67 replies to this topic

[Dirty Starfish]

Agent1190, on 03 April 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

That's a participation reward. Everyone gets the same trophy, win or lose.

No, because if you've won your team will have killed more mechs and dealt more damage anyway. As I said, the baseline should be the same to incentivise more people to play while the variable reward should still be applied on top of that.

[MaxFool]

Dirty Starfish, on 03 April 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

No, because if you've won your team will have killed more mechs and dealt more damage anyway. As I said, the baseline should be the same to incentivise more people to play while the variable reward should still be applied on top of that.

That may apply to the whole team on average. The team that have done more kills and damage should get the rewards for it. But here is the real killer: on losing team it's easier to get high damage and kills, unless it's total stomp. On losing team the potential for damage and kills are higher because your team mates are certainly not taking their share. On winning team your team mates do the damage and kills too and your run out of enemies to shoot.

1K damage when your team lost is BAD. On winning team it might not be bad, in perfect matches everyone in the team scores 900 damage but no one over 1500. If you are stuck around 1k damage and couple of kills on losing team, you are not supposed to get good rewards for participation, you simply should have done more. It's not like your team stole all your kills or that every enemy was dead by the time you got there. If you are not getting high damage and kills on losing team it's not just your team that has played badly, it's also you that played badly. You are just fooled by other on your team being so much worse that you think your 1k damage was ok, but it's not.

[Chef Kerensky]

MaxFool, on 03 April 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

That may apply to the whole team on average. The team that have done more kills and damage should get the rewards for it. But here is the real killer: on losing team it's easier to get high damage and kills, unless it's total stomp. On losing team the potential for damage and kills are higher because your team mates are certainly not taking their share. On winning team your team mates do the damage and kills too and your run out of enemies to shoot.

1K damage when your team lost is BAD. On winning team it might not be bad, in perfect matches everyone in the team scores 900 damage but no one over 1500. If you are stuck around 1k damage and couple of kills on losing team, you are not supposed to get good rewards for participation, you simply should have done more. It's not like your team stole all your kills or that every enemy was dead by the time you got there. If you are not getting high damage and kills on losing team it's not just your team that has played badly, it's also you that played badly. You are just fooled by other on your team being so much worse that you think your 1k damage was ok, but it's not.

This, again, revolves around the mindset that every player should be playing for him- or herself - that if your team is bad and losing, you should take advantage of them and simply try to snipe damage while letting them act as meatshields.

Then you wonder why you lose. It's very simple - because you're not working with your team. Granted, a pug drop isn't going to work as cohesively with you as a unit, or better yet, a close-knit group of friends, but that mentality is actually a part of the problem, not a solution to it. It's actually teaching players bad practice.

Your best bet is to play this game with people you actually like and get along with, no matter how few in number they may be.

Edited by Chef Kerensky, 03 April 2016 - 06:30 PM.

[MaxFool]

Chef Kerensky, on 03 April 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

This, again, revolves around the mindset that every player should be playing for him- or herself - that if your team is bad and losing, you should take advantage of them and simply try to snipe damage while letting them act as meatshields.

Then you wonder why you lose. It's very simple - because you're not working with your team. Granted, a pug drop isn't going to work as cohesively with you as a unit, or better yet, a close-knit group of friends, but that mentality is actually a part of the problem, not a solution to it. It's actually teaching players bad practice.

Your best bet is to play this game with people you actually like and get along with, no matter how few in number they may be.

You are 100% wrong. For past couple of months I have never used anything with longer range than IS LPL. I'm not sniping, I'm brawling in the front line and leading pushes. It's just a fact, you don't get 3k damage games if your team mates do their part. If you are a good player and your team loses, 3k damage in not that uncommon or special.

[Carl Vickers]

MaxFool, on 03 April 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

You are 100% wrong. For past couple of months I have never used anything with longer range than IS LPL. I'm not sniping, I'm brawling in the front line and leading pushes. It's just a fact, you don't get 3k damage games if your team mates do their part. If you are a good player and your team loses, 3k damage in not that uncommon or special.

His name is correct, nuff said.

[General Solo]

Chef Kerensky, on 03 April 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

........Your best bet is to play this game with people you actually like and get along with, no matter how few in number they may be.

So True

[Soulos]

Gotta say, I wish they would increase rewards for under performers in CW. If you do less then 1k damage, your reward should go up. If you do less then 700 damage, go up some more. Less then 500 damage, even more! Those guys doing 3k damage don't need more, they already have the best 'mechs, fully mastered, with all the modules. It's us guys in trials that need more.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." - Karl Marx.

edit: spelling

Edited by Soulos, 04 April 2016 - 05:22 AM.

[sycocys]

So you should get rewarded better the worse you do? That just might be one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

[Icantswim]

W A R K H A N, on 03 April 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

Play harder...that is all.

Spoiler

If I played any harder it would have been a win and not applicable to this topic.

Spoiler

[ShiftySWP and the Pleated Pants]

sycocys, on 04 April 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

So you should get rewarded better the worse you do? That just might be one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

That went right past didn't it.... Didn't even sense it buzzing the sarcasm tower?

edit... cause I suck at posting stuff.

Icantswim, on 04 April 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

If I played any harder it would have been a win and not applicable to this topic.

Spoiler

Hmm... now I see that you HAVE been sandbagging of late with your pitiful 2800-3200 damage games in our drops. I shall now expect much more out of you good sir! 7

Edited by ShiftySWP and the Pleated Pants, 04 April 2016 - 08:27 AM.

[Helsbane]

Soulos, on 04 April 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

Gotta say, I wish they would increase rewards for under performers in CW. If you do less then 1k damage, your reward should go up. If you do less then 700 damage, go up some more. Less then 500 damage, even more! Those guys doing 3k damage don't need more, they already have the best 'mechs, fully mastered, with all the modules. It's us guys in trials that need more.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." - Karl Marx.

edit: spelling

LMFAO you are SO fired.

[VorpalAnvil]

Soulos, on 04 April 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

Gotta say, I wish they would increase rewards for under performers in CW. If you do less then 1k damage, your reward should go up. If you do less then 700 damage, go up some more. Less then 500 damage, even more! Those guys doing 3k damage don't need more, they already have the best 'mechs, fully mastered, with all the modules. It's us guys in trials that need more.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." - Karl Marx.

edit: spelling

Bernie voter PLS GO

[Dan Nashe]

You have to look at the big picture.

Rewards for wins PLUS losses.
Do you want PGI to reduce rewards for wins by 300k, and increase rewards for losses by 300k?

By definition rewards are based around 50/50. (Assuming ghost drops are not balanced around). Because one side wins and one side loses.

So question one is: If you win one and lose one, are you happy? If not, that's a separate issue.

The problem is afks farming. If loss rewards are high, why do I care if I lose 4 mechs in the first two waves if that means I can ask and read a book? Remember on defense you'll lose a lot of those mechs against weak enemies. So it is just as easy to score points.

If it is too rewarding you will see even more people run out and suicide in the first wave or two.

See: BGs in WOW for example.
How can you tell a dumb player from a farmer? No one has ever been punished for hanging back, using teammates as meatshields, racking up damage and kills after the match is decided, and then blaming their team for the loss.

Of course, it's not hard to lose 6 games in a row even with a 60 percent win ratio. So players need something to show for it. That player is probably contributing just as much every game, win or lose. Ultimately for a player play sessions matter. If you can only play an hour or two here and there, even a person with a 90 percent win ratio who uses consu.ables could find they were better off not logging on that night.

Of course part of the issue may be: do you use consumables?

If you use 320,000 in consumables, and I use an average of 40k, you are helping the team but I am making a lot more money.

So I am definitely not saying it's perfect. Losing money is very possible. Given that this game is all about collecting mechs - no game is successful if you can play for 2 hours and regress through the actions of 12 other random peolple.

So TL:DR it's not that simple of a problem.

The "trophy for participation" responses are juvenile.

[MischiefSC]

Got nothing to do with egos or 'you lost so you shouldn't get ****'.

It's simple math.

50% of the players in every game lose. The time investment is the same however. You have to weigh that relative to QP if you want people to play CW instead of QP.

If I have a 4 match losing streak how much would I make? If I lose 1 CW match what do I make?

CW needs to be *slightly* better given the longer waiting and queue times.

If you want to go win at CW you need to have someone show up to lose to you. The time spent in CW needs to pay for itself relative to time spent in QP. That's simple and reasonable.

Given the steeper curve, lack of a MM and other complications it should pay more.

[Mystere]

Agent1190, on 01 April 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

It should go without saying, but...

Why should you be handsomely rewarded if you lost?

In a related note, why should a close fight be handsomely rewarded as well? It's nothing but a "Pyrrhic victory".

[General Solo]

Mystere, on 04 April 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

In a related note, why should a close fight be handsomely rewarded as well? It's nothing but a "Pyrrhic victory".

True
But "Pyrrhic victory" is so much fun when death is virtual.

[Mystere]

OZHomerOZ, on 04 April 2016 - 06:28 PM, said:

True
But "Pyrrhic victory" is so much fun when death is virtual.

Massacres are even more fun.

Edited by Mystere, 05 April 2016 - 07:53 AM.

[Icantswim]

Since it was mentioned during last town hall that unit and pilot leaderboards are gonna be implemented, here's an idea.
1. Winning or losing against top ranked unit should be more rewarding than winning/losing against an average one.
2. Same goes for damage, killing blows and other rewards. Let's all agree when you are getting steamrolled by strong premade your damage goes down. Less damage = less C-bills. So that should be adjusted as well.
3. If you killed top ranked pilot you should get appropriate reward.
Also, it should not be limited to C-bills rewards, you should get appropriate ammount of LP as well.
And it can all be achieved by introducing multipliers that are based on pilot and unit ranking.

[PFC Carsten]

Dan Nashe, on 04 April 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

You have to look at the big picture.

… and comprehend what you see there. It's about attractiveness of FaP for new players, fresh blood if you will. Which is what this game mode direly needs when it's ever supposed to succeed.

The solution has nothing to do with participant's awards and such, but with the ratio between QP and FaP which needs to be skewed in favour of the latter, for winning as well as for losing. Not for pampering beginners but for populating the queue and hopefully get a few more people motivated to join a team, "L2P" or "get gud".


In the same manner, farming obviously inferior opfors should be discouraged, since it massively discourages new players as well. Maybe tie the winners rewards to the time needed to achieve it, so they have a motivation and reward to end unbalanced matches quickly, so everyone can hope for better luck next time ASAP.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 06 April 2016 - 02:42 AM.

[Icantswim]

PFC Carsten, on 06 April 2016 - 02:39 AM, said:

Maybe tie the winners rewards to the time needed to achieve it, so they have a motivation and reward to end unbalanced matches quickly, so everyone can hope for better luck next time ASAP.

^That.
Because otherwise considering waiting times and stuff it's not beneficial to end match sooner. You don't get any rewards for shooting objectives. There's no "omega most damage dealt" (not even a "UAV most dmg dealt"). That damage doesn't count towards anything. Seeing some mere 500 LP on the stats screen at the end of the match is tear inducing. And the only way to improve the situation is to get more dmg and more kills.
There's an easy formula: the more LP you get per match the less matches you have to play to get those sweet mechbays and mc.