93 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Lupis Volk, on 02 April 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

I think every time Imperius throws a tantrum Russ delays Mad Cat 2 development.

I actually think you may be onto something..... (pretty sure Russ and Paul can both be a tad spiteful from time to time.....)

Gyrok, on 02 April 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

Science:

7x SPL = 42 damage

8x ERSL = 40 damage

With fall off nerfs, there is not sufficient range gap to warrant the ERSL anymore. When it was a gap of ~90m, ok...440 versus ~350.

Now that we are talking about a range gap of a mere ~50m...better to have more damage and less duration than to have the range.

science
8x ERSL = 4 tons
7 x SPL = 7 tons.

40 dmg for 4 tons vs 42 dmg for 7 tons, marginally better range, and better cooling (thanks to plus 3-4 DHS..well, 1.4 Heatsinks).

Science FTW, indeed.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 April 2016 - 04:07 PM.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 April 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

I actually think you may be onto something..... (pretty sure Russ and Paul can both be a tad spiteful from time to time.....)


science
8x ERSL = 4 tons
7 x SPL = 7 tons.

40 dmg for 4 tons vs 42 dmg for 7 tons, marginally better range, and better cooling (thanks to plus 3-4 DHS..well, 1.4 Heatsinks).

Science FTW, indeed.

You do realize, the ACH already does the ERSL build just as well...especially since you cannot alpha 8 of them without serious ghost heat, right? Did I mention the ACH has ECM, and costs less tonnage, in addition to likely having much smaller profile and better hit boxes?

Legitimately...this mech brings nothing new to the table.

At least something that can do something we cannot already would be nice...

[Nightshade24]

Chimera11, on 02 April 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

It's too bad clans don't have any ridiculously tonnage-efficient lasers...

Oh wait

I wouldn't mind if all the small and med lasers pulse or not have linked ghost heat...

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

You do realize, the ACH already does the ERSL build just as well...especially since you cannot alpha 8 of them without serious ghost heat, right? Did I mention the ACH has ECM, and costs less tonnage, in addition to likely having much smaller profile and better hit boxes?

Legitimately...this mech brings nothing new to the table.

At least something that can do something we cannot already would be nice...

Dodgeball!

When science fails, move the target!

And you may indeed be right that for pure vomit, there is no real advantage. Though with ECM that limits you to 6 E hardpoints, which also means you can't slap on other weapons, etc. I'm thinking my 4 ERSL (arms) /1SPL and 4 MGs (Torso) +3DHS (+1 xtra truedub over the ACH) Viper will enjoy hunting those chronically borderline overheated ACH I see.

Of course we can play "let's pretend" all we want, the real answers won't be known till the mech drops (or sometime during the week lead up).

[3xnihilo]

I love my X-5 with 4ml & 2 srm4. I can see approximating something like this with the viper. Maybe csrm4's and a bunch of ersl.

[Bishop Steiner]

3xnihilo, on 02 April 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

I love my X-5 with 4ml & 2 srm4. I can see approximating something like this with the viper. Maybe csrm4's and a bunch of ersl.

Yeah. Probably be a little hot if you ran that with ERMLs. But with ERSLs, that would be a fun punch.

[3xnihilo]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 April 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

Yeah. Probably be a little hot if you ran that with ERMLs. But with ERSLs, that would be a fun punch.

If I decide to buy it, this is the build that won me over. I just picture it as an X-5 with JJ and that gets me a little excited

[cazidin]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

You do realize, the ACH already does the ERSL build just as well...especially since you cannot alpha 8 of them without serious ghost heat, right? Did I mention the ACH has ECM, and costs less tonnage, in addition to likely having much smaller profile and better hit boxes?

Legitimately...this mech brings nothing new to the table.

At least something that can do something we cannot already would be nice...

So, it's a slightly larger Arctic Cheetah with more armor, more jumpjets and if all goes well decent hitboxes. Wouldn't this obsolete the Arctic Cheetah if it didn't have ECM then?

[Gyrok]

cazidin, on 02 April 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

So, it's a slightly larger Arctic Cheetah with more armor, more jumpjets and if all goes well decent hitboxes. Wouldn't this obsolete the Arctic Cheetah if it didn't have ECM then?

No, it means the Viper is obsolete before it drops because no ECM and too heavy for what it carries.

If you want a medium with lots of speed bring IFR.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

No, it means the Viper is obsolete before it drops because no ECM and too heavy for what it carries.

If you want a medium with lots of speed bring IFR.

Fridge doesn't bring enough guns, this does.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

No, it means the Viper is obsolete before it drops because no ECM and too heavy for what it carries.

If you want a medium with lots of speed bring IFR.

no JJs. Thus not the same thing. Also lack of hardpoints on the IFR, and ECM is not near the Win Button it once was.

Finally.. some folks like their Cicadas...so having a Clan Cicada is A-OK with a lot of people. Especially a jumping clan cicada.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 April 2016 - 07:01 PM.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 April 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

no JJs. Thus not the same thing. Also lack of hardpoints on the IFR, and ECM is not near the Win Button it once was.

Finally.. some folks like their Cicadas...so having a Clan Cicada is A-OK with a lot of people. Especially a jumping clan cicada.

Yeah, one the size of a nova without ECM.

sounds like there is a lot of disparity between the CDA and the Viper.

Truth be told, I think the only positive this mech brings is that it will highlight the poor shape that small class lasers are in...

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

Yeah, one the size of a nova without ECM.

sounds like there is a lot of disparity between the CDA and the Viper.

Truth be told, I think the only positive this mech brings is that it will highlight the poor shape that small class lasers are in...

because .5 ton weapons are supposed ot be Uber?
(And because they aren't already one of the most widely used classes...even on Assault mechs?)

Also, 1) Nova just got a lot smaller, 2) volumetric scaling will place viper in similar ballpark to cicada. Nice attempt at the bogeyman, though.

[GreyNovember]

You mount up 8 CERSL/CSPL, and play it like an FS9-A with extra armor for close combat. Fire in a 4+4; arms and torso guns.

Great for anti light duty, and anti medium duty. Still remains relevant in the anti assault role because it can get behind them with the rest of the light lance, and cause pinpoint damage as opposed to the JIIC's spread damage.

Issues will be at ranges beyond it's admittedly tiny engagement range, and the fact that it's bigger. But that doesn't stop people from running Wubcadas.

I'm still not sure I understand Gyrok's issue. Is it one of relative power between it's medium clan competitors? Or overall " This mech is a vindicator don't bother urgh " ?

[Gyrok]

GreyNovember, on 02 April 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

Or overall " This mech is a vindicator don't bother urgh " ?

That sums it up nicely.

[GreyNovember]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

That sums it up nicely.

Fast and Potential rapid burst damage.

At this point, we seem to disagree on the value of what is essentially the FS9A on steroids.

I suppose we'll just have to see how long until " Dragonfly OP / Nerf CERSL / Nerf CERSL / Nerf mediums plox" threads come.

[Gyrok]

GreyNovember, on 02 April 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

Fast and Potential rapid burst damage.

At this point, we seem to disagree on the value of what is essentially the FS9A on steroids.

I suppose we'll just have to see how long until " Dragonfly OP / Nerf CERSL / Nerf CERSL / Nerf mediums plox" threads come.

I would be willing to bet never...

I was not on the "DoA" threads for a lot of mechs...

But...in this case...

We could have had the huntsman, we could have had the pouncer, we could have had so many other options that could actually bring weapons...we have enough tonnage starved mechs due to asinine amounts of JJs, etc. Why bring 1 more into the game?

It is not like clans have 150+ mech variants to pick from like the IS, the few we get would be nice to get something that will actually be relevant...like the huntsman, the pouncer, the night gyr, the turkina, the kingfisher...

I mean, at least it is not the phantom or black lanner, so there is that...but this is just about as much fail as the other 2.

[InRev]

Wait, am I missing something? The cERSL is an energy weapon system that is tied for 2nd for heat efficiency (1.667 vs 2 for iSPL and cSPL), has a perfectly workable range of 200m, has an acceptable burn time of 1 second, and has an alpha of 5 damage per unit at only half a ton, and yet itis considered to be in poor shape?

You can do 30 points of alpha on a 1 second burn time for only 18 heat and 3 tons. With a similar burn time, you would need to invest in 6 tons of iMLs, and that would cost you 24 heat and all you would gain is a piddling 70 meters.

As someone who runs around in a backstabber using iMPLs which have comparable range, weigh four times as much (permitting fewer heat sinks to be mounted), have worse overall heat efficiency (1.5 vs 1.667), and whose advantage in burn time is largely offset by the fact that 2 cERSLs have the same throughput at 1 ton vs 2 tons (1 damage per tenth of a second), can someone tell me why cERSLs are bad?

No really, what am I missing here? You can fire 2 cERSLs, turn away after 2/3 a second worth of burn time and STILL be more efficient than an iMPL due to the extra heat sinks you mounted.

[Gyrok]

InRev, on 02 April 2016 - 07:50 PM, said:

Wait, am I missing something? The cERSL is an energy weapon system that is tied for 2nd for heat efficiency (1.667 vs 2 for iSPL and cSPL), has a perfectly workable range of 200m, has an acceptable burn time of 1 second, and has an alpha of 5 damage per unit at only half a ton, and yet itis considered to be in poor shape?

You can do 30 points of alpha on a 1 second burn time for only 18 heat and 3 tons. With a similar burn time, you would need to invest in 6 tons of iMLs, and that would cost you 24 heat and all you would gain is a piddling 70 meters.

As someone who runs around in a backstabber using iMPLs which have comparable range, weigh four times as much (permitting fewer heat sinks to be mounted), have worse overall heat efficiency (1.5 vs 1.667), and whose advantage in burn time is largely offset by the fact that 2 cERSLs have the same throughput at 1 ton vs 2 tons (1 damage per tenth of a second), can someone tell me why cERSLs are bad?

No really, what am I missing here? You can fire 2 cERSLs, turn away after 2/3 a second worth of burn time and STILL be more efficient than an iMPL due to the extra heat sinks you mounted.

Actually, the IS ML gets full double fall off to 540m + range module.

The ERSL gets 70% fall off to 340m + range module.

It is not perfectly workable range at all...the IS ML gets 200m+ range advantage.

That is why small class lasers suck. They have no range, and they do not even get double their piddly range.

[GreyNovember]

I strongly believe the claim if vindicaror level quality is vastly exaggerated. Even if it had the nova's size, it also runs significantly faster for a tradeoff in alpha potential which caps off at 6 clan lasers anyway.

It has bite and speed. Things that would pose similar levels of threat Id wager would be shadowcats and blackjacks. Maybe crabs, if the crab in question was ERLL or XL based.

That already makes it not useless, and an actually solid thing to base a preorder decision off of.

Though I suppose that remains to be seen with regards to what variants will be available.