1049 replies to this topic

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Gib Locust IIC.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Conjurer/Hellhound MW4 edition or finally the Mad Cat MK II

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 April 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

I did not realize that Clan MEchs were limited to Omnis.

Someone tell that to the Shadowcat, Summoner and Gargoyle.

I have no problem in it being not-omni. I was just correcting the guy.

Of the 3 you mentioned, I own only the Shadowcat and to be honest, I play it better than my Stormcrows (and certainly have more fun).

I agree those 3 could get better quirks, but they are not awful.

Summoner and Gargoyle = I know guys that make good use of them.

[Odanan]

ScarecrowES, on 05 April 2016 - 05:59 PM, said:

Just to make sure youre clear... the Mad Cat II listed under Jade Falcon is a wholly different mech than the MkII. You'll notice all the factions listed as having access to the MkII are aligned with the Inner Sphere (fighting on their behalf) or direct allies with Diamond Shark, or both.

None of the factions we'd understand as "Clan" in MWO... meaning aligned against the Inner Sphere during the time of release... have access to the mech.

It may seem like semantics, but it's important to remember on whose side someone is fighting. If you're looking at which vehicles to put on which side in a historical battle between the United States and its allies and anyone who's an enemy of those groups... a Panzer IV... produced by Germany... is an enemy vehicle. But a Leopard, also produced by Germany, is an allied vehicle. Context matters.

I didn't find the entry for the Mad Cat II in sarna (it redirects to the MK II).

About the Panzer/Leopard, it doesn't matter with who Germany is allied, it is still European (as Clan in general) and well... German (as Clan Jade Falcon). MWO doesn't formally treat alliances. Steiner and Davion, for instance, are enemies as any other faction.

I get it, you want to pilot Clan mechs as an IS pilot (best of both words?) in CW. So each mech variant would not be simply Clan or IS, but could be Clan tech for some IS houses, or IS tech for some Clans. Don't you see how complicate that is?

Edited by Odanan, 06 April 2016 - 02:19 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

ScarecrowES, on 05 April 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

This is a problem the BLanner, Linebacker, and Viper don't have. Plenty of hardpoints, compact models, and build paths that synergize with the speed they carry. All fast strike mechs with survivability.

So you mean, they are small pulse boats with no other function?

I.e. they do the job of the Arctic Cheetah, while costing between 10 and 35 tons more for no actual reason? Nice.

Dont care, wont buy, just pointing it out.

[FerrokenFibrous]

ScarecrowES, on 05 April 2016 - 05:59 PM, said:

Just to make sure youre clear... the Mad Cat II listed under Jade Falcon is a wholly different mech than the MkII. You'll notice all the factions listed as having access to the MkII are aligned with the Inner Sphere (fighting on their behalf) or direct allies with Diamond Shark, or both.

None of the factions we'd understand as "Clan" in MWO... meaning aligned against the Inner Sphere during the time of release... have access to the mech.

It may seem like semantics, but it's important to remember on whose side someone is fighting. If you're looking at which vehicles to put on which side in a historical battle between the United States and its allies and anyone who's an enemy of those groups... a Panzer IV... produced by Germany... is an enemy vehicle. But a Leopard, also produced by Germany, is an allied vehicle. Context matters.

Only Smoke Jaguar should build and use the Ebon Jaguar, yet every other Clan faction is capable of purchasing and fielding the 'Mech.

Context has long been thrown out the window in MWO ever since the Ebon stopped being a Smoke-exclusive 'Mech, all pilots in and out of CW (including contraction-hating Clan "Trueborns") are mercs, Davion and Steiner were allowed to attack each other BEFORE the FedCom Civil War, and the Battle(s) of Tukayyid involved Clans vs Houses with zero MixTech involved, rather than Clans vs ComStar with lots of Clan and IS 'Mechs on both sides.

MWO does not exclusively and religiously follow the main BT continuity, faction unit lists and allegiances, and even if they were to advance the timeline, it is probably going to be the more likely case that ClanTech 'Mechs such as the Mk2 and Nova Cat will still remain Clan-exclusive, and that Clan Nova Cat will be just as much of a Clan faction as the other invading Clans.

[Odanan]

FerrokenFibrous, on 06 April 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

Only Smoke Jaguar should build and use the Ebon Jaguar, yet every other Clan faction is capable of purchasing and fielding the 'Mech.

Context has long been thrown out the window in MWO ever since the Ebon stopped being a Smoke-exclusive 'Mech, all pilots in and out of CW (including contraction-hating Clan "Trueborns") are mercs, Davion and Steiner were allowed to attack each other BEFORE the FedCom Civil War,

Yep!

FerrokenFibrous, on 06 April 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

and the Battle(s) of Tukayyid involved Clans vs Houses with zero MixTech involved, rather than Clans vs ComStar with lots of Clan and IS 'Mechs on both sides.

What? I was not aware Comstar had Clan mechs or weapons (how did they get it?). Or the Clans used IS tech in Tuk (why they would?).

FerrokenFibrous, on 06 April 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

MWO does not exclusively and religiously follow the main BT continuity, faction unit lists and allegiances, and even if they were to advance the timeline, it is probably going to be the more likely case that ClanTech 'Mechs such as the Mk2 and Nova Cat will still remain Clan-exclusive, and that Clan Nova Cat will be just as much of a Clan faction as the other invading Clans.

Agreed!

[Odanan]

Widowmaker1981, on 06 April 2016 - 02:24 AM, said:

So you mean, they are small pulse boats with no other function?

I.e. they do the job of the Arctic Cheetah, while costing between 10 and 35 tons more for no actual reason? Nice.

Dont care, wont buy, just pointing it out.

You could say many mechs do the job of lighter ones (like the Cicada, Ice Ferret, Dragon, Quickdraw, Gargoyle, Executioner...).

I don't mind an omnimech with huge engine - I can make it work. I usually mount the heaviest engines on my battlemechs, anyway. What I can't compensate is an omnimech too slow for it's weight class, like the Kit Fox and Adder (and ultimately, the Cougar).

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 06 April 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

I get it, you want to pilot Clan mechs as an IS pilot (best of both words?) in CW. So each mech variant would not be simply Clan or IS, but could be Clan tech for some IS houses, or IS tech for some Clans. Don't you see how complicate that is?

Bingo! That's the problem that a Mech like the Mad Cat Mk II presents, a lot of the people using it would like to use it in all features of the game, regardless of faction they are on. That is where I have problems, once that dumpster fire happens there is almost no point to faction balance, the flavor if the different factions is lost. I would be much happier if they tightened up Mech restrictions for CW, so that you either had to use general faction mechs, or faction specific mechs (that get LP boosts, such as the Dragon for Katura). For quick play / group play. I don't care, play what you like. But for the Mk II, I hope PGI sorts out the future Tech it needs for the different variants before they put it in.

Odanan, on 06 April 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

I don't mind an omnimech with huge engine - I can make it work. I usually mount the heaviest engines on my battlemechs, anyway. What I can't compensate is an omnimech too slow for it's weight class, like the Kit Fox and Adder (and ultimately, the Cougar).

That's too bad, I really enjoy my pocket medium Adder, a lot more than most lights anyways.

[Widowmaker1981]

Odanan, on 06 April 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

You could say many mechs do the job of lighter ones (like the Cicada, Ice Ferret, Dragon, Quickdraw, Gargoyle, Executioner...).

I don't mind an omnimech with huge engine - I can make it work. I usually mount the heaviest engines on my battlemechs, anyway. What I can't compensate is an omnimech too slow for it's weight class, like the Kit Fox and Adder (and ultimately, the Cougar).

Imo, too fast for its weight class is worse.. Adder is actually decent with the quirks it has.

I mount LARGE engines in my mechs, but not the heaviest, and thats the point. Engines past 350 have a SEVERE diminishing returns for tonnage issue because of the almost exponential tonnage increase, and really shouldn't be used, except in the heaviest of assault mechs, and even then going past 375 is a bad idea outside of VERY specific builds.

Using a 360 in a 45 tonner, or a 385 in a 55 tonner is absolute idiocy, because you are creating a mech with less payload at the same speed as a lighter mech. In other words pissing tonnage up the wall.


(for example, a 55 ton mech with a 385 goes at 125 kph. to get the same speed from a 50 ton mech youd need a 350. Since the 385 weighs 7 tons more than the 350, the 50 ton mech is getting 2 more tons to spend on gear, and is therefore obviously a better mech, for less tonnage.)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 06 April 2016 - 05:19 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

To a lot of the points about faction availability, this is a part of a larger dialog which I'll not bother repeating here. Suffice it to say, MWO doesnt draw the distinction between individual factions within the main one. So it's only important to insure the right toys go into the right outbox. But like I said... that whole shebang has been explained elsewhere and I don't feel we need to shift the thread to that.

As far as opening tech bases to all factions causing balance problems, I actually think it will do the opposite. Right now PGI is forced to balance each weapon on the Clan side against its IS counterpart in order to keep specific parity between the two. This is what causes your balance issues. It's an attempt to bring both sides to the middle and make the same build at the same weight class in each tech base to perform exactly the same.

This is a horrible idea. You want balance? You need to make Clan tech and IS tech fundementally different. You need to make building and piloting IS and Clan mechs completely differwnt experiences. Clan and IS should play completely different. You can't really do that and at the same time try to retain perfect parity so you can keep tech bases seperate for CW.

The best solution is to eliminate tech exclusivity... at least on a limited basis for CW. It already doesnt exist pubs queues where parity doesnt matter in the least. At least allow each faction in CW to bring a certain weight of opposite faction mechs. Then, fully differentiate the tech bases.

I guarantee your balance will be much better if you do this.

[FerrokenFibrous]

Odanan, on 06 April 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

What? I was not aware Comstar had Clan mechs or weapons (how did they get it?). Or the Clans used IS tech in Tuk (why they would?).

I would assume that Comstar had obtained ClanTech the same way the rest of the IS did: through salvaged/captured Clan 'Mechs. As for the Clans, well, they were probably getting desperate and/or running out of IIC and Omnimechs, so some of their second-line and cannon-fodder units ended up using IS 'Mechs (alternatively, it could be a sign that some warriors wanted to prove their worth by using 'Mechs that they regard as inferior).

I am not really completely sure if the Clans did use IS 'Mechs during that battle, but I think I read somewhere once that both sides were, indeed, using a mix of 'Mechs from both tech bases (though I am yet to verify that statement or find proper citation, so it might be wrong).

[CK16]

Except Clan mechs go in the Clan box? This includes such nice tools as the Nova Cat, Arctic Wolf, Mk.II, ect. With how the game is set up for CW mech availability they will go clan. I do not see them changing mech availability either with a time jump, why would they want to change the system mid game? You have a dream that won't happen for better or worse. Either way it's not Game breaking or butchering the lore either.

Those going in just the IS box is silly and you are the only one here really who feels that if they choose 1 side for.them to go to that it should be IS.....Every time you start this argument everyone pretty much disagrees with you then you name call us who say no and you start saying we don't know a thing about the mech or factions lore, when in fact we do...

Edited by CK16, 06 April 2016 - 08:26 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 06 April 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

Except Clan mechs go in the Clan box? This includes such nice tools as the Nova Cat, Arctic Wolf, Mk.II, ect. With how the game is set up for CW mech availability they will go clan. I do not see them changing mech availability either with a time jump, why would they want to change the system mid game? You have a dream that won't happen for better or worse. Either way it's not Game breaking or butchering the lore either.

Those going in just the IS box is silly and you are the only one here really who feels that if they choose 1 side for.them to go to that it should be IS.....Every time you start this argument everyone pretty much disagrees with you then you name call us who say no and you start saying we don't know a thing about the mech or factions lore, when in fact we do...

Thing is... if we DO time jump, which we will have to shortly... the next era is 3059, and you have Clans aligned with the Inner Sphere fighting on their side of the war against the rest of the Clans. This means, since MWO gives every minor faction access to every toy in the major faction toy box, that the Inner Sphere gets Clan mechs. There is no way you can have 3059 without Wolf, Nova Cat, and Ghost Bear in the Sphere. You cannot have the Nova Cat, Arctic Wolf, and MkII fighting AGAINST the Inner Sphere according to lore, canon, and TRO.

You're arguing the current system of dividing mechs by faction won't change with a time jump. I'm telling you, and so are others, that they absolutely have to. You cannot move the timeline forward without dealing with mixtech

[CK16]

Except those IS aligned Clans still used Clan mechs and only if in a place where they had no other choice would use IS mechs....Nova Cats and Wolfs in Exile would still use Timberwolfs, Shadowcat's,Direwolfs ect. As thier main mechs right? They would get same mech selection as any other Clan....Or should they only use IS mechs while only getting the Nova Cat, Arctic wolf and Mk.II as thier only Clan tech mechs?

Edited by CK16, 06 April 2016 - 08:42 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

CK16, on 06 April 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

Except those IS aligned Clans still used Clan mechs and only if in a place where they had no other choice would use IS mechs....Nova Cats and Wolfs in Exile would still use Timberwolfs, Shadowcat's,Direwolfs ect. right? They would get same mech selection as any other Clan....Or should they only use IS mechs while only getting the Nova Cat, Arctic wolf and Mk.II as thier only Clan tech mechs?

Plus, the tonnage limit on Clan vs IS players is on a per player basis. Nothing stopping an IS aligned Clan from using a Clan drop deck with a Clan maximum drop tonnage limit - should it be different to the IS drop tonnage limits.

[FerrokenFibrous]

ScarecrowES, on 06 April 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Thing is... if we DO time jump, which we will have to shortly... the next era is 3059, and you have Clans aligned with the Inner Sphere fighting on their side of the war against the rest of the Clans. This means, since MWO gives every minor faction access to every toy in the major faction toy box, that the Inner Sphere gets Clan mechs. There is no way you can have 3059 without Wolf, Nova Cat, and Ghost Bear in the Sphere. You cannot have the Nova Cat, Arctic Wolf, and MkII fighting AGAINST the Inner Sphere according to lore, canon, and TRO.

You're arguing the current system of dividing mechs by faction won't change with a time jump. I'm telling you, and so are others, that they absolutely have to. You cannot move the timeline forward without dealing with mixtech

Thing is... Davion and Steiner not being allies, the fact that certain faction-exclusive 'Mechs (e.g. Mauler, Ebon Jag, etc.) are not-so-exclusive to their particular factions, as well as all the other deviations that MWO has from the main BT timeline/continuity render the whole "yay IS has Clan buddies fighting the other invading Clans" and "yay some Clan 'Mechs are IS-exclusive" things moot, and we will probably have 'Mechs like the Nova Cat and Arctic Wolf fighting against the IS on behalf of Crusader Cats and Crusader Wolves according to PGI's alternate timeline interpretation of the BT universe that is MWO's Community Warfare, regardless of how things actually went in canon.

Even with a time jump, the current system of mech selection for each faction is still unlikely to change, but who knows, maybe PGI will suddenly change their minds and haul back in the lore details that they threw out of the window. Until then, I really do not believe what you are trying to preach here.

[Odanan]

FerrokenFibrous, on 06 April 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

I would assume that Comstar had obtained ClanTech the same way the rest of the IS did: through salvaged/captured Clan 'Mechs. As for the Clans, well, they were probably getting desperate and/or running out of IIC and Omnimechs, so some of their second-line and cannon-fodder units ended up using IS 'Mechs (alternatively, it could be a sign that some warriors wanted to prove their worth by using 'Mechs that they regard as inferior).

I am not really completely sure if the Clans did use IS 'Mechs during that battle, but I think I read somewhere once that both sides were, indeed, using a mix of 'Mechs from both tech bases (though I am yet to verify that statement or find proper citation, so it might be wrong).

It was the first time Comstar was facing the Clans, they didn't have "salvage". Besides, it's not easy to put a salvaged Clan mech in use because you didn't have the knowhow or the spare parts.

Clans used their best mechs and units in Tuk. They were not desperate yet.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 06 April 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

It was the first time Comstar was facing the Clans, they didn't have "salvage". Besides, it's not easy to put a salvaged Clan mech in use because you didn't have the knowhow or the spare parts.

Clans used their best mechs and units in Tuk. They were not desperate yet.

yup...

Only reason the clans lost Tuk, is due to FASA going "Ah Crap! We made the Clans too strong, we need to have a way out of the IS!" In universe reasoning for it was, simply the bulk of the clans were too over confident, only Clan Wolf and Clan Ghost Bear earning victory, while Jade Falcon earned a draw.

[ScarecrowES]

FerrokenFibrous, on 06 April 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Thing is... Davion and Steiner not being allies, the fact that certain faction-exclusive 'Mechs (e.g. Mauler, Ebon Jag, etc.) are not-so-exclusive to their particular factions, as well as all the other deviations that MWO has from the main BT timeline/continuity render the whole "yay IS has Clan buddies fighting the other invading Clans" and "yay some Clan 'Mechs are IS-exclusive" things moot, and we will probably have 'Mechs like the Nova Cat and Arctic Wolf fighting against the IS on behalf of Crusader Cats and Crusader Wolves according to PGI's alternate timeline interpretation of the BT universe that is MWO's Community Warfare, regardless of how things actually went in canon.

Even with a time jump, the current system of mech selection for each faction is still unlikely to change, but who knows, maybe PGI will suddenly change their minds and haul back in the lore details that they threw out of the window. Until then, I really do not believe what you are trying to preach here.

You've missed a lot of this basic argument from other threads, and my hope was not to rehash it here. CK16 has been in on that debate, and yet plays it off in every new thread as if it's new.

The point you bring up, about mechs fighting on the wrong side of the war, is the one I've been making for awhile, and one that takes center stage when we're talking about mechs from the distant timeline like the Nova Cat or Mad Cat MkII.

Current faction and tech divisions are easy. PGI set the timeline at 3049, and divided the galaxy into two factions. This works because in 3049 you saw the introduction of the Clans, which were wholly aligned against the Inner Sphere as a group, and not just individual houses. They also used a completely different tech base, different build and play rules. MWO simplifies faction availability lists and rules by simply saying, whatever major faction (IS or Clan) your minor faction belongs to, you put all your toys in their toy box, and anyone else who also belongs to the same major faction can use any toy in that toy box.

Right now - well from 3049 to 3058 - this draws a very clean line between both minor factions and tech base. Clans are "Clans", and only "Clans" have clan-tech as native. If PGI wants to introduce a mech, they can drop it cleanly to a major faction by virtue of its tech as long as the game stays on this side of 3058. But starting in 3059, some Clans are not "Clans" as defined by MWO... meaning aligned against the Inner Sphere and using clan-tech. Wolf, Nova Cat, and Ghost Bear are technically no longer "Clans" as defined in MWO. They don't fight against the Inner Sphere anymore. They aren't trying to capture Terra. In fact, all 3 of those factions are now PROTECTING Terra from the "Clans." Two of those factions, Wolf-in-Exile and Nova Cat, become major technological players in the Inner Sphere. They're responsible for a lot of the mechs that come out at the end of and following the Clan Invasion era.

This is a problem for MWO. The neat faction/tech divisions start falling apart. And getting this wrong can lead to all kinds of issues, not the least of which would be seeing mech and tech balancing issues for factions. Beyond that, you could end up with a game state that sees Nova Cat mechs marching to war against the Inner Sphere in Smoke Jaguar camo (a mech that's famous for basically destroying that Clan), or the Arctic Wolf in Jade Falcon camo (a mech that's famous for ejecting Jade Falcon from the Inner Sphere and halting the Clan conquest of Terra). Or sees Arctic Wolves and Arctic Foxes dropping on different sides of the conflict (two mechs that were developed side-by-side by a newly organized Arc-Royal Defense Cordon made up of the Kell Hounds and Wolf-in-Exile)... or later in the timeline, sees the Mad Cat MkII not standing in Steiner/Davion colors on either side of the battlefield (the IS houses cobbling these things up en masse to try to give each some edge during the Civil War).

The reality is, we all know (or at least the lore-informed amongst us) that seeing those things would be awful. There really would be no point in releasing those mechs into a game state that would allow such blatant misrepresentation.

How PGI will navigate this potential cluster... mess... I have no idea. Russ especially seems to care about the lore. I don't think they'd discount it entirely. I think they'll still take the toy box approach they have now as we move into the future, same as they do now, but noone really knows how they'll deal with the toy box having both Clan and IS mechs. My personal opinion, as always, would be to steer clear of mechs that cause problems until the answers are finalized.

3059 starts probably the most exciting era for Battletech play, and I'd like PGI to get it right... or at least close enough.