93 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Kaeb Odellas, on 03 April 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

1. Comparing the C-ERSL to an IS ERSL that doesn't exist in this game is utter nonsense.
2. The IS ERSL would still only deal 3 damage and have a shorter range than the Clan version, if PGI uses TT stats.
3. You compared an ER weapon and a non-ER weapon in this very thread!.

EDIT: For that matter, try comparing the C-SPL and the IS SPL. The C-SPL gets +50% damage and range for +50% beam duration and heat. The C-SPL is undeniably superior.

I compared ERSL and ML range to point out that...even before they were nerfed, there was sufficient range gap to give ML a significant advantage for the 1/2 ton cost difference...

cazidin, on 04 April 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

Almost 140 KPH WITH 8 JJ isn't fast enough?! This thing should and will dance around the battlefield like a mechanized ballerina!

Let me know when your 140 kph does damage to enemies...

until that day...viper is a waste...

[cazidin]

Gyrok, on 04 April 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

Let me know when your 140 kph does damage to enemies...

until that day...viper is a waste...

Well, if an Arctic Cheetah is any indication it allows me to twist quickly to spread damage, avoid enemy lasers and projectiles if I'm far enough away, the JJ will allow me to soar high into the sky and high speeds, high agility AND JJ just generally improves the survivability of any mech.

[Roadkill]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 April 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

except that ERSLs also weigh half as much, so you can slap in about 4 more DHS than the ACH, and unlike the ACH the VPR starts with 10 truedubs

ACH has 9 truedubs, so the difference is negligible. It certainly doesn't make up for 4 extra small lasers (compared to the 5 CSPL ACH, which is far more manageable than the 6 CSPL ACH).

And if CERSL are so great, then why don't we see more of these instead of the 5/6 CSPL versions?

139 kph works for the ACH because of its size and hit boxes. Viper doesn't look like it's going to have either the ACH size or hit boxes.

I'm sensing Cicada vs Jenner, clan version, where the Jenner has ECM.

[Snowbluff]

Viper C looks like the best.

2 ERML, 3 SPL, and then 4 machine guns.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 04 April 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

until that day...viper is a waste...

You're reaching a bit here.

Will it be top tier? Depends on the quirks it gets (minor heat gen and structure is all it would need).
Will it be good though? Yes, it is more heat efficient than the Cheetah, and despite being down a DHS compared to the Jenner IIC, it mounts a decent amount of armor instead.

Roadkill, on 04 April 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

And if CERSL are so great, then why don't we see more of these instead of the 5/6 CSPL versions?

Because SPLs are not balanced 1:1 with ERSL, to match the effectiveness of SPLs, you need to mount more ERSLs.

People should probably stop comparing it to the Cheetah though, since while they share the same speed, there are bigger differences. The JR7-IIC-A is the most comparable.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadkill, on 04 April 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

ACH has 9 truedubs, so the difference is negligible. It certainly doesn't make up for 4 extra small lasers (compared to the 5 CSPL ACH, which is far more manageable than the 6 CSPL ACH).

And if CERSL are so great, then why don't we see more of these instead of the 5/6 CSPL versions?

139 kph works for the ACH because of its size and hit boxes. Viper doesn't look like it's going to have either the ACH size or hit boxes.

I'm sensing Cicada vs Jenner, clan version, where the Jenner has ECM.

1 extra Truedub AND the ability to pack 4 more DHS. That's the difference. And CERSLs are one of the best weapons in the game, hands down.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

You're reaching a bit here.

It's Gyrok, of course he is, lol.

[Gas Guzzler]

So, 6 cSPLs is possible. I think this will probably be one of the best builds on this thing.

Also, 5 cERMLs all in the torsos, with stripped arms to maximize DHS, I think you end up with 14 DHS and 5 CERMLs, maybe you can fit another DHS in an arm too but you might lose it because of stripped armor, and it will have crazy hops and high mounted torso hard points, would not be a bad poke mech, not quite as good as the 6 cERML Jenner, but it will probably be more durable.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 April 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

2x ERLL... and a Flamer, because why not?

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

You're reaching a bit here.

Will it be top tier? Depends on the quirks it gets (minor heat gen and structure is all it would need).
Will it be good though? Yes, it is more heat efficient than the Cheetah, and despite being down a DHS compared to the Jenner IIC, it mounts a decent amount of armor instead.

You could be emotionally attached as well...

Remember the sub 250 engine lights get quirks to offset the loss of true DHS in the internal engine this month or in may.

Meaning the viper has more armor and worse hit boxes, and no ECM.

Edited by Gyrok, 04 April 2016 - 12:03 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 04 April 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Remember the sub 250 engine lights get quirks to offset the loss of true DHS in the internal engine.

That isn't in the game quite yet, I won't hold my breath on PGI's "solution".

Gyrok, on 04 April 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Meaning the viper has more armor and worse hit boxes, and no ECM.

Worse hitboxes, not quite, but it will be bigger. ECM isn't a big deal since it isn't scouting (like the Jenner IIC). Sure ECM is nice, but the Jenner IIC does fine without it which everyone seems to forget in these discussions.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[Roadkill]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 April 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

1 extra Truedub AND the ability to pack 4 more DHS. That's the difference. And CERSLs are one of the best weapons in the game, hands down.

ACH has 8 tons of payload vs 8.5 for the Viper. You can carry the same 4 "extra" DHS on the ACH if you carry 6 CERSL instead of CSPL, so the only difference between them is the single extra truedub.

No one carries that on an ACH, though. Why do you suppose that is?

Hint: burn time is vital on a fast-moving Light.

[1453 R]

I think a lot of folks might be discounting the Viper a bit prematurely.

If the torso energy hardpoints are in the same spots as the machine guns, then running DuaLarge with this machine will be about as effective as DuaLarge can be. The Viper’s intense mobility, both horizontal and vertical, means it can find all sorts of awkward nooks and niches to aggravate people with using the heavy beams. DuaLarge sniping isn’t really seen as Great Team Play, no, but perhaps the Viper can reinvigorate it.

Alternatively, the ‘Mech has enormously better hardpoint placement for light beam skirmishing than the Chilly Furry. As has been pointed out, you can run 5E in the torso alone and use the arms to shield whilst poking and peeking like a champ. It can’t have worse hitboxes than the Furry, and the crazyballs jump mobility the Viper brings opens up options the hardpoint-starved Ice Ferret couldn’t ever really imagine.

Ignoring things like “The Cheetah does everything this does but better!” or “why use this when Jenner-IICs exist?!” for a moment…the Viper is capable of 8E/9E, at ~135kph, with the best jump capability in the game. Mass beam spam may be boring, but it works, and you can always switch up the beams. One of my favorite Cheetah fits is 2x cERML and 4x cERSL, built to poke at a distance with the mediums and knife-fight with the smalls. The Viper can do that much better than the Cheetah can; 4x cERML in the torso hardpoints, 4x cERSL in the arms, with two additional heat sinks on stock podspace or three if you find half a ton of armor to shave.

You can also do a centerline cERLL for harassment and early-game pokeysnipe contributions, while loading eight cERSL in the arms and shoulders for mass minibeam knife fights, though that will get warm in a hurry. And unlike the Cheetah (or the Pouncer, or the utterly-worthless Coyotl, or even the Phantom), the Viper has plenty of machine gun hardpoints, should machine guns ever not be useless. Future-proofing!

I figure the de facto Galactic Standard Viper will probably be hex or sept cSPL with heat sinks, or cERML pokeboats using the torso hardpoints (and heat sinks). It’s not quite as limited as people figure it is, though I agree that the missile hardpoints are not going to do it much good at this stage. If machine guns ever stop sucking, though? Defo Clan Ember time.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Worse hitboxes, not quite, but it will be bigger. ECM isn't a big deal since it isn't scouting (like the Jenner IIC). Sure ECM is nice, but the Jenner IIC does fine without it which everyone seems to forget in these discussions.

Let us be honest...

Any mech not named Spider, Cheetah, or Firestarter has worse hit boxes than any of those 3. There is not really a discussion to be had there...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 04 April 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Let us be honest...

Any mech not named Spider, Cheetah, or Firestarter has worse hit boxes than any of those 3. There is not really a discussion to be had there...

Hitboxes are only part of the equation, Vindicator has good hitboxes (better than the BJ technically), but weapon placement hits it hard. The weapon placement on the Cheetah is not ideal either.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[1453 R]

Gyrok, on 04 April 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Let us be honest...

Any mech not named Spider, Cheetah, or Firestarter has worse hit boxes than any of those 3. There is not really a discussion to be had there...

Heh…well, let us be realistic in turn, ‘Rokie.

A fast Clan 40-tonner and/or medium-in-general (Viper, Phantom, Grendel, Blanner) is going to be compared to the Arctic Cheetah and will, in general, be found wanting. A slow Clan 40-tonner and/or medium-in-general (Pouncer, Huntsman, let-it-just-die-please Coyotl) is going to be compared to the Stormcrow and will, in general, be found wanting.

We’re not going to Revolutionize The Clan Gamespace here no matter what we introduce. The objective is a gradient of options, like what the Inner Sphere has, rather than introducing something that will be a complete game-changer. The game-changers are already in. Nothing is going to measure up to the Stormcrow as a medium face-puncher, and very little will match the Cheetah outright as a high-speed poke and strike platform.

I would argue that the Viper comes closest on the poke and strike front, while the Huntsman is probably the best you can do for non-Stormcrow Clan medium facepunchers. Neither of those ‘Mechs are going to take MWO by storm…but that hardly means they’re not worth introducing, ne?

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Hitboxes are only part of the equation, Vindicator has good hitboxes (better than the BJ technically), but weapon placement hits it hard. The weapon placement on the Cheetah is not ideal either.

The cheetah shoulders are supposedly the best ever mounts for any light ever according to the "Cheetah OP" crowd...

[Roadkill]

1453 R, on 04 April 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

I figure the de facto Galactic Standard Viper will probably be hex or sept cSPL with heat sinks

7 appears viable (ACH-C) because it has 30% heat efficiency, but my experience with 6 CSPL says it's too damn hot. The Viper will be slightly more heat efficient, but likely only 1% or so.

I'm not at all claiming DOA; in fact I think it will probably be a fine Mech. But people who are thinking it's going to be great are fooling themselves. Tall and thin (ACH-style geometry) trumps short and fat (Nova/Viper geometry) every time. The ACH will likely be more survivable than the Viper even at 10 tons lighter weight. And then on top of that the ACH has ECM.

So sure, the Viper will probably be a fine Mech. But that's it. It won't compete with the ACH in a comp deck.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roadkill, on 04 April 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

It won't compete with the JR7-IIC-A in a comp deck.

FTFY, because that's what it is actually competing against.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 01:29 PM.

[Roadkill]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

FTFY, because that's what it is actually competing against.

What makes you say that?

To me, the JR7-IIC-A competes with (and loses to) the ACH also.

What role does the JR7-IIC-A fill that the ACH cannot fill better?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roadkill, on 04 April 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

What role does the JR7-IIC-A fill that the ACH cannot fill better?

Combat role, while it lacks ECM, it is (very slightly) more durable and also mounts more DHS which allow it to do more damage. More often I'd take a JR7-IIC-A instead of an ACH unless I needed a scout which the ACH still is the most capable at. It is also runs ERMLs much better since you can drop the engine down for DHS (and if the Viper could drop 6 JJs, it would be near as good with 6 ERML too).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 01:39 PM.