The 2N is a good striker.
The 0Xp... well it doesn't do laser bulimia well and it doesn't do dakka well...
So AC20+lasers is about all you can do.
The tempest... is an archer with too few hard points to srm spam so you're stuck either as a lurm boat or a laser vomit type with terrible hit boxes.
1
Thoughts On Is Ecm Mechs
Started by Davegt27, Mar 27 2016 12:31 PM
41 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 08:12 AM
OP was asking only about the 2N and 0xp, but since most others above are chiming in with general thoughts on ECM as well as all of the other IS ECM mechs I may as well too:
In re ECM in general: after the last nerf, ECM as something that was really useful to you and the team became much less so. If I am bringing ECM I try and pick one heavy hitter to shadow and protect from LRMs or detection. But trying to protect more than 1 companion is almost impossible. Thus, even in this latest round of LRM popularity ECM is just not that big a deal anymore.
That said, ECM can still be useful to a light or fast mover who is spotting, sniping or harassing. The Spider for spotting, Raven 3L for sniping, and the Pirates Bane and Commando for harassing/squirreling. To an lesser extent the Cicada 3M can do all of these roles as well, but it suffers from a relatively large profile.
Skipping the Griffin for a moment, the IS heavies have the 0xp and now the Tempest. The only role that I think the 0xp can still fill with reasonable usefulness (note I did not say it excels, nor did I say it was particularly good) is that of a fast heavy escort on a first wave assault or counter push in CW. With enough of em, you might be able to provide reasonable ECM coverage with decent firepower. Builds I have run include with a std 300 include: 4LL, 3LPL, AC/20 & 4MPL. Back during the T-bolt SS days I would take a AC/20 and 4ML build with a std 325 to move at 80kph. Problem with the 0xp is 2 fold. First, all but the single ballistic mount are located in the arms. Those, low, low slung gorilla arms. Unless you are really cognizant of that, you will shoot an awful lot of terrain as opposed to enemies. Second problem is, as I said above, the usefulness of ECM in the first place. If you accept that ECM just isn't that useful anymore, then there are way better mechs at or around 70 tons that outperform the Cataphract in terms of hard point number and locations (see Marauder), thus the Cataphract is essentially obsolete.
Tempest is the new 0xp. Thus far I'm running it with 3LPLs or just 2, and then 4ML. Either seems about the same effectiveness-wise. I wanted to avoid the use of the damn bay doors, which seems to double the target height of the mech. Thus, the running of lasers and skipping missiles altogether. The somewhat taller profile and marginally higher weapons mounts of the Archer makes the Tempest a slightly better choice for the LPL or LL build I once ran in the 0xp.
Atlas DDC has been saved by its most recent buff. While, it makes a great spear tip mech, most Atlases can do that job, so again the ECM -which used to be its defining feature- is really now just AMS that doesn't need ammo. I find the ECM on the DDC to be more useful once the battle is joined so that I know when a light is sneaking up on you (set to counter if for some reason I don't have seismic).
The Griffin. Probably the best of the lot if you really want to bring ECM. Can build a lot of really effective mechs that can be useful on a wide variety of maps. If you are still one of those people that think ECM is essential (because LRMS!!) then the 2N is a good choice for both the individual and the team. It is tough enough to dish and take damage and fast enough to get to where the precious ECM might be needed.
TLDR: ECM is no longer a big deal to anything other than sneaky lights. General purpose ECM mech is epitomized in the Griffin but only if you still believe ECM has much value against LRMs.
In re ECM in general: after the last nerf, ECM as something that was really useful to you and the team became much less so. If I am bringing ECM I try and pick one heavy hitter to shadow and protect from LRMs or detection. But trying to protect more than 1 companion is almost impossible. Thus, even in this latest round of LRM popularity ECM is just not that big a deal anymore.
That said, ECM can still be useful to a light or fast mover who is spotting, sniping or harassing. The Spider for spotting, Raven 3L for sniping, and the Pirates Bane and Commando for harassing/squirreling. To an lesser extent the Cicada 3M can do all of these roles as well, but it suffers from a relatively large profile.
Skipping the Griffin for a moment, the IS heavies have the 0xp and now the Tempest. The only role that I think the 0xp can still fill with reasonable usefulness (note I did not say it excels, nor did I say it was particularly good) is that of a fast heavy escort on a first wave assault or counter push in CW. With enough of em, you might be able to provide reasonable ECM coverage with decent firepower. Builds I have run include with a std 300 include: 4LL, 3LPL, AC/20 & 4MPL. Back during the T-bolt SS days I would take a AC/20 and 4ML build with a std 325 to move at 80kph. Problem with the 0xp is 2 fold. First, all but the single ballistic mount are located in the arms. Those, low, low slung gorilla arms. Unless you are really cognizant of that, you will shoot an awful lot of terrain as opposed to enemies. Second problem is, as I said above, the usefulness of ECM in the first place. If you accept that ECM just isn't that useful anymore, then there are way better mechs at or around 70 tons that outperform the Cataphract in terms of hard point number and locations (see Marauder), thus the Cataphract is essentially obsolete.
Tempest is the new 0xp. Thus far I'm running it with 3LPLs or just 2, and then 4ML. Either seems about the same effectiveness-wise. I wanted to avoid the use of the damn bay doors, which seems to double the target height of the mech. Thus, the running of lasers and skipping missiles altogether. The somewhat taller profile and marginally higher weapons mounts of the Archer makes the Tempest a slightly better choice for the LPL or LL build I once ran in the 0xp.
Atlas DDC has been saved by its most recent buff. While, it makes a great spear tip mech, most Atlases can do that job, so again the ECM -which used to be its defining feature- is really now just AMS that doesn't need ammo. I find the ECM on the DDC to be more useful once the battle is joined so that I know when a light is sneaking up on you (set to counter if for some reason I don't have seismic).
The Griffin. Probably the best of the lot if you really want to bring ECM. Can build a lot of really effective mechs that can be useful on a wide variety of maps. If you are still one of those people that think ECM is essential (because LRMS!!) then the 2N is a good choice for both the individual and the team. It is tough enough to dish and take damage and fast enough to get to where the precious ECM might be needed.
TLDR: ECM is no longer a big deal to anything other than sneaky lights. General purpose ECM mech is epitomized in the Griffin but only if you still believe ECM has much value against LRMs.
#24
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- Moderate Giver
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 09:39 AM
Well, mostly we just wanted them to finally fix ecm. They did that in the test server and then for some unknown reason decided not to patch it live....
But for IS ecm my thoughts -
Raven-3L - still the best
Griffin-2N - pretty dang good
(most of the other IS lights with ecm)
Ctf-0XP - it's decent.
Tied for last are the Atlas and the Commando - they may as well move the same speed (pretty much do per armor rating).
Both are just too f'n slow to carry the module, Atlas might edge it out because it can actually carry more useful weapons.
2D would be far better if you at least had the option to run the xl240 engine.
But for IS ecm my thoughts -
Raven-3L - still the best
Griffin-2N - pretty dang good
(most of the other IS lights with ecm)
Ctf-0XP - it's decent.
Tied for last are the Atlas and the Commando - they may as well move the same speed (pretty much do per armor rating).
Both are just too f'n slow to carry the module, Atlas might edge it out because it can actually carry more useful weapons.
2D would be far better if you at least had the option to run the xl240 engine.
#25
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 09:57 AM
Khobai, on 27 March 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:
ECM should not even grant stealth. That was one of the worst design decisions ever made for the game.
Never played TT or read lore so it seems like a feature that most games have in some way.
Before the HBR most ecm were in a sub par weight area and had bad energy points or other restrictions with the Raven and Atlas being the leaders.
The HBR and the then the Cheetah changed that, but only for the clan. The HBR high hardpoints with the ability to have high hardpoints on the other torso and in the head while keeping ECM pretty much does give credence to what I quoted above.
Edited by Mech Jager, 28 March 2016 - 10:38 AM.
#26
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 11:48 AM
Quote
Never played TT or read lore so it seems like a feature that most games have in some way.
ECM doesnt grant full on immunity to LRMs in the other games.
In mechwarrior 4 all ECM did was reduce the range you could be detected at by 20% (not 75% like in MWO), but active probe increased the range you could detect at by 20% so they cancelled out (BAP doesnt even increase the range at which you detect ECM mechs in MWO).
But in tabletop ECM doesnt grant stealth at all. There is equipment that grants stealth called Null Signature System and that has all the appropriate downsides required to cancel out something as good as stealth.
Edited by Khobai, 28 March 2016 - 11:49 AM.
#27
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- The Hammer
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 11:54 AM
TercieI, on 27 March 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:
2N is solid, though slightly inferior to the 3M as a SRM brawler. The 0XP is, like the entire CTF chassis, irrelevant.
which is odd to me.
I agree the CTF should be irrelevant, and on paper the 2N should be a contender. Yet my CTF-0xp (a gift) is the one running a 3.31 KDr. It's not the most exciting loadout (ac20, MLasers, ECM.... used to run it with a Super Stock MAD-3R build...until the MAD 3R came out.... sadly I think the MAD looks like a HotTurd, so I still prefer to run the CTF), but it smokes the exceedingly embarrassing 0.33 KDr I have on my Griffin... and I'm a Medium Mech guy! (And all my other GRFs are over 2.0 KDr)
Twilight Zone, dude. *SMH*
zephoidb, on 28 March 2016 - 05:49 AM, said:
The 0xp is awful. It has a total of 5 weapon hardpoints, 4 on the bottom of its its low slung arms. Even the torso Ballistic, which SHOULD be a high mount, is low. I was so hopeful for the 0xp because of that shoulder mount that was unique to that variant. It has ONE very mediocre build, AC20 and 4x mpl.
http://www.sarna.net...ract_CTF-0X.jpg
Tempest is pretty good with a variety of builds. Probably the best of the sad lot. Raven is also good, though everything it does, the Shadow Cat does just as well or better. The Griffin suffers from a lack of any standout quality. It isn't very tonnage efficient and quirks aren't able to put it into any great builds.
http://www.sarna.net...ract_CTF-0X.jpg
Tempest is pretty good with a variety of builds. Probably the best of the sad lot. Raven is also good, though everything it does, the Shadow Cat does just as well or better. The Griffin suffers from a lack of any standout quality. It isn't very tonnage efficient and quirks aren't able to put it into any great builds.
You might notice that you posted the "ZERO-EX".
What we have in game, is the "ZERO EX PEE".
Not the same robot.
#28
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 12:36 PM
Bishop Steiner, on 28 March 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:
which is odd to me.
I agree the CTF should be irrelevant, and on paper the 2N should be a contender. Yet my CTF-0xp (a gift) is the one running a 3.31 KDr. It's not the most exciting loadout (ac20, MLasers, ECM.... used to run it with a Super Stock MAD-3R build...until the MAD 3R came out.... sadly I think the MAD looks like a HotTurd, so I still prefer to run the CTF), but it smokes the exceedingly embarrassing 0.33 KDr I have on my Griffin... and I'm a Medium Mech guy! (And all my other GRFs are over 2.0 KDr)
Twilight Zone, dude. *SMH*
I agree the CTF should be irrelevant, and on paper the 2N should be a contender. Yet my CTF-0xp (a gift) is the one running a 3.31 KDr. It's not the most exciting loadout (ac20, MLasers, ECM.... used to run it with a Super Stock MAD-3R build...until the MAD 3R came out.... sadly I think the MAD looks like a HotTurd, so I still prefer to run the CTF), but it smokes the exceedingly embarrassing 0.33 KDr I have on my Griffin... and I'm a Medium Mech guy! (And all my other GRFs are over 2.0 KDr)
Twilight Zone, dude. *SMH*
PUG life.
I haven't actually run the 0XP (mastered CTFs long ago and it did nothing to make me want it), but it is a pain to level SRM brawlers like the 2N in solo queue in the current meta, no matter how good they are or you are with them.
#29
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 12:48 PM
My opinions... Are probably irrelevant because I am very easily amused.
I have 4 IS ECM Mechs. Raven 3L and Cicada 3M I like to run with ECM and twin PPCs. Yes, PPCs. More fun than you can possibly imagine due to the playstyle required to pull it off, but I really like not having to worry about laser burn time and i learned to lead targets on a 56k modem... Heheh.
The Griffen 2N I prefer with XL300, 4 JJs, 4 SRM6's, and about 7-8 tons of Ammo... If you can manage to run out of ammo, then you know you had an awesome match.
Cataphract 0XP I only ran long enough to basic it so I could master my Ilya. However, I did successfully cause many an enemy to crap their pants with AC/20 and twin PPCs. 40pts of damage with 1 click and no burn time. Really fun. Really hot, but you can fall back to the AC/20 when things heat up.
I have 4 IS ECM Mechs. Raven 3L and Cicada 3M I like to run with ECM and twin PPCs. Yes, PPCs. More fun than you can possibly imagine due to the playstyle required to pull it off, but I really like not having to worry about laser burn time and i learned to lead targets on a 56k modem... Heheh.
The Griffen 2N I prefer with XL300, 4 JJs, 4 SRM6's, and about 7-8 tons of Ammo... If you can manage to run out of ammo, then you know you had an awesome match.
Cataphract 0XP I only ran long enough to basic it so I could master my Ilya. However, I did successfully cause many an enemy to crap their pants with AC/20 and twin PPCs. 40pts of damage with 1 click and no burn time. Really fun. Really hot, but you can fall back to the AC/20 when things heat up.
#30
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 01:22 PM
I used to run the 0XP as many do here AC20 4xmpl's after a few months I dropped the MPL down to ordinary ML's and upped the engine size, plus extra heat sinks, found the extra speed easily cancelled out the extra burn time, plus it was cooler, and could damage out a bit further, as in FW many shoot the legs first I don't find the ML's spread more by torso twist.
2N I fail so much with this mech I don't know why, I do really well with the 1N(P) variant, as in 35th place in the phoenix rising Event using it exactly the same way, guess I don't really have much confidence in it.
D-DC I don't like running atlas without lasers of some sort which means it tends to be to slow for most Drop Commanders tastes since the speed tweak and most want a BLR or a stalker used nerf even the S I want a couple of medium lasers in for uav's its still brawly and good enough for pugs comp teams tend to take and S with ac20 and srm6, these days so srm hit reg must be in a sweet spot.
Cicada I use as a ppc sniper its ok but you can't be caught alone by lights.
the 3L I prefer to use a srm ml build and cover big jobs, i'd take a narc, but i'm kinda crap with it, you can see those things comming and duck so hats off to those that do a great narcing job
Other IS ECM lights
All Comando's are in a bad place if the 2d had four laser hard points like the Death Knell it would be ok, but it has one and missile hard points where you can't take enough ammo because its 25 tons.
the spider 5D used to cause the same angst the firestarter and the Arctic Cheater do now, back in the day it was erll and medium lasers or mpl's using jumpjet advantage and exceptional hit boxes or broken depending how you call it, these days its a bit meh as it can't brawl with the big boys and can't support and ankle bit around big mechs legs like the lucust can
2N I fail so much with this mech I don't know why, I do really well with the 1N(P) variant, as in 35th place in the phoenix rising Event using it exactly the same way, guess I don't really have much confidence in it.
D-DC I don't like running atlas without lasers of some sort which means it tends to be to slow for most Drop Commanders tastes since the speed tweak and most want a BLR or a stalker used nerf even the S I want a couple of medium lasers in for uav's its still brawly and good enough for pugs comp teams tend to take and S with ac20 and srm6, these days so srm hit reg must be in a sweet spot.
Cicada I use as a ppc sniper its ok but you can't be caught alone by lights.
the 3L I prefer to use a srm ml build and cover big jobs, i'd take a narc, but i'm kinda crap with it, you can see those things comming and duck so hats off to those that do a great narcing job
Other IS ECM lights
All Comando's are in a bad place if the 2d had four laser hard points like the Death Knell it would be ok, but it has one and missile hard points where you can't take enough ammo because its 25 tons.
the spider 5D used to cause the same angst the firestarter and the Arctic Cheater do now, back in the day it was erll and medium lasers or mpl's using jumpjet advantage and exceptional hit boxes or broken depending how you call it, these days its a bit meh as it can't brawl with the big boys and can't support and ankle bit around big mechs legs like the lucust can
#31
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 02:22 PM
Karmen Baric, on 27 March 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:
The Raven 3L is the best IS ECM mech. Is sad the IS has no good heavy ECM mechs,
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4a30f8913abf513
#32
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 03:35 PM
Roadkill, on 28 March 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:
Add Ferro, upgrade to a STD 300, and move the one external DHS into the engine. 
Good suggestions, and when I looked at my actual build (in-game) I already had Ferro+Endo on it. When I used Smurphy I was trying to remember the build that I used, but apparently I got part of it wrong. Not like I use it often
#33
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Posted 28 March 2016 - 10:33 PM
Wow you guys make it a hard decision lol
When I get a few more Mech bays and I will buy both
I am also thinking ahead to 4V4 and two ECM hunter killer team could shut down streaks but looking at the 2N hard points
Makes it an iffy choice
I sold one of my Cats to make room for the ECM Cat then forgot about the whole idea
Right now I take 2 Cats in my IS drop deck but I haven’t played IS in over 6 months
so I am sure I need to update my IS drop deck
When I get a few more Mech bays and I will buy both
I am also thinking ahead to 4V4 and two ECM hunter killer team could shut down streaks but looking at the 2N hard points
Makes it an iffy choice
I sold one of my Cats to make room for the ECM Cat then forgot about the whole idea
Right now I take 2 Cats in my IS drop deck but I haven’t played IS in over 6 months
so I am sure I need to update my IS drop deck
#34
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Posted 29 March 2016 - 02:22 AM
2N and 0XP are both decent.
2N i like with 4xSRM6A and a 300 XL. Stealthy fast close range skirmisher, it can make people cry in heavy terrain (and be killed in seconds if you get caught in the open).
0XP i use AC20+4xMLs, and a Std300. Simple and straightforward, it's a decent brawler, which can take a beating. I've often lead a push with it and soaked more damage than i really should be able to, all the while delivering AC20 shells to people... which in today's hyper-alpha warrior online is, shamefully, enough to have fun, but not enough to carry your team to victory.
2N i like with 4xSRM6A and a 300 XL. Stealthy fast close range skirmisher, it can make people cry in heavy terrain (and be killed in seconds if you get caught in the open).
0XP i use AC20+4xMLs, and a Std300. Simple and straightforward, it's a decent brawler, which can take a beating. I've often lead a push with it and soaked more damage than i really should be able to, all the while delivering AC20 shells to people... which in today's hyper-alpha warrior online is, shamefully, enough to have fun, but not enough to carry your team to victory.
Edited by TheCharlatan, 29 March 2016 - 02:23 AM.
#35
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Posted 29 March 2016 - 02:29 AM
Mister D, on 27 March 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:
Atlas-D-DC, king of the IS hill of garbage.
Locust- lagshield deluxe, not bad on firepower though for 25 tons. (7/10)
Spider- lol..lagshield terrorist (4/10)
Commando - inneffective (2/10)
Raven- still a great scout (7/10)
Griffin- underquirked paper tiger. (5/10)
Cataphract- crap hardpoints, decent structure (5/10)
Archer-T- havn't played (0/0)
Atlas-D-DC- kicks *** thanks to structure (9/10)
Locust- lagshield deluxe, not bad on firepower though for 25 tons. (7/10)
Spider- lol..lagshield terrorist (4/10)
Commando - inneffective (2/10)
Raven- still a great scout (7/10)
Griffin- underquirked paper tiger. (5/10)
Cataphract- crap hardpoints, decent structure (5/10)
Archer-T- havn't played (0/0)
Atlas-D-DC- kicks *** thanks to structure (9/10)
You have a 25 ton LOCUST???? Who did you have to suck on to get that?
#36
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Posted 29 March 2016 - 02:29 AM
Mister D, on 27 March 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:
Atlas-D-DC, king of the IS hill of garbage.
Locust- lagshield deluxe, not bad on firepower though for 25 tons. (7/10)
Spider- lol..lagshield terrorist (4/10)
Commando - inneffective (2/10)
Raven- still a great scout (7/10)
Griffin- underquirked paper tiger. (5/10)
Cataphract- crap hardpoints, decent structure (5/10)
Archer-T- havn't played (0/0)
Atlas-D-DC- kicks *** thanks to structure (9/10)
Locust- lagshield deluxe, not bad on firepower though for 25 tons. (7/10)
Spider- lol..lagshield terrorist (4/10)
Commando - inneffective (2/10)
Raven- still a great scout (7/10)
Griffin- underquirked paper tiger. (5/10)
Cataphract- crap hardpoints, decent structure (5/10)
Archer-T- havn't played (0/0)
Atlas-D-DC- kicks *** thanks to structure (9/10)
Locust - 20 tons, Pirates Bane is the only one that has ECM, but it severely lacks structure if comparet to the 1V variant which runs cooler and with more dps at longer range and has almost twice the structure
The only reason to go for PB is if you will act as an ECM umbrella, if you want an aggressive scout 1V is just much, much better.
Commando sodomizes the Locust, maybe even 2 at once. I have the locusts mastered and just bought a commando, I already pull consistently 2X larger numbers on it . SRMs > medium/small lasers
#37
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Posted 29 March 2016 - 04:56 AM
Alistair Winter, on 28 March 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:
GRF-2N is probably my all time best Inner Sphere mech. It may be a playstyle thing, but it's just full juggernaut-mode.
CTF-0XP is good, but it took me a long time to find a build that worked for me. I'm running 2xLPL, 2xML and Gauss. All other builds were quite average, at least in my hands. I don't like the AC20 on this mech, but ECM lets you snipe at long and mid-range with gauss (and LPL), at least on certain maps.
I wouldn't say the CTF-0XP is a top tier mech, but anyone who says that it's a downright bad mech either have a very wide definition of 'bad' (e.g. all heavy mechs except 2 or 3 are bad), or are simply bad players.
CTF-0XP is good, but it took me a long time to find a build that worked for me. I'm running 2xLPL, 2xML and Gauss. All other builds were quite average, at least in my hands. I don't like the AC20 on this mech, but ECM lets you snipe at long and mid-range with gauss (and LPL), at least on certain maps.
I wouldn't say the CTF-0XP is a top tier mech, but anyone who says that it's a downright bad mech either have a very wide definition of 'bad' (e.g. all heavy mechs except 2 or 3 are bad), or are simply bad players.
Gauss in a ST hardpoint? no thx.
0XP AC20 4xMPL for brawling fun.
#38
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- The Formidable
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Posted 29 March 2016 - 05:44 AM
I like the ecm atlas. I run it with gauss, 2 ER LL and 3 SRM6. It allows me to trade at range rather well and once you close in for the brawl, well 3 SRM6 are 3 SRM6. I use a std 325 in it iirc. I play mainly public matches with friends and the occasional CW if there are any people actually playing it. The ECM pretty much shuts down lrms at long range and allows you to approach undetected for longer. Really like this build.
#39
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- The Vicious
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Posted 29 March 2016 - 05:51 AM
I hated the GRF-2N when I bought it during the sale a couple of months ago. A 270m brawler in the current game gets old after a few drops. I tried a few different longer range builds, LRMs, Large Lasers, Dual ERPPC, Dual LPL.
All of them were uninspiring but I eventually went with 4 SRM4 and one ERPPC. I use SRM cooldown/range modules for about 2.5 second recycle. I also added max JJ and whatever XL to run about 95kph.
I start the match out using PPC taking pot shots from long range and try to stay fresh. The SRMs come in to finish the match or kill lights that come out to meet me. It's one of my favorite mechs to play now.
All of them were uninspiring but I eventually went with 4 SRM4 and one ERPPC. I use SRM cooldown/range modules for about 2.5 second recycle. I also added max JJ and whatever XL to run about 95kph.
I start the match out using PPC taking pot shots from long range and try to stay fresh. The SRMs come in to finish the match or kill lights that come out to meet me. It's one of my favorite mechs to play now.
#40
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Posted 29 March 2016 - 06:58 AM
I'm really surprised to see how many do use a gauss in a side torso, in a brawler chassis. you know a light hitting your back once means half mech is gone and done right?
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