86 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

1.) WHM-6D (3 LPL + 4 ML + XL330)

2.) BL-KNT-7-L (3 LPL + 5 ML + XL350)

3.) GHR-5P (3LPL + 4ML + XL330)

Do not have marauders...but, based on seeing them used, I would rate them #4

[Lukoi Banacek]

I'm going to rank order these with two major gaming categories in mind....12v12/8v8 "tryhard" play and CW.

1. BLKNT - weapons loadouts, structure quirks and the tonnage to go STD if you're not confident in your torso twist, but not completely XL unfriendly balances out the low mounts imo.

2. GHR - High torso mount capability, ability to run all torso (aka shaving armor off of arms OR going high on the arms for more shielding), coupled with a relatively XL friendly shape + JJ's + good speed, twist and over all mobility.

3. WHM - Love them. Really do. But statistically from what I've seen ingame, in my own experiences as a nerd maths tracker, they simply don't out perform the above two. They are hilariously fun dakka/energy platforms though.

4. MAD - Love these iconic ******** as well, and they are durable, but they shed RT (and thus the bulk of weapons) too easily, even with their tankiness.

From a pure fun perspective, it might be wildly different based on personal tastes, but outside of that in the two arenas that are somewhat the defining "what matters" for many players, I think the above is a fair ranking. But never let it beside I don't consider playing this game for fun important. It is... but the latter also doesn't make LRM Atlas' competitive either. Simply fun to play. There's a significant difference (and for some people, being the most competitive is tied to their fun factor as well). YMMV.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

In terms of meta:
1) Black Knight - XL 350, 3 LPL, 5 ML, 19 DHS)
2) Grasshopper - XL 325, 3 LPL, 4 ML, 17-18 DHS, 1-2 JJs
3) Whammy - Not really sure what the top comp build would be, it may be pure laser vomit, but 4 PPC, 4 AC5, or 2 PPC/2 (U)AC5 are all pretty strong/fun. I think it could be a better poor man's BK than the Hopper, but the science hasn't been done.
4) Marauder - It trades firepower and speed for durability or the other way around, basically it makes terrible trade-offs either way, imo it is the weakest of the bunch and suffers similar to how the Stalker suffers in the current meta (yes, the Stalker suffers, don't let GMan fool you).

Honestly I find the Whammy to be fun because it can do a variety of things, but I do have a soft spot for the Slendermech Grasshopper.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 March 2016 - 09:53 PM.

[Bud Crue]

This thread made me think of the following question in re jump jets and "meta play".
What is the sweet spot for jump jets (how many jets? is jump height irrelevant?)?

Moved this to a different thread.

Edited by Bud Crue, 28 March 2016 - 04:19 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Best two by far are I think the Grass Hopper and Marauder.

You want durability you go Marauder, I've sat a brawler build Bounty hunter, in front of a gen in Faction Wars had half the other team shooting at me and the opening, and came away with weapons still usable, and got a couple of kills.

Grass Hopper people don't like this mech they say its weapon placement is weak, can't tank, Yet has higher mounts than the Black Knight. I got my ace of spades in this mech in a LPL build with an xl my last two kills I was missing an arm had only one ST with armour and my last kill was a Timberwolf, I would take its mobility over a Black Knight any day.

last the WarHammer I won't run dakka on this, I don't even think its that great a mech with Dakka or Gauss, I love talking out the heretic's that build them gauss dakka Battle tech wise its my Second favourite Heavy Mech after the Crusader, I can't stand the thing in this game, though maybe that's my Lore OCD twitching

So Marauder and Grass Hopper tied

Black Knight

War Hammer

Edited by Cathy, 28 March 2016 - 04:11 AM.

[Zordicron]

Hit the Deck, on 27 March 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

What's your "hot" GHR build? The old 2LPL+5ML build definitely doesn't run hot.

I usually run triple LPL if I go that route, and the hopper needs a big engine, so it cut down some of the DHS capacity. I did better with more punch with the extra range- oh I put LPL modules on too. Made it easy to stay out of SRM and other such range and still have a good alpha.
I ran PPC on one variant too.

I could have sized down the engine a bit and removed a JJ or two, but I always found the Grasshopper responded really well to bigger and bigger engines, so I just played it like a clan mech haha.

[Duke Nedo]

1. Warhammer
2. Black knight
3. Grasshopper
4. Marauder

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm going to buck the trend here a bit.

1. Marauder
2. Grasshopper
3. Black Knight
(No Warhammer so can't say).

I like the tankiness of the Marauder and the high mount ballistics. I don't like the knuckle dragging hard points of the BK and Grasshopper. If I laser vomit, I'll take the Jester instead (2 LPLasers and 4 MLasers).

Knuckle-dragging aside, I had prefered the Grasshopper over the BK because the hard points didn't seem as low plus the JJs meant I could scale terrain a bit better. The GH is ugly as sin, but it did ok.

The Black Knight was the absolute most frustrating mech I had ever played in MWO. It's arms feel like they ride on the ground with skis, the CT was...WAS worse than a Catapult for damage, and a lack of JJs at all just made it unwieldy. It is a pretty ride though :/.

Now I know things have changed since the BK first launched when it comes to quirks and hitboxes, but it left such a terrible impression on me that I have been less than eager to return to it.

The Grasshopper was ok, but just ehhh.

The Marauder has ballistic DPS for me, plus I have the Bounty Hunter if I really want to laser vomit in a Marauder. It can be disarmed quick if that RH torso is hit on a 3R, but on the BH, I run a fairly symmetrical build so the tankiness plus symmetry makes for a powerful build till the end (even if it also has low hardpoints as a laser vomit mech).

[TercieI]

BL-KNT, probably the top heavy in the game
GHR, JJ and high mounts let it do a few things the BL-KNT can't
WHM, the laser version is really good, just not quite as good as the BL-KNT & GHR
MAD, fun but not competitive. Tanky with a STD is its big feature but it's a bit undergunned, especially in terms of alpha.

[MischiefSC]

Duke Nedo, on 28 March 2016 - 04:43 AM, said:

1. Warhammer
2. Black knight
3. Grasshopper
4. Marauder

This one struck me as interesting -

What builds? Why place Warhammer first? While a lot of people love the Whammy it's not getting a lot of love in the ranking.

Really curious on some of the responses. I get the tradeoffs on the GHR/BLK - BLK is a door-crasher. He's no surgeon, he's no poker. He's designed to kill someone in two shots relatively close and wide out in the open. The GHR is more of a boxer, stick-and-move. Not quite as much firepower, not quite as directly tanky but more nimble and rolls damage really well; GHR is one of the few mechs that can almost completely cover his STs by twisting. The ST you can poke on a GHR around his arms from the side isn't much bigger than a cockpit shot from the front. If the GHR was 75 tons instead of 70 it'd be the clear advantage but the BLK turns that 5 extra tons plus no need for JJs directly into firepower and cooling.

It's the Marauder/Warhammer measurements that I'm so curious about. What makes the difference between the Whammy and Maddy? Where are the situations where the Warhammer is a better choice than the GHR, if any?

I see almost no Warhammers in CW and few Marauders. I see tons of BKs and GHRs. Not sure if that's a product of familiarity or just flat out superior performance.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 28 March 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

I see almost no Warhammers in CW and few Marauders. I see tons of BKs and GHRs. Not sure if that's a product of familiarity or just flat out superior performance.

Neither the Whammy or Marauder are available for c-bills which play into the usage a bit (including comp).

MischiefSC, on 28 March 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

It's the Marauder/Warhammer measurements that I'm so curious about. What makes the difference between the Whammy and Maddy? Where are the situations where the Warhammer is a better choice than the GHR, if any?

The Grasshopper has only one strength, laser vomit, the Whammy on the other hand is more varied, it can run PPCs effectively imo and can run 4 AC5 solidly unlike the knuckledragger CTF-4X. The difference between the Marauder and Whammy though is that one is XL safe and has a bit more long hanging mounts while the other doesn't.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 28 March 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

I see almost no Warhammers in CW and few Marauders. I see tons of BKs and GHRs. Not sure if that's a product of familiarity or just flat out superior performance.

I would lean towards the obvious answer... accessibility (if it's not available for C-bills, there's a different argument to be made there).

Things will propagate normally once some of your options are made available for C-bills.

The Warhammer is probably the one that would change a bit, despite the Marauder's obvious benefits being so compact.

[Rhavin]

Black knight
Warhammer
Maurader
Grasshopper

The black knight is just tanky, it's so xl friendly allowing for 80 speed and still the ability to vomit 50 plus alphas. It also has the advantage of build it once and move the build from one variant to the next. Has great quirks because all it can do is energy builds. Terrible low hardpoints but it can take the damage it needs to in order to trade with them. I run 3 med pulse and 3 LG pulse on every build and none of them suffer from the choice. If they ever make a ballistic hero of this mech it would be insane in a brawl. Just one spot for an AC 10 is all I ask. 2 for AC 5s would be nice.

Warhammer , not as xl friendly but it can do it. I feel its more agile than the BK by far even on builds that lack agility type quirks. The 6R is my most played mech, even above mechs I have had for years and it's because of the high torso mounts. Not as tough as the BK and that matters alot.

I like the mauraders tankiness and ability to short twist damage into the shield side but it just lacks hardpoints to really make it great. I find more and more that I am dieing to xl death as people are focusing that ballistic torso. Other than the torso mounts for ballistics it's just too squat . I love useing it to deny an area though with the 3 AC build making people back up. The face time it needs is a low point as well.

Grasshopper is cool for many of the same reasons the black knight is, it has the high torso mounts for its lasers as well. It is just not nearly as tanky so it suffers with my playstyle. To me it's a better sniper mech using er large lasers and I prefer mid range poking and flanking.

In response to seeing no warhammers in CW , I run 2 warhammers, a BK or Maurader, and my last slot is a cicada or firestarter. All depends on what leader wants.

Edited by Rhavin, 28 March 2016 - 12:51 PM.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 27 March 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

I hear a lot of conflicting opinions about these mechs and wanted to get a collective opinion.

Warhammer, Marauder, Black Knight, Grasshopper. Please rate them 1-4, best to worst in your opinion and what you feel the best build for each is. This isn't about overall; if there's 1 variant of a mech that's amazing then that's what you're rating. Think of it as the best of each being rated relative to each other.

1) Black Knight - Currently Top IS Heavy for Raw Firepower. It's a limited mech overall in terms of actual builds and the builds it does well are extremely hot, but it's got an excellent blend of speed (with XL), firepower and survivability.

2) Grasshopper - Just under the Black Knight in terms of firepower and survivability. Higher mounts however and JJs means it has a few specific things its better at than the Black Knight - where one is tanky and has raw firepower the other trades a touch of each for mobility and generally being better at long range due to higher mounts. *This is based off of specific variants, as not all variants have enough high mounts.

3) Warhammer - Does everything Cataphracts do firepower wise, except with more of it. It's overall reliance on mixed loadouts and fairly big STs keeps it a notch under BKs & GRHs.

4) Marauder - The hitboxes for this mech force it into STD engines. It's solidly tank with STDs, but its firepower is underwhelming.

[Dawnstealer]

MischiefSC, on 27 March 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

I hear a lot of conflicting opinions about these mechs and wanted to get a collective opinion.

Warhammer, Marauder, Black Knight, Grasshopper. Please rate them 1-4, best to worst in your opinion and what you feel the best build for each is. This isn't about overall; if there's 1 variant of a mech that's amazing then that's what you're rating. Think of it as the best of each being rated relative to each other.

You don't have to rate ones you don't have but if you've got a strong opinion on one then throw that in.

Don't have to get into a big debate over why, just gathering up how people feel about those 4.

For me, personally?

Marauder, Warhammer, Hopper, Knight. And yeah, I know that's not the meta answer, but for some reason, I'm WAAAAAY better with my MAD than my Knight.

[TercieI]

MischiefSC, on 28 March 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

It's the Marauder/Warhammer measurements that I'm so curious about. What makes the difference between the Whammy and Maddy? Where are the situations where the Warhammer is a better choice than the GHR, if any?

Well, you asked to rate on "peak variant/build."

My answer was based on the BL-6 (or 7-L) and the GHR-5H, the best variants of those chassis, all pure meta laser vomit stuff. The WHM-6D built with 3LPL and 3-4 ML is behind those, meta-wise, but on the same sort of plane. No MAD approaches being that effective. They're fun, as a group they're interesting, but they're not competitive really.

Edited by TercieI, 28 March 2016 - 12:48 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Right now, I'd say

1- Black Knight / Grasshopper
2- Marauder
3- Warhammer

They're all very close though, in my mind. Ultimately, it comes down to which mech is currently quirked more. Also, the Marauder and Warhammer suffer because they can't ppc / ballistic hard enough to compete with the top laservomits.

[Big Tin Man]

By my numbers:

Average Damage
1. Grasshopper
2. Marauder
3. Warhammer

KDR
1. Marauder
2. Grasshopper
3. Warhammer

I've been meaning to buy knights, but I still have a garage full of mechs that I haven't even ran and I need another 70-75 tonner like I need a hole in the head.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tristan Winter, on 28 March 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Also, the Marauder and Warhammer suffer because they can't ppc / ballistic hard enough to compete with the top laservomits.

That may be true for the Marauder, but I don't think it is true for the Whammy, the Whammy's main problem is hitboxes.

[Duke Nedo]

MischiefSC, on 28 March 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

This one struck me as interesting -

What builds? Why place Warhammer first? While a lot of people love the Whammy it's not getting a lot of love in the ranking.

Sorry for being short, sent it from my phone.

All in all, I find the top three more or less at equal footing, but I find the Marauder worse (all ranges considered, for close range only the Marauder is fine too).

The reason I put the whammy first was because of hardpoint placement. The whammy keeps the main weaponry high on the torsos, while the contenders mostly have worse hardpoint locations (exception is the GHR-5P which is the only GHR I use). I run my WHM-6D as normal laservomit (3x LPL in chest, +ML), WHM-7S with 4x LPL in chest and WHM-6R with dual gauss in chest+4ML and ammo. I prefer these over GHR and BLK, mainly because of playstyle I guess.

The BLK is the tankiest for sure, and with the biggest alpha, but also suffers from lower hardpoints so it gets hit more. Excellent mech though, could have placed it as #1 on another day.

The GHR-5P is the only one I consider, then it has decent hardpoint locations with 4E high on the chest so I run mine with 4x LPL just as my WHM-7S. The GHR has some JJ and slightly better quirks so all in all very even comparison... the WHM has the option to dual gauss though so I guess I weighted that in...

Anyways, for me the top three are on very even footing.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 28 March 2016 - 01:17 PM.