75 replies to this topic

[Juodas Varnas]

They should at least double the boost they're giving.
It'd still be not enough, but at least it'd be noticeable.

They should also add the Scorpion to celebrate the PPC buffs.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 02 April 2016 - 01:44 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

I just don't get people at times.

For years we have complained about P.G.I making hard big changes to weapons and other systems, that never gave the old way a chance to show whether it worked correctly.

They actually physically show people they listen by making a small change, and going by the title its more your doing it wrong even thought they are doing it right.

Even if they doubled the adjustment, its still not going to be used in bargain basement play, the laser is still going to be king, because you can still adjust and don't have to learn to aim and lead properly.

To big a buff and your going to get the bargain basement pugs complaining about ppc stalkers one shotting them, by people that can aim, its not fair, and they need a nerf.

Just like LRM's one of the least effective weapons in the game, when used against good player, are called OP by the masses are now.

One idiot actually said in chat lastnight LRM's need to be removed from the game, I personally would prefer to see him removed from the game than LRM's .

PGI also couldn't bring the baseline up to much because of the mech quirks, so what they will do over the next couple of months look at the adjustment see if mech quirks for it need to be reduced, so they can up it again or leave be and maybe give them another baseline boost.

I think on balance that they probably could have made the adjustments a little more, but its sensible, and on the PPC issue I'm happier with PGI than the people saying its worthless

[Roughneck Cobra]

Ive used ERPPC's over time for Clan and IS.

My opinions simple, only boats benefit from this will be the ones designed take them via Quirks.

Doubt a couple will go on my Timber for example or my Black widow or Bounty hunter, still just too hot.

[LowSubmarino]

Clan erppcs get 100 + speed too?

Fantastic.

My ppc hunchback gets even better.

[Widowmaker1981]

PPCs arent as bad as people make out, so while those velocity changes are a bit meh i dont think they should go crazy on the heat, so this is fine to start. Does depend on whether/how much they adjust quirks though.. adding 100 m/s then nuking all the 50% velocity quirks would be a rather large net nerf.

Main thing is IS-ERPPCs should get more some love imo, like 12.5 heat instead of 14

[oldradagast]

Better than nothing, but still a laughably small change, almost so they can say "we fixed it because any changes = fixing it."

PPC needs the stupid minimum range removed, first of all. Shift it back to scaling damage, or have the damage split between components, or something - right now, it looks stupid, makes no sense, and gimps the weapon hard.

ERPPC's (Clan and IS) are simply too hot to be useful, so that also needs to be addressed.

[Malleus011]

About half what was obviously needed, but OK.

Still wish they'd fix the min range issue. PPCs are not useless under 90m, guys, just inaccurate.

[Juodas Varnas]

Malleus011, on 02 April 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

About half what was obviously needed, but OK.

Still wish they'd fix the min range issue. PPCs are not useless under 90m, guys, just inaccurate.

I think that depends on which rules/lore fluff you use.
Because according to some fluff, PPCs have inhibitors that make them nothing but "fancy lightshows" if used under 90m to prevent feedback damage to the weapon system. Of course, the inhibitors could be turned off manually to be used under 90m just you were risking your PPC to explode.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

i never considered the speed on PPCs to be a major problem

the heat/damage ratio and detection issues however, kill them
especially since at the same tonnage, most will just pick a LPL

edit: note that they are actually supposed to be near beam-like in speed and much more devastating

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 02 April 2016 - 07:02 AM.

[Malleus011]

Juodas Varnas, on 02 April 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

I think that depends on which rules/lore fluff you use.
Because according to some fluff, PPCs have inhibitors that make them nothing but "fancy lightshows" if used under 90m to prevent feedback damage to the weapon system. Of course, the inhibitors could be turned off manually to be used under 90m just you were risking your PPC to explode.

I'll gladly deal with an inhibitor as opposed to my PPC mysteriously becoming a flashlight under 90m. I'd rather have an accuracy issue under 90m, but I'll take anything rather than the setup we have now.

None of the AC's have their min range. The Gauss got the crazy (awful) guassbow mechanic. The LRMs and PPCs got hosed because they're useless under min range. (And I never say 'poor Clans' but poor clans, their LRMs don't even have min range and got slapped with one).

It makes 'mechs like the Griffin 1N go from a solid, trooper medium with good long-range power and decent melee skills, and turns it into a stupid 'mech to take because a Locust can face-hug you and you're utterly helpless. Give us scaled damage, or inhibitors, or funky LRM spread, or melee, or something, but the current system has been a bad fit for a years now.

[Chrome Magnus]

Pjwned, on 01 April 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:

It's not entirely clear how that answers my question, because it seems like what you're saying indicates ER PPCs being too slow, but you don't seem to agree with that.

I wasn't very clear on that. By "more greatly spaced" I meant one wouldn't be firing enough for heat to be a big issue at range. To be clear atm I do think ERPPC's are currently too slow and they could have used a bit more than 100ms.

Pjwned, on 01 April 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:

Okay, so if I'm understanding correctly then 1300 m/s velocity good enough for ER PPCs with 810m optimal range, so then why do PPCs need to be 1200 m/s with only 540m optimal range? Seems to me that would indicate 1 of them being too fast or the other being too slow, or possibly both cases are true which is what I think by increasing PPC velocity (when it doesn't need it) and not increasing ER PPC velocity enough.

I was saying about 1350-1400 would be a good speed. Well, a good point to bump to and re-evaluate as I dislike large swings. And yes they have farther to go when firing at max/max optimal range but most shots are taken a good deal closer and that should be considered when setting speeds.

Pjwned, on 01 April 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:

PPCs used to have scaling damage within minimum range very similar to how C-LRMs work now, and that's how it should work. I wouldn't say it's a different story either, we're talking about changes to PPCs and PGI keeps skirting around the proper fixes for whatever dumb nonsense reasons they have for not doing it correctly.

Well hot damn. PGI, bring that back!

[Pjwned]

Chrome Magnus, on 02 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

I wasn't very clear on that. By "more greatly spaced" I meant one wouldn't be firing enough for heat to be a big issue at range. To be clear atm I do think ERPPC's are currently too slow and they could have used a bit more than 100ms.

Okay, I see your point and agree there.

Quote

I was saying about 1350-1400 would be a good speed. Well, a good point to bump to and re-evaluate as I dislike large swings.

The reason I suggest somewhere around 1750 m/s velocity for ER PPCs is at that speed it would take a bit under half a second to reach a target at its optimal range, which is a good standard to have I think. It could be bumped down to 1650 m/s velocity and still take under half a second to hit a target at optimal range, but the thing is that if the C-ER PPC was slightly slower than the ER PPC (but still faster than it is currently) in order to make it more balanced (similar to IS ACs vs clan ACs), then it might be too slow if the ER PPC was at 1650 m/s velocity and the C-ER PPC had something like 150 m/s less velocity.

The reason I say 1200 m/s velocity is too much for PPCs is that it already takes a bit under half a second to reach a target at optimal range at 1100 m/s velocity, and while it shouldn't be too slow it also needs to not be too fast.

I guess I'm just tired of people whining about the PPC being too slow because they want to treat it like an ER PPC so that the ER PPC stays irrelevant, so maybe it's not "whining from bads" to want the PPC to go faster but it's still annoying seeing that people don't consider solutions that make the ER PPC more desirable.

Quote

And yes they have farther to go when firing at max/max optimal range but most shots are taken a good deal closer and that should be considered when setting speeds.

It's not always for lack of opportunity to take such a long range shot though, often enough you could have a chance to fire at something ~800m away but the relatively low velocity on ER PPCs makes it not very worthwhile to even try to shoot that far, which should be fixed by making the shots travel significantly faster than they do now.

Quote

Well hot damn. PGI, bring that back!

Right, they should bring that back because it actually makes sense, but PGI doesn't listen and/or doesn't care.

[Nyte Kitsune]

Well.. It is a good start, the velocity is its biggest shortcoming next to generating so much heat (and ghost heat), which certainly needs to be fixed. But velocity is the biggest problem as its far too easy to "Dodge" incoming PPC fire, at least at long ranges. Usually if I see something shoot a PPC at me I can just move out of the way, which shouldn't be possible, I mean really now, how are we able to dodge weapons moving at "THE SPEED OF LIGHT". PGI really didn't think that one thru.

[Mystere]

Juodas Varnas, on 02 April 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

I think that depends on which rules/lore fluff you use.
Because according to some fluff, PPCs have inhibitors that make them nothing but "fancy lightshows" if used under 90m to prevent feedback damage to the weapon system. Of course, the inhibitors could be turned off manually to be used under 90m just you were risking your PPC to explode.

With this whiny player base, such a feature is guaranteed to produce several 50-page and larger "This is stupid!" threads that then demand that the explosion be cut out and just keep the under-90 damage. Whiny and sneaky at the same time.

Edited by Mystere, 02 April 2016 - 08:10 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 02 April 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

With this whiny player base, such a feature is guaranteed to produce several 50-page and larger "This is stupid!" threads that then demand that the explosion be cut out and just keep the under-90 damage. Whiny and sneaky at the same time.

I trust that you recognize the irony of this post, yes?

[oldradagast]

As for the PPC, it needs damage-dealing ability under 90m. Otherwise, it will forever be inferior to the Large Pulse Laser (unless they nerf that weapon into the ground for "balance") and arguably even the basic Large Laser. A 7 ton, direct fire weapon that magically breaks under 90m is just stupid and generally a bad idea to take into a fight, especially since mechs that can use PPC's well tend to not be the fast ones that can control the engagement distance and keep foes out of the 90m dead zone.

Not everything must stick to the absolutes of Lore, especially given that even the people who wrote the Lore admit that it was hardly a wonderful example of across the board game balance. MWO isn't table top anyway, so balance must work within this game - a first-person, real-time shooter where everyone gets 1 mech - not within table top.

Edited by oldradagast, 03 April 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 April 2016 - 01:36 AM, said:

I trust that you recognize the irony of this post, yes?

Where, there is a bit of a difference between whining and "being creative" after a half liter of wine.

Edited by Mystere, 03 April 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[Mystere]

oldradagast, on 03 April 2016 - 05:47 AM, said:

Unlikely. As for the PPC, it needs damage-dealing ability under 90m. Otherwise, it will forever be inferior to the Large Pulse Laser (unless they nerf that weapon into the ground for "balance") and arguably even the basic Large Laser. A 7 ton, direct fire weapon that magically breaks under 90m is just stupid and generally a bad idea to take into a fight, especially since mechs that can use PPC's well tend to not be the fast ones that can control the engagement distance and keep foes out of the 90m dead zone.

Not everything must stick to the absolutes of Lore, especially given that even the people who wrote the Lore admit that it was hardly a wonderful example of across the board game balance. MWO isn't table top anyway, so balance must work within this game - a first-person, real-time shooter where everyone gets 1 mech - not within table top.

And here is the difference between the "generic robot shooter" types who wants PPC to be just like any other generic weapon in every other generic shooter, as opposed to those who want the flavor of lore in which PPCs:

• have a field inhibitor that prevent feedback that could damage the Mech's electronic systems if turned off
  
• induce electrical side-effects on the target

Just imagine the possibilities for the latter:

• HUD disruption
  
• target data loss
  
• increased heat

But no, PPCs should just be like any other generic weapon. So let's just touch heat and velocity and nothing more.

Edited by Mystere, 03 April 2016 - 09:03 AM.

[oldradagast]

Mystere, on 03 April 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

And here is the difference between the "generic robot shooter" types who wants PPC to be just like any other generic weapon in every other generic shooter, as opposed to those who want the flavor of lore in which PPCs:

• have a field inhibitor that prevent feedback that could damage the Mech's electronic systems if turned off
  
• induce electrical side-effects on the target

Just imagine the possibilities for the latter:

• HUD disruption
  
• target data loss
  
• increased heat

But no, PPCs should just be like any other generic weapon.

I never said they "should be like any other generic weapon" - groundless assumptions don't help your position. Ideas have been proposed from reduced damage that changes with range (the old PPC mechanic), damage scatter (5 damage to mech section hit, 5 damage to an adjacent section) or even, as you said, some sort of field inhibitor mechanic with potential feedback to the firing mech.

I honestly don't care which solution is picked, but the current situation, where the energy bolt that emerges from my mech's weapon magically deals 0 damage until it reaches 90m away is just stupid. It is not Lore, it is not good game design, and it makes no sense even from the semi sci-fi mechanics in the game.

Edited by oldradagast, 03 April 2016 - 09:05 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

oldradagast, on 03 April 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

I never said they "should be like any other generic weapon" - groundless assumptions don't help your position. Ideas have been proposed from reduced damage that changes with range (the old PPC mechanic), damage scatter (5 damage to mech section hit, 5 damage to an adjacent section) or even, as you said, some sort of field inhibitor mechanic with potential feedback to the firing mech.

I honestly don't care which solution is picked, but the current situation, where the energy bolt that emerges from my mech's weapon magically deals 0 damage until it reaches 90m away is just stupid. It is not Lore, it is not good game design, and it makes no sense even from the semi sci-fi mechanics in the game.

I'd argue that lore matters but there are other weapons in the game with lore that had a min range, that in MWO don't, so your argument that PPC's shouldn't have a min range is perfectly vallid

It does come in handy at times by pure accident, when someone pushes by you and blocks your shot, you can still fire knowing that half your ppc shots will land while you won't open the pushy fools back amour, rather than completely block your fire

Edited by Cathy, 03 April 2016 - 09:34 AM.