80 replies to this topic

[Davers]

The greatest mystery of MWO- how do the 14% of unit players show up in every match? The majority of FW matches should be pug vs pug, but we never hear about them.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

I don't have a unit tag, even though I regularly play grouped up, with a number of units.

The biggest misconceptions about this split is that:
1. a unit tag divides a decent player from a total newbie
2. a need to drop a tag will prevent organised people from grouping up together and farming clueless pugs.

The split will most likely end up with maybe a bit better overall balance in the unit CW, but with much longer wait times and maybe a bit less overall number of total stomps in the unitless CW, but with pug stompers running almost unchecked.

The line should go between curious newbies and experienced players. Between pure casual solos and people who can play organised. This is the actual gap, right there. I can name a few unit tags that say "we're just a bit less casual than it can be possible", while you can drop my unitless behind with any unit out there and I will pull my own weight.
Simply put, there shouldn't be a unit-ed // unitless division. There just should be a separete and volutary option to drop solo and get matched against solos only, with certain limitations in benefits and mechanics that prevent synchdropping.

I've already described one way it could look like here:

Spoiler

http://mwomercs.com/...01#entry4979601

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 03 April 2016 - 03:13 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So someone who is new or want's to play with units needs to make a single player unit and there needs to be a tag for 'looking for a unit' for them to use so they can play in a 1 player unit in the unit queue.

In a way that's better than units playing with pugs; it's a chance for units to see new players and new players to see units in their element, play together and do matches together and then do invites and training. It also means that only people interested in joining units are going to be involved in unit play - right now there's a lot of players in units who, really, end of the day just want to pug but sorta got pulled into units.

[Dudeman3k]

VorpalAnvil, on 02 April 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

Unitless players were not originally going to be allowed into CW at all until they beg whined and screamed bloody murder about being excluded. And of course once they were let in, they did the same about facing units. Once again, PGI is bending over backwards to serve the lowest common denominator. At least get your facts straight before you go off on your anti-unit Jihad.

Well, You can keep your unit exclusive game mode and pay for the PGI servers to stay up yourselves then.

if CW is infact the soul of the MWO experience, then it would be bad for revenue if they didn't include their majority playerbase (the casuals)

[Aresye]

Davers, on 03 April 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

The greatest mystery of MWO- how do the 14% of unit players show up in every match? The majority of FW matches should be pug vs pug, but we never hear about them.

Simple. Most solo players defend, and most teams attack.

Solo players are like moths, drawn to the planet with the most players on it. Well, it just so happens the reason a particular planet has the most players on it, is because there's multiple 12man teams from a particular unit attacking it.

[Dudeman3k]

VorpalAnvil, on 03 April 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

Once again, you people need to get your facts straight before you get your typing fingers all in a bind. PGI has already stated that in fact, the solo CW Q WILL AFFECT the map. So while my unit is using teamwork to win matches, all of you rambozoes will be undoing our hard work while patting yourselves on the back for averaging 200 Dmg per mech. GG pugs...

how is this a bad thing?? So you work hard... at a video game.... doing unit things and blah blah blah.... CW still doesnt have a purpose besides blow up mechs, so....... cry me a river??

Maybe now I can actually play a drop ship mode and get away from CS style deathmatch, and getting around to enjoying the game again with something new

VorpalAnvil, on 02 April 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

It's funny that you would talk about preconceptions and untruths and then rattle off several about units. The majority of units are very casual, they are not the hierarchical strictly structured Full Metal Jacket reproductions many seem to think they are. They are more often than not, just a group of like minded players who enjoy each others company. They rarely have time commitments or other such nonsense. Joining a unit is the primary way I learned how to properly play the game. Units are a place to discuss builds, tactics, hidden game mechanics etc... And don't take criticism of CW pugs so personally. Did anybody name you specifically? Yes of course their are some solos who happily play with the units they are matched up with. In fact in CW1 when I was a CSJ loyalist the joke was that we didn't have pugs, we just had unit members that didn't have tags yet because the quality of our pugs was so high at the time. That time period however was the exception, not the norm. These days it is very common for solo pugs to bring crap builds, lurms, drop in lights on wave 1 when you need big mechs the most ( because scouting is SO important in CW dontcha know? ) scoff at you for even suggesting that they play with the team, if they don't outright try to sabotage your efforts. Stereotypes exist for a reason; they are generally true.

if you needed a unit to learn how to properly play this game.... you need to find a different game dude. seriously, uninstall

[Mystere]

clownwarlord, on 01 April 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

It will force units to play against unit members. So units will be more advantageous for them to from a group and drop in CW than to go solo as a unit member. This will force units that have been farming pugs to finally face real competition instead of their usual pug farming. So what will happen? Units will complain because they can't farm anymore and that they have to have actual talent, but that is to not to be said for all units because some of them are legit. I leave it for you to decide who is legit and who isn't.

Now there might be an issue though, and that is player count. The hope is more solo players will play if they do not have to play against units. But with that units might not have enough to get matches to fill the gaps. Outside of that issue I see no problem with this.

I only play solo and yet I myself think a separate solo CW queue is utterly ridiculous.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Jack Booted Thug, on 02 April 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

I think that's the biggest thing on everybody's mind. It's extremely rare I see a full 12 of tagged unit players on either side in a match.

It's going to take a lot more coordination among smaller units who can't field a full 12.

Sitting in the que and spamming faction chat to find solos to fill out those empty slots is going to get a whole lot tougher.

You mean near impossible?

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 02 April 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

If you have a unit tag, you'll be in the unit queue against other tagged people. If you don't, you'll be in the tagless queue.

You can make a unit with just you in it so you can play in the unit queue.

Unit queue is the only one that will flip worlds or impact the CW map directly.

Think of it like this - if you want teamwork, coordination and communication you've either already joined a unit or you can make a single player unit and play with like-minded people. Odds will be much better that your team will comprise either a premade unit or at least people who have actively decided they want to play on a team with a team.

If you don't want teamwork, you don't want to communicate or coordinate you just want to play like a pug on CW map/modes then you drop tags and go play in the tagless queue. Your team is 100% guaranteed to be made up of people who have actually actively decided they don't want to play on a team in a team v team game. There will be no matchmaker, no PSR, nothing. It'll be a **** show and you are unlikely to see attackers push past the gates. Expect people drop drop 4xLRM boats and all sniper builds, expect it to be the literal worst conceivable play in CW all pushed together in to one horrifying hole.

Which if you make a single player unit you won't ever have to see anymore. It's essentially splitting wheat from chaff and if you want to play CW as 'hardcore mode' where the coordinated team wins and people are there because they know that then tag up and get to it.

I'm really looking forward to it.

Considering PGI has yet to restore my old -- and personal -- unit name, I'm inclined to farm the solo queue in the meantime.

[Mystere]

Cathy, on 02 April 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

I don't disagree, before I joined a unit I always followed a plan if there was one, as I knew it was in my best interest, however a lot of vocal people in the units told soloists to get out of CW there's no place for you here, and now they don't have to go near them, and now even that is apparently wrong.

As someone who only drops solo, I cannot recall ever being told that by any unit player -- even that one jackass in a possibly also jackass unit that I happened to drop with once, and I won the game for them -- no thanks to the jackass.

Cathy, on 02 April 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

I think you'll find that the units fired the first shots, and are now going to suffer more for the lack of acceptance.

As I said above, I never saw that in-game. YMMV of course.

Edited by Mystere, 03 April 2016 - 08:50 PM.

[Mystere]

VorpalAnvil, on 02 April 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

Unitless players were not originally going to be allowed into CW at all until they beg whined and screamed bloody murder about being excluded. And of course once they were let in, they did the same about facing units. Once again, PGI is bending over backwards to serve the lowest common denominator. At least get your facts straight before you go off on your anti-unit Jihad.

Ahem! That's a very wide brush you're wielding there against solo players. Not every solo player was like that.

[Eider]

Mystere, on 03 April 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

As someone who only drops solo, I cannot recall ever being told that by any unit player -- even that one jackass in a possibly also jackass unit that I happened to drop with once, and I won the game for them -- no thanks to the jackass.




As I said above, I never saw that in-game. YMMV of course.

Really? come on now since day 1 of cw release the unit players always said "no filthy casuals'. Then people like commented that without more casual players such a mode would become unpopulated. End result? all the units constantly crying about the que times and comming up with ridiculous ideas to improve the popularity of the feature.. without including the filthy casuals crowd. Is anyone honestly surprised by the results? I think this suggestion by pgi is perfect. You can keep your ball and play with it. And the people told to stick with solo que can now join in the same mode without having to join a unit. Everyone wins.. yes your cw mode will still be a vaste wasteland. But it already was.

[Johnny Z]

MischiefSC, on 03 April 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

I'm all for the split queue. All for it. Have a tagless queue, let people play the modes and maps. I've always been for just putting the maps/modes in QP.

Just needs to not affect the map. You don't get to play casual and derpy and screw the map up for the people putting effort in.

Higher effort is going to equal higher rewards as well. Hence unit queue getting MC rewards for taking worlds, etc.

However having a pug queue version of CW for people to just play and derp in? Sure. Go nuts. All for it.

Well I'm actually for a single queue on the faction map. But the way it is being done looks really good to.

That Unit players have to play on the same galactic map as the none unit players is just part of an MMO isn't it?

The complaints that none unit players be they legit none unit players or unit players dropping tags will mess up the the galactic map by losing planets on purpose is a strong argument split queue or not....... Its a legit problem, splitting queues doesn't make it better or worse.

The answers to this problem is an entirely different subject.

Its almost like your asking for a guild only MMO. Does this make any sense at all? There has never been such a thing as a guild only MMO. I don't think there ever will be.

Calling guilds units like this game does doesn't change anything.

Edited by Johnny Z, 03 April 2016 - 09:37 PM.

[Mystere]

Eider, on 03 April 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

Really? come on now since day 1 of cw release the unit players always said "no filthy casuals'. Then people like commented that without more casual players such a mode would become unpopulated. End result? all the units constantly crying about the que times and comming up with ridiculous ideas to improve the popularity of the feature.. without including the filthy casuals crowd. Is anyone honestly surprised by the results? I think this suggestion by pgi is perfect. You can keep your ball and play with it. And the people told to stick with solo que can now join in the same mode without having to join a unit. Everyone wins.. yes your cw mode will still be a vaste wasteland. But it already was.

As I said, I myself do not recall getting called a "filthy casual" in game. I really doubt that is because I played so much better than them.

[Aresye]

Eider, on 03 April 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

Really? come on now since day 1 of cw release the unit players always said "no filthy casuals'. Then people like commented that without more casual players such a mode would become unpopulated. End result? all the units constantly crying about the que times and comming up with ridiculous ideas to improve the popularity of the feature.. without including the filthy casuals crowd. Is anyone honestly surprised by the results? I think this suggestion by pgi is perfect. You can keep your ball and play with it. And the people told to stick with solo que can now join in the same mode without having to join a unit. Everyone wins.. yes your cw mode will still be a vaste wasteland. But it already was.

There is little to no benefit for units doing FW. That's why it's a ghost town.

Obviously there's a few loyalist units, and a couple dedicated units like MS and KCom, but the majority of the well known units in this game barely touch FW (if at all). You might see 2 teams worth from the same unit, which may seem like a lot, until you factor in the fact they have over 500 players.

Think the MC rewards are going to change this? I severely doubt that. The MC payout is likely going to be so pitifully small that even small units are going to be fighting over scraps.

Units want to feel like they're doing something. That's called having an "end-game." You can throw prizes, CBills, MC, etc. all you want at a unit, but they aren't going to play FW as long as it's nothing more than a boring, stale, repetitive grind.

Units want the recognition and glory. They want things like leaderboards showing how awesome they are. They want smaller sub-maps of the faction map showing an outline of their territory. They want to upgrade their planet's defenses and establish their own empire. They want jumpships and dropships they can own (and name). They want to be able to attack specific unit's territories and property, and so much more...

[Johnny Z]

Aresye, on 03 April 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

There is little to no benefit for units doing FW. That's why it's a ghost town.

Obviously there's a few loyalist units, and a couple dedicated units like MS and KCom, but the majority of the well known units in this game barely touch FW (if at all). You might see 2 teams worth from the same unit, which may seem like a lot, until you factor in the fact they have over 500 players.

Think the MC rewards are going to change this? I severely doubt that. The MC payout is likely going to be so pitifully small that even small units are going to be fighting over scraps.

Units want to feel like they're doing something. That's called having an "end-game." You can throw prizes, CBills, MC, etc. all you want at a unit, but they aren't going to play FW as long as it's nothing more than a boring, stale, repetitive grind.

Units want the recognition and glory. They want things like leaderboards showing how awesome they are. They want smaller sub-maps of the faction map showing an outline of their territory. They want to upgrade their planet's defenses and establish their own empire. They want jumpships and dropships they can own (and name). They want to be able to attack specific unit's territories and property, and so much more...

Your right this faction play phase 3 wont solve everything from what is known about it. The MC rewards are awesome but unless there is new content to use that MC on it will have limited effect. Same goes for C-bill rewards and penalties.

It wont solve everything, but its a start. Its a good start actually and other games cant compare to even this in many ways. But this game has a long way to go in adding goals and atmosphere and other cool stuff.

Edited by Johnny Z, 03 April 2016 - 10:53 PM.

[Davegt27]

Jon Gotham, on 03 April 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

I know what you are thinking Dave, but in my personal experience it has been true here, more or less. when I drop solo I see the nasty, horrid end of the playerbase (won't listen , I do what I want brigade-usually in utter silence) around 8 out of every 10 games......
Usually I drop CW in a casual premade made up of random solos and unit guys-MUCH more fun. At least then there is no attitude problems or Johnny Mcrambos to contend with:)

What I am thinking is a WWII dictator and how he used this mentality to kill millions of people
Blond women are dumb a stereotype that is impossible to be true
They would have to have a different genetic code
I could go on and on

Definition of stereotype
An untrue premise fabricated by people to justify thoughts and actions often times leading to bigotry and hatred

Edited by Davegt27, 04 April 2016 - 10:05 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Johnny Z, on 03 April 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

Well I'm actually for a single queue on the faction map. But the way it is being done looks really good to.

That Unit players have to play on the same galactic map as the none unit players is just part of an MMO isn't it?

The complaints that none unit players be they legit none unit players or unit players dropping tags will mess up the the galactic map by losing planets on purpose is a strong argument split queue or not....... Its a legit problem, splitting queues doesn't make it better or worse.

The answers to this problem is an entirely different subject.

Its almost like your asking for a guild only MMO. Does this make any sense at all? There has never been such a thing as a guild only MMO. I don't think there ever will be.

Calling guilds units like this game does doesn't change anything.

Except they are playing for the exact same prize.

So if your local group of dads goes to play a casual game of touch football at the park but gets to win the Super Bowl if they beat the other casual group of dads - instead of the two actual NFL teams who are trying to play the Super Bowl. They're not allowed to play each other; the casual dads touch team will never have to play against or beat the pro NFL team but still gets to win the Super Bowl, get the ring, money, accolades, rewards?

That's absurd.

If you attempt to make that the case you can be absolutely certain units will either make alts or drop tags and sync-drop to farm out easy wins to protect their holdings. You try to create an environment where casuals running their 4xLRM decks, refusing to communicate or think that holding behind Omega on Boreal is 'playing smart' get to take the prize away from competitive teams who know what they're doing without having to play each other and you'll just compel the competitive teams to go hunt down the casuals. It's a terrible idea.

You want to take a world you take it from the best the faction has to put forward to hold it. You don't get to still win the war while hiding from anyone seriously competitive to play against.

Besides - again, tags give the MC rewards. You don't have a unit tag you can't tag a planet, ergo you can't take the world. The only thing such a system would do is require most of us to run two accounts and flip between them and sync drop to take a world. It would make finding matches in unit queue more difficult as regular unit players would be required to spend half their time in pug queue sync-dropping (almost impossible not to do; if there's only 12 or 15 people in your faction dropping on a world you're going to be in the same drop regardless) just to effectively take worlds and then you're throwing pugs into a situation where they are *guaranteed* to regularly be in scrub casual pug teams against coordinated teams without even the hope of being filler for a team that would carry them.

I can't imagine PGI would make a mistake like that. Besides, when I tweeted with Russ on it he said that taking worlds (and tagging them) would happen in unit queue. Biggest impact solo queue will have is giving the units in their faction artillery strikes and such to use when they win. They'll have an impact, they'll be helping their faction, they're just not going to be flipping worlds. How can they? No tags, can't tag it.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

I can't imagine PGI would make a mistake like that. Besides, when I tweeted with Russ on it he said that taking worlds (and tagging them) would happen in unit queue. Biggest impact solo queue will have is giving the units in their faction artillery strikes and such to use when they win. They'll have an impact, they'll be helping their faction, they're just not going to be flipping worlds. How can they? No tags, can't tag it.

Is that a challenge?

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

I can't imagine PGI would make a mistake like that. Besides, when I tweeted with Russ on it he said that taking worlds (and tagging them) would happen in unit queue. Biggest impact solo queue will have is giving the units in their faction artillery strikes and such to use when they win. They'll have an impact, they'll be helping their faction, they're just not going to be flipping worlds. How can they? No tags, can't tag it.

I imagine it would work like it does now. Non tagged players can capture a planet. But what ever unit put the most players into the fight for said planet gets the tags on it, or if no unit players played on that battle the planet still flips but no tags are put on it.