183 replies to this topic

[Chef Kerensky]

NomadWolf991, on 23 March 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

You IS guy must tell me how the haterade tastes. Its really off putting when in quick play i don't melt from an IS LL at max range but in Faction play I do but seeing as its just me i guess ill just keep playing and going oh wait a month back it felt more balanced but now Clan cant even leave drop without being slagged. But its just me ^^

??????

[Wanderer of the Mists]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

Vxheous and AWOL can roll through 95% of their matches in Clan mechs with a win. I know, I spent a week dropping with them and watching them do it. MS wins about 90% with Clan mechs, I know, I dropped with them and watched them do it.

Could go on and on and on.

@ All The Clanners Who Think IS Is OP:

Look, I realize this can feel offensive. It's not intended that way. The problem though is that you're bad at the game. That's okay; most of you have never had the opportunity to learn to get good. Never had a reason to - you learned to play with mechs that were flat out OP and that felt 'normal' to you, so you never had to learn to build good mechs, positioning, how to torso twist and how to win trades, how to position and what the right way to approach a firing line is.

IS players largely did. Oh there's tons and tons of terribad IS players. However on average the IS pugs are better than the Clan pugs out of necessity. Also most IS players are in units at this point save for the absolute newbies, for much the same reason. These are skills they had to learn over the 2 years Clans were OP as ****.

Now suddenly the advantages that were carrying you are gone and it's a level field, only the other guy spent his time getting swole and doing sprints with weights on his back while you were riding a scooty-puff. Now it's time to make your offerings to Brodin and get mecha-swole, eat your GITGUD whey and do your 5x5s.

What's really stupid is that groups like AWOL put a lot of effort into trying to train their factions pugs on how to play better, build better mechs and use winning strategies. Nobody wanted to. So you're bad because you want to be bad. Right now you're trying to make up the excuse that IS mechs are better, the problem is that everyone who's actually played both and isn't actually demonstratively bad at the game can confirm that's not true.

MS is in CSJ, rolling wins non-stop in Clan mechs. When I dropped with them I heard every single match 'Clan mechs are OP'. This was stated, pretty much universally, by people who are bad at the game.

I get that we try to avoid saying that to people. That you're bad at the game. The problem is that right now if you're getting stomped non-stop and feel like you have no chance, it's because you're bad at the game. There's more to FW than showing up. Teamwork, coordination, positioning, deck synergy, situational awareness, all of these are as important or more so than the mech build itself and your aim though those are important too.

If you're in Clans and you're getting stomped then for the love of god go find some good Clan players to play with for a bit and see why they are winning and you're losing.

Because, again. Good players are still winning in Clans against IS. Balance is as close as it's ever been. If you're losing it's not because the game is imbalanced; it's because the skill level between your team and the other team is imbalanced. It's because you're bad at the game.

Fortunately you can get good. You just need to be willing to learn how.

thanks for saying I'm bad at the game when I'm not that bad i know team work and the other skills I'm not the best bur not playing for 2 years due to being in the military i love how all of you keep saying that i want it nerfed i was just wondering if anyone else felt it was I realize it will take time an practice but when I peek out and lose my armor in one shot again i never said anything about balancing it just seemed weird. you all keep going on about saying its op I said it felt odd felt like it was. I haven't looked into the changes it just feels like hit for hit they do more damage. where as I don't with the clan equivalent. Its probably the build or equipment they have vs. what i have i just was making the point that it seemed off to me.

[Wanderer of the Mists]

Chef Kerensky, on 23 March 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

??????

Sarcasm

[Vxheous]

NomadWolf991, on 23 March 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

thanks for saying I'm bad at the game when I'm not that bad i know team work and the other skills I'm not the best bur not playing for 2 years due to being in the military i love how all of you keep saying that i want it nerfed i was just wondering if anyone else felt it was I realize it will take time an practice but when I peek out and lose my armor in one shot again i never said anything about balancing it just seemed weird. you all keep going on about saying its op I said it felt odd felt like it was. I haven't looked into the changes it just feels like hit for hit they do more damage. where as I don't with the clan equivalent. Its probably the build or equipment they have vs. what i have i just was making the point that it seemed off to me.

First....do you frontload your armor? Second, you might be poking up in an area that is a high traffic area, which means chances are there will be people just waiting for someone to poke up there and get free damage on.

[KinLuu]

I do not know if IS is significantly stronger than clan right now, but for me, currently my best performing mechs are all IS mechs.

[MischiefSC]

Tarogato, on 23 March 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

This post would make sense... if the IS superiority weren't objective at the moment. It used to be that Clans were objectively better - higher alpha, better speed, more range. But now the tables are turned, IS can survive at least two extra alphas more than previously due to structure quirks which allows so many more of them to safely run XLs and pack more firepower, they are on par with maneuverability due to movement quirks which helps their survivability, they have faster burn times, and run cooler.

Is IS OP right now? No. Is it objectively better? I don't think you could argue otherwise without anecdotal evidence such as "well, Clan teams can still win in CW so balance must be fine". But meh... what does it matter. Both sides are going to have crappy players that bicker over the fence that the other side gets developer favouritism even if balance were perfect... helI, some people will cry about balance even during a phase when *their* side is the stronger one. _{(see: Gyrok)}

Correction. Select IS mechs are now better than select Clan mechs. Best performer in every category is Clan still. The only difference in heavies is that the TBR/HBR/EBJ are not flat out clownshoes superior in all ways, there's some give and take. If your TBR gets within 300m of a BK who has carefully avoided shooting anyone else but you he has good odds of killing a TBR at close range with 2 alphas - at which point he's heatcapped. Otherwise a decent TBR pilot who is faster, has better survivability (Clan XL) can trade a longer burn time for the same alpha and literally 50% more range and 3 alphas vs 2, with faster heat dissipation to boot. Plus, you know. 400-600m he's puking over 40pts for the BKs ~20 with better heat management.

Shot BKs and Grasshoppers in the ST. Either one. That's the easiest way for me to tell the caliber of my opponents when I'm in IS; HBR/TBR/EBJ can focus off my torso (quirks and all) with about the same damage (or less) than I have to put on the TBRs CT. I've got a shorter burn so I can twist but he's got way more range. If he's not terrible he's already 1 alpha up on me before I've closed to my range.

Lights? Jenner or ACH. By a mile.

Mediums? BJ isn't what it was, that's for sure. SCR is just flat out better - sorta moot though as most Clan decks are 3 heavies and a light or 4 heavies. Putting in a medium means leaving a better tool on the table most the time - some go 2 TBRs and 2 SCRs, especially if they love dem streaks. Assaults? Probably closest place IS has to an advantage, though it's situational. On hot maps when attacking the Mauler is amazing.

I get that it's offensive to tell people the problem is that they're bad at the game. That's the reality of it though. It's not intended to be offensive - everyone isn't great at everything. Being good at something is a process and there's always going to be people better than you. That isn't so much a failing as it is an observation of how humans work.

If you're trying to blame mech balance right now for why you constantly lose then the problem is you. Units win wherever they are. Not because of cheats or hacks or dark sorcery but by the collection and sharing of knowledge and skills; same reason humans have been gathering into groups since before they could be identified as 'human'.

Playing Clan vs Clan isn't easier than Clan vs IS, or IS vs IS for that matter. Different skill sets, absolutely. All that's really changed is that it takes as much effort to be 'good' in Clans now as it does to be 'good' in IS (though less total mechs to buy).

[Charles Sennet]

Carl Vickers, on 23 March 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

Balance is the best it has ever been, only 1 real step left, normalize IS XL's with clans.

Both sides have their advantages and when either side plays to those advantages they win.

What advantages do Clans have exactly? The big advantages of superior DPS, armor, and pinpoint damage are all on the IS side. What's left?

[iLLcapitan]

Charles Sennet, on 24 March 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

What advantages do Clans have exactly? The big advantages of superior DPS, armor, and pinpoint damage are all on the IS side. What's left?

Don't bother reading some of the stuff written in this threat, you'll probably won't see the truth anyhow because your view is partially covered by the salt melange.

[Charles Sennet]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 03:59 AM, said:

Correction. Select IS mechs are now better than select Clan mechs. Best performer in every category is Clan still. The only difference in heavies is that the TBR/HBR/EBJ are not flat out clownshoes superior in all ways, there's some give and take. If your TBR gets within 300m of a BK who has carefully avoided shooting anyone else but you he has good odds of killing a TBR at close range with 2 alphas - at which point he's heatcapped. Otherwise a decent TBR pilot who is faster, has better survivability (Clan XL) can trade a longer burn time for the same alpha and literally 50% more range and 3 alphas vs 2, with faster heat dissipation to boot. Plus, you know. 400-600m he's puking over 40pts for the BKs ~20 with better heat management.

Shot BKs and Grasshoppers in the ST. Either one. That's the easiest way for me to tell the caliber of my opponents when I'm in IS; HBR/TBR/EBJ can focus off my torso (quirks and all) with about the same damage (or less) than I have to put on the TBRs CT. I've got a shorter burn so I can twist but he's got way more range. If he's not terrible he's already 1 alpha up on me before I've closed to my range.

Lights? Jenner or ACH. By a mile.

Mediums? BJ isn't what it was, that's for sure. SCR is just flat out better - sorta moot though as most Clan decks are 3 heavies and a light or 4 heavies. Putting in a medium means leaving a better tool on the table most the time - some go 2 TBRs and 2 SCRs, especially if they love dem streaks. Assaults? Probably closest place IS has to an advantage, though it's situational. On hot maps when attacking the Mauler is amazing.

I get that it's offensive to tell people the problem is that they're bad at the game. That's the reality of it though. It's not intended to be offensive - everyone isn't great at everything. Being good at something is a process and there's always going to be people better than you. That isn't so much a failing as it is an observation of how humans work.

If you're trying to blame mech balance right now for why you constantly lose then the problem is you. Units win wherever they are. Not because of cheats or hacks or dark sorcery but by the collection and sharing of knowledge and skills; same reason humans have been gathering into groups since before they could be identified as 'human'.

Playing Clan vs Clan isn't easier than Clan vs IS, or IS vs IS for that matter. Different skill sets, absolutely. All that's really changed is that it takes as much effort to be 'good' in Clans now as it does to be 'good' in IS (though less total mechs to buy).

IS has the best assault (Atlas) and the best heavy (Black Knight). It's closer on mediums and lights I somewhat agree, but 'not by a mile' as you say. Plus, its not possible to win FW with lights and mediums. Faced a wave of Atlases and Black Knights lately? I have. Many of them. Clans simply have no answer for that. And its game over regardless of how many side torsos you manage to isolate.

The pendulum swung too far and there are simply too many IS players out there who want to protect their advantage. You're drowning out the truth. But, in the end, it will not matter that much because people will just continue to leave Clans and you will not have many left to fight. Many in my former unit left already. Why? Because anyone in their objective mind right now can tell that IS is easier for them. Others will follow, and eventually, IS will not have anyone to fight but themselves. Congrats on your empty victory.

Edited by Charles Sennet, 24 March 2016 - 04:51 AM.

[iLLcapitan]

lol
...
I can't hear it anymore.
...
braindamage inflicted... emergency mode activated... git gut, git gut, git gut

[Rushin Roulette]

Tarogato, on 23 March 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

This post would make sense... if the IS superiority weren't objective at the moment. It used to be that Clans were objectively better - higher alpha, better speed, more range. But now the tables are turned, IS can survive at least two extra alphas more than previously due to structure quirks which allows so many more of them to safely run XLs and pack more firepower, they are on par with maneuverability due to movement quirks which helps their survivability, they have faster burn times, and run cooler.

Seriously? IS can safely run XLs? ... ermm... hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha (extend this as needed). Bringing an XL on an IS mech over 40 Tons is still a fast suicide with the exception of a few very specific builds.

IS mechs have better speed? Absolutely nothing has changed here. IS mechs still have a massive speed range. Compared to Clan mechs this is a massive disadvantage. Want to wait till that Stalker finally arrives? get ready for a long wait in your Thunderbolt. Want to wait till that Warhawk arrives in your Timberwolf? Oh yes... he as been right next to you or close behind the whole time. Coordinating pushed of clan mechs is so much simpler, because they nearly all run 81 KPH +/- a few KPH and a few exceptions.

IS mechs have higher alphas? Never was true, still isnt true and never will be true. However building intelligent alphas seems to be too difficult for some clan players... they either have too many different ranges to juggle, too much heat and too little patience with their trigger finger to be able to use high heat builds. Combine that with the inability to torso twist or maneuver with their team and you have the reason for them being terrible.

As to the point about surviving 1 or 2 alphas longer... this shouldnt be an issue at all. One alpha is 40 damage on average.. even if mechs were to be able to be able to survive that extra damage... it is 3,3 points of damage per player in a focused team. That is less than one medium laser per player if focus fire is executed correctly and means a survival of less than 1 second longer for a target... everyone spreading their damage around like a pr0nstar at the end of a shooting? That may be the reason why IS seem to survive much longer than you want. not the structure buffs.

P. S. The structure buffs of the only IS mech everyone was whining about have been toned down a month ago...

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 24 March 2016 - 05:12 AM.

[Wanderer of the Mists]

Charles Sennet, on 24 March 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

IS has the best assault (Atlas) and the best heavy (Black Knight). It's closer on mediums and lights I somewhat agree, but 'not by a mile' as you say. Plus, its not possible to win FW with lights and mediums. Faced a wave of Atlases and Black Knights lately? I have. Many of them. Clans simply have no answer for that. And its game over regardless of how many side torsos you manage to isolate.

The pendulum swung too far and there are simply too many IS players out there who want to protect their advantage. You're drowning out the truth. But, in the end, it will not matter that much because people will just continue to leave Clans and you will not have many left to fight. Many in my former unit left already. Why? Because anyone in their objective mind right now can tell that IS is easier for them. Others will follow, and eventually, IS will not have anyone to fight but themselves. Congrats on your empty victory.

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 03:59 AM, said:

Correction. Select IS mechs are now better than select Clan mechs. Best performer in every category is Clan still. The only difference in heavies is that the TBR/HBR/EBJ are not flat out clownshoes superior in all ways, there's some give and take. If your TBR gets within 300m of a BK who has carefully avoided shooting anyone else but you he has good odds of killing a TBR at close range with 2 alphas - at which point he's heatcapped. Otherwise a decent TBR pilot who is faster, has better survivability (Clan XL) can trade a longer burn time for the same alpha and literally 50% more range and 3 alphas vs 2, with faster heat dissipation to boot. Plus, you know. 400-600m he's puking over 40pts for the BKs ~20 with better heat management.

Shot BKs and Grasshoppers in the ST. Either one. That's the easiest way for me to tell the caliber of my opponents when I'm in IS; HBR/TBR/EBJ can focus off my torso (quirks and all) with about the same damage (or less) than I have to put on the TBRs CT. I've got a shorter burn so I can twist but he's got way more range. If he's not terrible he's already 1 alpha up on me before I've closed to my range.

Lights? Jenner or ACH. By a mile.

Mediums? BJ isn't what it was, that's for sure. SCR is just flat out better - sorta moot though as most Clan decks are 3 heavies and a light or 4 heavies. Putting in a medium means leaving a better tool on the table most the time - some go 2 TBRs and 2 SCRs, especially if they love dem streaks. Assaults? Probably closest place IS has to an advantage, though it's situational. On hot maps when attacking the Mauler is amazing.

I get that it's offensive to tell people the problem is that they're bad at the game. That's the reality of it though. It's not intended to be offensive - everyone isn't great at everything. Being good at something is a process and there's always going to be people better than you. That isn't so much a failing as it is an observation of how humans work.

If you're trying to blame mech balance right now for why you constantly lose then the problem is you. Units win wherever they are. Not because of cheats or hacks or dark sorcery but by the collection and sharing of knowledge and skills; same reason humans have been gathering into groups since before they could be identified as 'human'.

Playing Clan vs Clan isn't easier than Clan vs IS, or IS vs IS for that matter. Different skill sets, absolutely. All that's really changed is that it takes as much effort to be 'good' in Clans now as it does to be 'good' in IS (though less total mechs to buy).

Thank you both these posts made more sense to me the you just suck from the others. As stated I was just wondering if anyone else felt the same way it will take time for me to get used to it I do t want anything nerfed because that's how games get runed I really appreciate someone actually talking about it more that just saying that I don't know how to play I know I don't know how to do everything the best but I'm learning. It sucks to me because I've read that the tbr has been nerfed nut I deal with it because I've loved it all the way back to MW2 on PC and I will play it no matter how many times it's nerfed. Unfortunately I'll have to just switch two of my mechs from brawlers due to not being able to get within range of the enemy but that's easy compared to the devs over balancing the game (not saying they have). So far from what I've read here seams like it's just me which is fine but don't burn me for asking a question cause that just makes me think that I'm right and you IS scum are trying to protect your advantage like I'm sure some of you though back when tbr first came out.

[Wanderer of the Mists]

iLLcapitan, on 24 March 2016 - 04:54 AM, said:

lol
...
I can't hear it anymore.
...
braindamage inflicted... emergency mode activated... git gut, git gut, git gut

Ohh look another one IS that wants to chase away players tell the game dies I've seen it happen to other games like this due to players not wanting to actually help new players and instead just saying they are bad I know I'm bad at the game but I can get better and I will seems to me that those IS that have there flamers on full are afraid of clans actually being able to fight back

I like constructive criticism not you suck so thank you everyone who actually said something other that you suck bro because that's something I already know

Edited by NomadWolf991, 24 March 2016 - 05:27 AM.

[maniacos]

In a clan Mech you have speed and range, you need to use it. Clans will mostly win over IS on long range tradings when the skills of the pilots match. For IS it's advised to get the distance down and push the clan opponent as a group with holding cover for most of the distance.
Also remember that Clan are supposed to be stronger in tabletop, so you would get 12 vs 10 to even out the differences. In MW:O you always match 12 vs 12, that's why they gave quirks to IS to get the balance back. This doesn't work always but it are sometimes the IS that are in disadvantage and sometimes Clan.

[Wanderer of the Mists]

maniacos, on 24 March 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

In a clan Mech you have speed and range, you need to use it. Clans will mostly win over IS on long range tradings when the skills of the pilots match. For IS it's advised to get the distance down and push the clan opponent as a group with holding cover for most of the distance.
Also remember that Clan are supposed to be stronger in tabletop, so you would get 12 vs 10 to even out the differences. In MW:O you always match 12 vs 12, that's why they gave quirks to IS to get the balance back. This doesn't work always but it are sometimes the IS that are in disadvantage and sometimes Clan.

Thank You this was helpful I'm already trying to figure out how to change my TBRs to be more useful.

im open to sugestions other that get a new mech or go to IS i kinda wish i could just go merc and run my TBR on eather side like the Bounty Hunter in the tabletop.

Edited by NomadWolf991, 24 March 2016 - 06:32 AM.

[Divine Retribution]

OP- If you are looking for constructive criticism or advice I'll offer some. Perhaps your perception of imbalance is a combination of build and the circumstances surrounding when you seem to melt. I don't recall ever playing with or against you, so I'm just offering ideas and general purpose advice. Ignore whatever doesn't apply to you.

The first is from you posting your twin PPCs don't seem to phase the enemy. It's because they don't. Unless they are carried on a mech quirked for it (mostly the warhawk), the clan ERPPC is one of the worst investments you can make. In a situation where you and the enemy were both exposed they probably unloaded 47 - 53 damage into you while you returned with 20 (+10 to components you didn't care about damaging). With quirks, they probably did it for close to the same heat as 2 unquirked clan ERPPCs. It just wasn't a good trade for you.

For general purpose weapons suited to most combat situations I'd recommend UAC/10s, Large Pulses, and ER Mediums. Also, it isn't necessary to fill every weapon hardpoint. 2 LPLs + 3-4 ERMeds or 2 UAC/10s + 2-3 ERMeds work. If you know you will be fighting at short range SRMs and ERSmalls/Small Pulses works as does my personal favorite, the 4 SRM 6 + UAC/20 Timberwolf.

With the multitude of choke points in CW it's likely you were also being shot at by multiple enemies. Seriously front load armor (I think my highest back armor on a CW mech is 8, some as little as 2) and make sure your team is going to be behind you before you walk into one of those choke points. I won't go into the players that don't want to scratch their paint or lack bravery, just don't go in if you aren't sure your team is behind you.

Finally, don't forget the basics. Torso twist, focus fire, stick with the team.

[Tasker]

NomadWolf991, on 23 March 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

thanks for saying I'm bad at the game when I'm not that bad i know team work and the other skills

He's right. The first key to getting better at the game and becoming good at it is accepting that you need to get better because you are not good.

[Kerc Kasha]

Charles Sennet, on 24 March 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

IS has the best assault (Atlas) and the best heavy (Black Knight). It's closer on mediums and lights I somewhat agree, but 'not by a mile' as you say. Plus, its not possible to win FW with lights and mediums. Faced a wave of Atlases and Black Knights lately? I have. Many of them. Clans simply have no answer for that. And its game over regardless of how many side torsos you manage to isolate.

The pendulum swung too far and there are simply too many IS players out there who want to protect their advantage. You're drowning out the truth. But, in the end, it will not matter that much because people will just continue to leave Clans and you will not have many left to fight. Many in my former unit left already. Why? Because anyone in their objective mind right now can tell that IS is easier for them. Others will follow, and eventually, IS will not have anyone to fight but themselves. Congrats on your empty victory.

Holy crap we got a live one

[Wanderer of the Mists]

Divine Retribution, on 24 March 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

OP- If you are looking for constructive criticism or advice I'll offer some. Perhaps your perception of imbalance is a combination of build and the circumstances surrounding when you seem to melt. I don't recall ever playing with or against you, so I'm just offering ideas and general purpose advice. Ignore whatever doesn't apply to you.

The first is from you posting your twin PPCs don't seem to phase the enemy. It's because they don't. Unless they are carried on a mech quirked for it (mostly the warhawk), the clan ERPPC is one of the worst investments you can make. In a situation where you and the enemy were both exposed they probably unloaded 47 - 53 damage into you while you returned with 20 (+10 to components you didn't care about damaging). With quirks, they probably did it for close to the same heat as 2 unquirked clan ERPPCs. It just wasn't a good trade for you.

For general purpose weapons suited to most combat situations I'd recommend UAC/10s, Large Pulses, and ER Mediums. Also, it isn't necessary to fill every weapon hardpoint. 2 LPLs + 3-4 ERMeds or 2 UAC/10s + 2-3 ERMeds work. If you know you will be fighting at short range SRMs and ERSmalls/Small Pulses works as does my personal favorite, the 4 SRM 6 + UAC/20 Timberwolf.

With the multitude of choke points in CW it's likely you were also being shot at by multiple enemies. Seriously front load armor (I think my highest back armor on a CW mech is 8, some as little as 2) and make sure your team is going to be behind you before you walk into one of those choke points. I won't go into the players that don't want to scratch their paint or lack bravery, just don't go in if you aren't sure your team is behind you.

Finally, don't forget the basics. Torso twist, focus fire, stick with the team.

Thank you ill have to try that last one seems fun I'm usual the one with the assaults because I know their inportant to the battle as well as i used to run them tell TBR came out. im still working on the basics but im getting better i dont die instantly any more. as for brawler I'm new to it so Im rather terrable at it but with every failure as long as I dont repeat it and learn from it I'll get better.

[Wanderer of the Mists]

Tasker, on 24 March 2016 - 06:38 AM, said:

He's right. The first key to getting better at the game and becoming good at it is accepting that you need to get better because you are not good.

Im more than willing thats why I kept saying i dont want it to change unless there really is a problem i would much rather learn to beat the IS at ther best then have the devs cheat me of a learning experience. really i was looking for a discussion and tips over saying IS is OP if it was more than just me saying there was an issue it might need to be changed but it seems to be just me so I have to change my tactics.