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Next Clan Mechs. (Post 4/1/16)


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#141 pbiggz

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 04:26 PM

Your mistaking the meta forcing players to do similar builds for mechs forcing the players to do similar builds.

Most every mech that matters competitively right now is laser vomit because laser vomit allows for 50+ point alphas without ghost heat or other penalties.

When I say options, I don't mean meta options. Hang the meta, Im self aware enough to know when a build is **** but I still build and run mechs I find fun, not mechs I know will get the other team spamming general discussion threads about this or that weapon OP pls nerf.

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

It has builds, but only two really matter, and both are on the STK-4N. Let's not even bring LRMs into consideration, so that leaves mostly lasers and srms, doesn't sound that diverse to me. Sure it could do PPCs, but there are better options.


Stalkers have a ton of hardpoints across a ton of variants. Iv run ER laser stalkers, pulse laser stalkers, and back in the day I used to love running the medium laser srm brawlstalker.

OPTIONS.

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

Or because that's really their only advantage over the Jager, because low mount ballistics aren't good, just ask the Battlemasters how often they reliably use ballistics.


But its there if people want to use it. If you wanted to strap an ultra autocannon on to your thunderbolt you could. I wouldn't the build kind of sucks, but what that means is in the future, when we have more weapons to play with, you could potentially see thunderbolts running hybrid builds with perhaps light gauss rifles or other weapons of that nature. Very likely alot of it will be non-meta perhaps bordering on crap, but again..

OPTIONS

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

2D2 runs pretty much one build (AC10 and SRMs). The 2K runs 3 lasers, end of list.


You apparently havent seen many shadow hawks. Iv run everything from PPCs and SRMs on the 2k to jump sniper shadowhawks way back in the day, to 2d2s with ac20s, to triple AC2 shadowhawks. I almost never run the triple ER large shadowhawk because its boring ****.

Not all these builds are meta, but again

OPTIONS

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

6R is the one to run PPCs on, doing lasers on it is worthless because the 6D does it better. The Warhammers are somewhat flexible as a chassis, but not individually, the Black Widow relies on ballistics, 6R on PPCs, 6D on lasers, and the 7S doesn't matter.


So you just agreed with me, the warhammer presents you with OPTIONS.

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

I question what you think is reasonable.


I dont care what you think is reasonable. I dont care what SJR runs in their comp drop decks. I literally could not give less of a ****. If clicking on robots is the only way people validate themselves then they need to go outside for a bit, maybe get a job.

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

Actually not, having this many mechs without having them be eclipsed by others IS to pigeon hole mechs. Sorry but customization can in fact be the bane of diversity with regards to the meta, so pigeon holing (or more appropriately termed specialized mechs) is necessary.


Let me drop a bit of game designer talk on you since im sitting in front of unity right now pounding out last minute assets for the game me and my group mates are presenting at the levelup competition in toronto on wednesday (I of course mention this to show you that technically im qualified to talk about these things with some kind of authority):

If you make a game, and your game is 50% customizing, and 50% combat, and then you release content that either interacts with exclusively the customizing (i.e. only half the game) or exclusively with the combat (i.e. only half the game), then that content should be reworked until it interacts with 100% of the game, or not released at all.

Consider the viper: It will probably see use on the battlefield filling a single role, and little else. The fact that it will minimally interface with the mechlab means that the mech is really only valuable for half the gameplay it should be good for. In other words, gameplay wise, its literally worth half the money. Im not talking about actual battlefield viability, or anything like that, this is purely a top down analysis of the flaws of such content from an outside perspective.

Consider on the flip side, the summoner: It rarely sees use on the field. It does really one thing OK, double PPC, and plenty of mechs do it better, so we can say with some certainty that the content minimally interfaces with about half the game. All the summoner does is sit in peoples' mech labs, taking up space, or occasionally being poked at when the meta changes and people want to see if the mech will perform. Thats it. Its just as bad as the viper, but in an opposite way.

Honestly I can tell you i might pick the mech up for cbills. 40 tons is a nice slot to fill and I expect the job it will do, it will do well. I wont buy it for real money because aside from being a relatively poor student, I understand how capitalism works, and I'm voting with my wallet. If PGI wants to continue releasing mechs the money they will get out of me will be for clan assaults, which I feel are more needed in the game right now. Now that the 40 ton gap is filled, I see there as being little reason NOT to put in an assault some time in the next few months.


View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

Now that said, the omnimech construction rules do harm customization too much, but it wouldn't really change much in what the Viper could do, only make it better at it and probably compete directly with the Jenner IIC without quirks.


Omnimech rules have failed in my opinion. PGI gets credit for trying, they really do, but future mechwarrior titles should take note. If you want Omni build rules, then stock loadouts must be adjusted to reflect the meta or the mechs will not see use. The only good omnis are the ones with enough podspace or engines of a reasonable size to make sure that whatever the meta, they have some battlefield viability. The omnis that do not see use are the ones with too little podspace, to large or too small engines, whos fixed components and constraints mean that the player cannot customize the mech in any way that matters.

You're right to say the viper would probably do the same thing, but that extra workable tonnage you might get from strapping on endo steel, shrinking the engine just a few ratings, stripping armour of components here and there, could be the difference between you running a double ER PPC (hot i know but its just an example) or light ballistic build rather than only lasers, just lasers, all the time, maybe with a few machine guns.

The Viper doesnt suck because its a viper, it sucks because you can't make it into what you want. Whether its meta or not, the fact that it will always go the same speed, and have more or less the same loadout, with the same strengths and weaknesses, is quite frankly insulting to the game.


I think i've argued my point enough. refer to this post if you have questions about my position on this mech.

TLDR, if you can't customize it, it should be changed so you can, or just not included. It doesnt matter whether those customizations are meta or not, players MUST be allowed that freedom in a game where having that freedom is a central pillar of gameplay.

#142 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 04:48 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Most every mech that matters competitively right now is laser vomit because laser vomit allows for 50+ point alphas without ghost heat or other penalties.

Wrong.

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

When I say options, I don't mean meta options. Hang the meta, Im self aware enough to know when a build is **** but I still build and run mechs I find fun

Well, if they aren't optimal, even the Viper offers some options. You could take a UAC5 if you wanted to, or MGs and Flamers, or a variety of bad builds.

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

If clicking on robots is the only way people validate themselves then they need to go outside for a bit, maybe get a job.

I'll bite because this ad hominem is just plain silly, because guess what, we do have jobs *shocked*

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Let me drop a bit of game designer talk on you since im sitting in front of unity right now pounding out last minute assets for the game me and my group mates are presenting at the levelup competition in toronto on wednesday (I of course mention this to show you that technically im qualified to talk about these things with some kind of authority):

If you make a game, and your game is 50% customizing, and 50% combat, and then you release content that either interacts with exclusively the customizing (i.e. only half the game) or exclusively with the combat (i.e. only half the game), then that content should be reworked until it interacts with 100% of the game, or not released at all.

Except you are forgetting one thing, not everyone spends the same amount of time in the mechlab, and even then full customization doesn't mean you can't tweak things either. Take the MW4 days for example where you could have the same weapon loadout but have 4+ variants setup with the exact same thing, each with just different tweaks (speed, heat sink heavy, reactive, reflective, etc). Now the Viper doesn't have the most options, but there are still options and the key part is that there are at least solid options, not worthless options like a Grasshoppers head missile hardpoint.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 04:56 PM.


#143 Metus regem

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 05:20 PM

I need more popcorn for this back and forth between Biggz and Quicksilver.....

#144 Y E O N N E

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 05:55 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

Apparently this is too complex for you to get it through your head, so I'll boil it down even more. The question is really will the viper be fun, and the answer is no, it won't be. It will neither see extended nor varied use and it'll just rot in people's mech bays or be relegated to drop deck tonnage filler at best. So if it's not fun in a video game, why is it in the video game? Someone who's only consideration is competitive meta would probably have trouble answering that question.


Uh...you should not speak for the general population when trying to determine if something is "fun."

Also, I'm in the recruitment phase for a comp team, I do the meta when I must, but my favorite 'Mechs to play are things like the Locust and Mist Lynx, neither of which have been historically prolific but I find fun. AC/2 are also fun for me, and those tend to "rot" in the 'Mech bays of most, too.

So, kindly, speak only for yourself when saying something isn't fun. Fun is defined on an individual basis.

#145 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 05:55 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

Apparently this is too complex for you to get it through your head, so I'll boil it down even more. The question is really will the viper be fun, and the answer is no, it won't be. It will neither see extended nor varied use and it'll just rot in people's mech bays or be relegated to drop deck tonnage filler at best. So if it's not fun in a video game, why is it in the video game? Someone who's only consideration is competitive meta would probably have trouble answering that question.


Viper.

6 cSPLs
5 cERMLs
MGs + cSPLs
ER SLs + SRMs

OPTIONS

Also, tons of meta mechs are not laser vomit builds, but I also noticed you claim to not be concerned with the meta and then turn around and say we shouldn't get the Viper because it isn't meta enough. Well, if you don't care about the meta you could do whatever you want with the thing.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 April 2016 - 05:55 PM.


#146 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 05:56 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

Apparently this is too complex for you to get it through your head, so I'll boil it down even more. The question is really will the viper be fun, and the answer is no, it won't be. It will neither see extended nor varied use and it'll just rot in people's mech bays or be relegated to drop deck tonnage filler at best. So if it's not fun in a video game, why is it in the video game? Someone who's only consideration is competitive meta would probably have trouble answering that question.

Biggz....

once the emotions start and the insults go, it's time to step back. Objectivity is gone.

And fun? It's subjective. You and Imperious and Gyrok may indeed not find the Viper fun. From what I have seen on the forums? Plenty of Ice Ferret, Raven and Cicada jockeys are expecting it to be quite so.

You don't like it. Wasn't your choice. Got it.

Whether it's viable, remains to be seen, because it's all speculation until it drops, but theorycrafting leans more toward yes than anything factual I've seen toward no. Fun , is not something you get to decide, but it's to the individual.

But defaulting to "you against the world" everyone is against you and making it personal? That's where you guys lost a lot of potential support for the mkII. Railing in the same way because the VPR ain't for you, accomplishes nothing, but alienating more people.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 April 2016 - 05:57 PM.


#147 LastKhan

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:08 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 04 April 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

Biggz....

once the emotions start and the insults go, it's time to step back. Objectivity is gone.

And fun? It's subjective. You and Imperious and Gyrok may indeed not find the Viper fun. From what I have seen on the forums? Plenty of Ice Ferret, Raven and Cicada jockeys are expecting it to be quite so.

You don't like it. Wasn't your choice. Got it.

Whether it's viable, remains to be seen, because it's all speculation until it drops, but theorycrafting leans more toward yes than anything factual I've seen toward no. Fun , is not something you get to decide, but it's to the individual.

But defaulting to "you against the world" everyone is against you and making it personal? That's where you guys lost a lot of potential support for the mkII. Railing in the same way because the VPR ain't for you, accomplishes nothing, but alienating more people.


This. No matter how much you _itch an moan like somehow its going to get Russ to change his mind, its still getting put into the game. Get over it, dont buy it. You sir and a few others are not the arbiters of what is "Fun".

Edited by LastKhan, 04 April 2016 - 06:12 PM.


#148 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:13 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

Apparently this is too complex for you to get it through your head, so I'll boil it down even more. The question is really will the viper be fun, and the answer is no, it won't be.

Nevermind, people already pretty much said what I was going to.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 06:14 PM.


#149 Lucian Nostra

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:19 PM

What Yeonne, Gas, Bishop and Khan said, if you don't like it don't buy it, people will find a use for it, I myself will run it because I really enjoy speedy jumpy mechs. I expect lasers + MGs or lasers and some SRMs but prolly mostly lasers. It's not a mech that will appeal to everyone but NO mech appeals to everyone and that's fine.

You and Imperius act like PGI is FORCING you guys to buy mechs they put out..

#150 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:30 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

Spare me the patronizing lecture. Im a game designer

So because you design games, you are infallible.....just like Gyrok right? Paul designs games too, he must know what he is doing...

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 06:31 PM.


#151 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:32 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

FTFY, I dont give a **** about meta. We shouldnt get the viper because it doesnt do anything, not because it isnt meta. Unless the meta shifts to single ultra autocannon 5s or small LRM launchers the viper will continue to not do anything because its builds are the same no matter what because you literally cannot fit anything else on them.


Dude, that is as "same" as your Stalker build examples were.

Get a grip man, you are going crazy over a mech that isn't even that bad. We needed a 40 tonner, you aren't going to get Stormcrow fire out of it and that's fine, its still going to be a useful mech.

#152 pbiggz

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:32 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

So because you design games, you are infallible.....just like Gyrok right? Paul designs games too, he must know what he is doing...


Did i say I was infallible? I am giving you my opinion. You're not having it, again, your prerogative, have fun with your **** mech.

#153 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:34 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:


Did i say I was infallible? I am giving you my opinion. You're not having it, again, your prerogative, have fun with your **** mech.


If you don't care about meta how is it a **** mech?

#154 pbiggz

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:35 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 04 April 2016 - 06:34 PM, said:


If you don't care about meta how is it a **** mech?


because 8 tons of podspace isnt enough podspace to kill an unarmoured locust.

#155 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:36 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:


because 8 tons of podspace isnt enough podspace to kill an unarmoured locust.


Lol RIIIGHT now you are making perfect sense.

That is why the Arctic Cheetah is garbage too right?

And its really 9 if you strip a dead arm and run 6 cSPL. 6cSPLs will core you out pretty quick.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 April 2016 - 06:37 PM.


#156 pbiggz

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:38 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 04 April 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:


Lol RIIIGHT now you are making perfect sense.

That is why the Arctic Cheetah is garbage too right?

And its really 9 if you strip a dead arm and run 6 cSPL. 6cSPLs will core you out pretty quick.


10 tons lighter, carries an appropriate amount of firepower.

You're comparing it to the cheetah, so you've already accepted my argument that its undergunned, even for a 40 tonner.

#157 LastKhan

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:41 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:


I kinda make money off being an arbiter on things that are fun or not...



yeah, no. Saying you know whats best for other people.. just speak for your own damn self. You act like this one mech is gonna break PGI's bank.. okay if it doesnt sell well then they'll make another pixelated robit and sell that. Hell even the middle of the month another will be up, and another after that. Drink!

#158 Lucian Nostra

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:42 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

Every trash mech PGI releases is a good mech PGI isnt releasing. How many good mechs are down the road that could have come sooner if PGI just doubled down and added them to the game? The uziel, bushwhacker, akuma, mk ii, blood asp, hellhound, guillotine, the other IICs, etc. Each **** mech they release is a step closer to killing the game. They dont have the 5-7 years they are pretending they have. If the game isn't up to snuff (i.e. at least close to what they promised in october of 2011) then the game will never be what they promised, or in other words, its dead in the water. I kinda like the game, but if you enjoy injecting cancer straight into it then enjoy your 40 tonner, and while you're at it, go beg russ for the flea and firemoth, im sure they will revolutionize MWO.


Uziel - what exactly does this do that other 50-55 ton mechs dont?
Bushwhacker - see Uziel
Akuma - thanks for the Atlas-Banshee
Madcat mk II - jumping warhawk
Blood Asp - 42tons of guns, decent speed, but if the turkina is a crappy ridge humper (as im informed it would be) the asp will be even worse)
Hellhound - Stormcrow still better
Gullotine - oh hi grasshopper clone!
IICs - not gonna run through all of them but except ok to meh as IS variants go.

So what maybe the Blood Asp (42 tons of guns at 64 kph) will have an impact but beyond nostaglia none of the mechs you listed will cause any 'revolutionary' changes to MWO as it stands either.

We're at the point in MWO where mechy-mon doesnt really offer us something we don't already have in some form already and getting upset at mech choices is just plain foolish. Your choices don't offer anything more than the Viper

edit: changes in thought

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 04 April 2016 - 06:52 PM.


#159 pbiggz

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:42 PM

View PostLastKhan, on 04 April 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:


yeah, no. Saying you know whats best for other people.. just speak for your own damn self. You act like this one mech is gonna break PGI's bank.. okay if it doesnt sell well then they'll make another pixelated robit and sell that. Hell even the middle of the month another will be up, and another after that. Drink!


One step closer to a dead game. Hope you enjoy it.

#160 50 50

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:44 PM

No Clan 40 tonner at the moment so the Dragonfly will fit that spot.
If there is at least 1 mech at each 5 ton increment then it makes building the drop decks and fitting the group tonnage limits easier.

I am all for more mechs in the game simply for the sake of saying that there is a huge number of mechs in the game.
However, a new mech doesn't change the gameplay.
We really need all that information warfare from the test server added in to build more depth into the battles.
From there, the different mechs get another point of difference and added purpose.

Can we petition that somewhere?





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