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Next Clan Mechs. (Post 4/1/16)


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#501 Scout Derek

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:31 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Moving a timeline, without updating the available tech, is a halfass expedient, that will cause more complaints and issues than it solves. Sure, IF it includes the mkII, it'll hopefully mollify Imperius, (unless it turns out to be less amazing than hoped), but that alone ain't the point of a timeshift.


If they do that.....
Posted Image

but hopefully they wont as mech packs should sate their thrist for resources.

Timberwolf MK II should be okay, not as good as THE timberwolf but pretty fearsome, maybe a bit better than the Warhawk in terms of weaponry but better in agility.

#502 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:34 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 08 April 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

If they do that.....
Posted Image

but hopefully they wont as mech packs should sate their thrist for resources.

Timberwolf MK II should be okay, not as good as THE timberwolf but pretty fearsome, maybe a bit better than the Warhawk in terms of weaponry but better in agility.

It's a big if, dependant on WHEN they shift too, and how loose they are willing to place with production dates.

If they jump to Bulldog, like ScarecrowES wants, then the mkII is technically still out of timeline, but close enough I know I wouldn't complain about it being added, TBH. If they scoot just a little more to the beginning of the Civil War, in 63, then it's a shoo in, as the prime was introduced in 3061/62. And it's too well liked to ignore.

But neither leaps makes a dang bit of sense if they don't have the tech ready to open the floodgates.

#503 1453 R

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:34 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:


I would be thrilled if after the second heavy they went with some assault omnis, for instance an ECM Kingfisher and CJF staple assault, the Turkina.


Heh...well, the problem is that the Kingfisher, as intrigue as some find it (I personally think it's an interesting 'Mech, if not a standout), suffers the same "This has less podspace than the frickin' Timber Wolf!!" thing everyone throws at non-Whale Clan Omnis, and as has been pointed out, ECM is not the cure-all panacea it once was. The Kingfisher does have enough hardpoints scattered about, and enough tonnage (if only just, by some folks' standards) to do Gausslasers or cLPL-heavy beamvomit, but it's got bupkiss for missiles, doesn't jump, and its logistical advantages don't hold in MWO.

As for the Turkina...the thing is incredibly...

Posted Image

hardpoint-wise, until you get to the B. And even then, the B is nothing but 8E, which the Dire Whale can do with one arm shot off. The C is a little better, with 3B/5E/1M, but that's still not necessarily stellar for a Whale-class assault. Certainly useable, but not stellar. You could maybe force the X variant minus the talons (which'd be a shame, really), but 2M/6E is still not awesome for a Whale-speed assault 'Mech. The Prime and Alpha fits are just flat-out worthless. 2B/2M on the Alpha is just outright lollerskates for a 95-ton machine.

They'd need to fudge a lot of things to make the Turkina even halfway competitive with the Whale. The B, C, and theoretically X fits would be usable, but you wouldn't have half the flexibility of the ol' War Blimp. You'd need to give it a lot of extra torso maneuverability over the Whale for it to make much sense. You could certainly do that, but I'm not sure the Turk would be the sort of revolutionary game-changer assault (some) Clan players seem to be looking for.

#504 pbiggz

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:36 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 08 April 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

If they do that.....
Posted Image

but hopefully they wont as mech packs should sate their thrist for resources.

Madcat MK II should be okay. Different from the timberwolf but pretty fearsome, much better than the Warhawk in terms of weaponry and better in agility.


FTFY

#505 CK16

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:36 PM

Also a time jump in Faction Warfare would not be that difficult, IF they have to eliminate Smoke Jag just replace them with Nova Cat, easy territory replacement, they will act JUST as Smoke Jag does now meaning attacking Ghost Bear or IS houses by them, they wont make these elaborate faction alliances you think they have to or dream they will cause they would ahve done so already in game.... at this point and time in the game RIGHT NOW Davion and Steiner are not suppose to be separate factions but one alliance that is not represented. Place faction(s) in, and let players decide the alliances just as it is now. with CW3 factions can not help other factions either so this eliminates Marik dropping with Kurita (I think they added this maybe not sure) and thus Nova Cat and Kurita will not drop together.

Nova Cat would still function like current clans in game for mechanics reasons, meaning Mech roster the same as currently, no IS designed mechs (meaning no Dragons, Maulers, Atlas)...New Clan mechs such as the Mk.II and Nova Cat added to Clan Nova Cat roster and the other Clans by sharing same toy box, as well Nova Cat is on almost every Clans Master Unit List by the way as well.....It is not hard to do a time jump to mid 3060's and keep factions divided easy by tech and keep them the same as now IS mechs and Clan mechs, mixed tech was not the norm it was rare.....

If you have an issue with a MK.II or Nova Cat in Clan Nova Cat colors attacking Kurita that is the players/units of the factions choice and to bad, just as Steiner attacking Davion it doesn't make sense in 3053...The CW map is alternative because it is driven by players not a scripted campaign.

#506 C E Dwyer

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:36 PM

It's well known I'm a 3025 fan and have no great love for the 3050 period, but what really is the point in a time jump if there isn't going to be any new tech/weapons, until you have exhausted all earlier mechs

lol yes it's all about the mechs!

#507 pbiggz

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:39 PM

View Post1453 R, on 08 April 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

Heh...well, the problem is that the Kingfisher, as intrigue as some find it (I personally think it's an interesting 'Mech, if not a standout), suffers the same "This has less podspace than the frickin' Timber Wolf!!" thing everyone throws at non-Whale Clan Omnis, and as has been pointed out, ECM is not the cure-all panacea it once was. The Kingfisher does have enough hardpoints scattered about, and enough tonnage (if only just, by some folks' standards) to do Gausslasers or cLPL-heavy beamvomit, but it's got bupkiss for missiles, doesn't jump, and its logistical advantages don't hold in MWO.

As for the Turkina...the thing is incredibly...

Posted Image

hardpoint-wise, until you get to the B. And even then, the B is nothing but 8E, which the Dire Whale can do with one arm shot off. The C is a little better, with 3B/5E/1M, but that's still not necessarily stellar for a Whale-class assault. Certainly useable, but not stellar. You could maybe force the X variant minus the talons (which'd be a shame, really), but 2M/6E is still not awesome for a Whale-speed assault 'Mech. The Prime and Alpha fits are just flat-out worthless. 2B/2M on the Alpha is just outright lollerskates for a 95-ton machine.

They'd need to fudge a lot of things to make the Turkina even halfway competitive with the Whale. The B, C, and theoretically X fits would be usable, but you wouldn't have half the flexibility of the ol' War Blimp. You'd need to give it a lot of extra torso maneuverability over the Whale for it to make much sense. You could certainly do that, but I'm not sure the Turk would be the sort of revolutionary game-changer assault (some) Clan players seem to be looking for.


The turky is an example of a mech that literally requires a fudged stock loadout, because... why?

Its a direwolf - 5 tons + fixed hoverjets - some hardpoints. What good could that possibly do? What harm could giving it a bigger engine so it goes 60 possibly do to the game? None thats what.

View PostCathy, on 08 April 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

It's well known I'm a 3025 fan and have no great love for the 3050 period, but what really is the point in a time jump if there isn't going to be any new tech/weapons, until you have exhausted all earlier mechs

lol yes it's all about the mechs!


We aren't going to get every mech in the TRO. Its not happening.

#508 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:41 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 08 April 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:


FTFY

based on what dedicated info?

Hoverjets aren't game changers in Assaults (my VTR really wishes they were) and you get slightly higher arms. Probably the biggest bonus is not getting your LT locked into DHS.

And that's about it. It certainly should be better than the Warchicken over all, but not seeing enough to claim "MUCH". Chicken is already a decent performer with the right builds, just limited. MkII should be less so, but I don't see it being the coming of a New Meta.

#509 Scout Derek

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:41 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 08 April 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:


FTFY


take in the terms of pod space, hitboxes estimation and engine size, as well as equipment and the Warhawk will be just as good in firepower considering if the TBR MKII never gets quirks. As for agility marginally better because, again, engine size, quirks, and jump jets.


View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

It's a big if, dependant on WHEN they shift too, and how loose they are willing to place with production dates.

If they jump to Bulldog, like ScarecrowES wants, then the mkII is technically still out of timeline, but close enough I know I wouldn't complain about it being added, TBH. If they scoot just a little more to the beginning of the Civil War, in 63, then it's a shoo in, as the prime was introduced in 3061/62. And it's too well liked to ignore.

But neither leaps makes a dang bit of sense if they don't have the tech ready to open the floodgates.

hopefully the IF is soon, and hopefully new tech to be implemented as well, might make the playerbase bigger and return some back to us, as new content is a MUST for MWO, all we have going for now is mechs, maps, and other functions. If jumped to bulldog expect it to do come, I believe they started producing them around the end/middle of the operation(?). If civil war then it WILL be a definite that I can be sure of.

#510 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:41 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 08 April 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

What harm could giving it a bigger engine so it goes 60 possibly do to the game? None thats what.

Well it means all the less fortunate Omnis will be asking for this, not that I'm against this since I would prefer we just ditch the omnimech construction rules since it causes certain mechs to require serious quirks to make even relevant.

#511 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:42 PM

View PostCK16, on 08 April 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

Also a time jump in Faction Warfare would not be that difficult, IF they have to eliminate Smoke Jag just replace them with Nova Cat, easy territory replacement, they will act JUST as Smoke Jag does now meaning attacking Ghost Bear or IS houses by them, they wont make these elaborate faction alliances you think they have to or dream they will cause they would ahve done so already in game.... at this point and time in the game RIGHT NOW Davion and Steiner are not suppose to be separate factions but one alliance that is not represented. Place faction(s) in, and let players decide the alliances just as it is now. with CW3 factions can not help other factions either so this eliminates Marik dropping with Kurita (I think they added this maybe not sure) and thus Nova Cat and Kurita will not drop together.

Nova Cat would still function like current clans in game for mechanics reasons, meaning Mech roster the same as currently, no IS designed mechs (meaning no Dragons, Maulers, Atlas)...New Clan mechs such as the Mk.II and Nova Cat added to Clan Nova Cat roster and the other Clans by sharing same toy box, as well Nova Cat is on almost every Clans Master Unit List by the way as well.....It is not hard to do a time jump to mid 3060's and keep factions divided easy by tech and keep them the same as now IS mechs and Clan mechs, mixed tech was not the norm it was rare.....

If you have an issue with a MK.II or Nova Cat in Clan Nova Cat colors attacking Kurita that is the players/units of the factions choice and to bad, just as Steiner attacking Davion it doesn't make sense in 3053...The CW map is alternative because it is driven by players not a scripted campaign.

Yup.

Only time issues with the skip is realyl based in the need for new tech. The rest is the type of thing a couple planning meeting and a typical monthly patch could handle.

#512 ScarecrowES

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:45 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Moving a timeline, without updating the available tech, is a halfass expedient, that will cause more complaints and issues than it solves. Sure, IF it includes the mkII, it'll hopefully mollify Imperius, (unless it turns out to be less amazing than hoped), but that alone ain't the point of a timeshift.

And anything that includes even adding the new introduced tech, even to your precious 3059 (which is not a guaranteed waypoint, no matter how much you reiterate it). will require months of meeting, coding in house testing and balance, etc. Just liek it did for the Clan INvasion. Maybe not as intensive since they don't have to cosmetically create a whole new look/feel, but it's not just fudging lines on a map.


If it were me... the way I'd introduce new tech on either side would be one new piece at a time, introduced by including one mech at a time that uses the new tech. So, say you want to introduce MRMs to the game. Find a new mech you like that features MRMs, and introduce that mech and the weapon to go with it. This gives a few advantages. First, it makes new tech just as exciting to see dropped as new mechs. "OMG, Heavy Large Lasers drop in June!" Second, it allows you to introduce a single balancing variable at a time, and see how it plays out against the rest of what's already available.

Keeping balance while introducing one piece of tech at a time would be infinitely easier than adding a whole lot of tech into the game at once. It's much easier to get the balancing right if you're only changing one thing at a time. It would also be a lot easier on the art and design departments, easier in testing, and so on.

But you have to move the timeline forward first and foremost. Otherwise the it's a moot point.

Now, I say 3059 for a couple of reasons. First, it's past the introduction dates for most new tech. It makes nearly all mechs available from a tech perspective. Second, it's still within the Invasion era, which is the only era during which you can cleanly divide the galaxy into two opposed sides. That doesn't work in any other era. Third is, of course, because no real IS vs Clan combat happens between 3053 and 3059. And fourth, probably best of all, 3059 is the start of Operation Bulldog, which is the definitive and ultimately concluding campaign set of the war. It is by far the best era to be set at in terms of what works for CW. Far better than 3050.

With CW set in 3050, you have one single end-game scenario... either the Clans get to Terra, or they don't. With CW set in 3059, you can have 3 end-game scenarios. Clans get to Terra, IS gets to Strana Mechty, or a stalemate forcing a Great Refusal. So instead of sitting in a stalemate scenario for months on end, as is the case with CW now, you could break that stalemate and provide a definitive end to each CW session with a Great Refusal style "tournament" to decide the overall winner. This let's us have what other games have in modes similar to CW... multiple sessions a year with clear endings. Having that is both more satisfying, but inevitably helps with balance by providing a constant reset to your system in which to test changes.

3059 is just much better for CW. In fact, it's really the only timeline that truly works for how that mode is set up.

Also, if it makes you feel any better, since the Lyrans seceded from the Federated Commonwealth in 3057, it now makes more sense for Steiner and Davion to fight.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 08 April 2016 - 01:51 PM.


#513 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:46 PM

View Post1453 R, on 08 April 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:


As for the Turkina...the thing is incredibly...

Posted Image

hardpoint-wise, until you get to the B. And even then, the B is nothing but 8E, which the Dire Whale can do with one arm shot off. The C is a little better, with 3B/5E/1M, but that's still not necessarily stellar for a Whale-class assault. Certainly useable, but not stellar. You could maybe force the X variant minus the talons (which'd be a shame, really), but 2M/6E is still not awesome for a Whale-speed assault 'Mech. The Prime and Alpha fits are just flat-out worthless. 2B/2M on the Alpha is just outright lollerskates for a 95-ton machine.

They'd need to fudge a lot of things to make the Turkina even halfway competitive with the Whale. The B, C, and theoretically X fits would be usable, but you wouldn't have half the flexibility of the ol' War Blimp. You'd need to give it a lot of extra torso maneuverability over the Whale for it to make much sense. You could certainly do that, but I'm not sure the Turk would be the sort of revolutionary game-changer assault (some) Clan players seem to be looking for.



That was my initial thought as well (why I was on Team Kingfisher, and I still am). I do like that it is a dedicated CJF Assault which is currently absent from the lineup, and they could give it better agility through twist range and a little bit of agility quirks so that it isn't so helpless against lights, and that would make it have some appeal over the Dire in some situations.

#514 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:46 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 08 April 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

Well it means all the less fortunate Omnis will be asking for this, not that I'm against this since I would prefer we just ditch the omnimech construction rules since it causes certain mechs to require serious quirks to make even relevant.

eh, realyl don't want to see androgynous build rules across the board, I find it kind of boring. And what doe sIS get to comp for the ability to stack Omnipods to more favorable layouts for any Meta? Or the inherent advantage of the C-XL, which despite some peoples continued protests IS still the biggest game changer between tech bases? Just Give IS XLs same survivability and negate future tech items like LFE?

I'm for unlocking endo/ferro, but not the CXL, as that's one of the few true balancing tools. And TBH, even though my Warhawk would love it, I don't realyl want to unlock core chassis stuff like the DHS, either.

Don't really want to go down the road further to MW4/Mechassaultville.

#515 Scout Derek

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:47 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

Yup.

Only time issues with the skip is realyl based in the need for new tech. The rest is the type of thing a couple planning meeting and a typical monthly patch could handle.

the balancing.... that will be fun lol. Just like when clan weapons were new haha.

#516 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:48 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 08 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:


If it were me... the way I'd introduce new tech on either side would be one new piece at a time, introduced by including one mech at a time that uses the new tech. So, say you want to introduce MRMs to the game. Find a new mech you like that features MRMs, and introduce that mech and the weapon to go with it. This gives a few advantages. First, it makes new tech just as exciting to see dropped as new mechs. "OMG, Heavy Large Lasers drop in June!" Second, it allows you to introduce a single balancing variable at a time, and see how it plays out against the rest of what's already available.

Keeping balance while introducing one piece of tech at a time would be infinitely easier than adding a whole lot of tech into the game at once. It's much easier to get the balancing right if you're only changing one thing at a time. It would also be a lot easier on the art and design departments, easier in testing, and so on.

But you have to move the timeline forward first and foremost. Otherwise the it's a moot point.

Now, I say 3059 for a couple of reasons. First, it's past the introduction dates for most new tech. It makes nearly all mechs available from a tech perspective. Second, it's still within the Invasion era, which is the only era during which you can cleanly divide the galaxy into two opposed sides. That doesn't work in any other era. Third is, of course, because no real IS vs Clan combat happens between 3053 and 3059. And fourth, probably best of all, 3059 is the start of Operation Bulldog, which is the definitive and ultimately concluding campaign set of the war. It is by far the best era to be set at in terms of what works for CW. Far better than 3050.

With CW set in 3050, you have one single end-game scenario... either the Clans get to Terra, or they don't. With CW set in 3059, you can have 3 end-game scenarios. Clans get to Terra, IS gets to Strana Mechty, or a stalemate forcing a Great Refusal. So instead of sitting in a stalemate scenario for months on end, as is the case with CW now, you could break that stalemate and provide a definitive end to each CW session with a Great Refusal style "tournament" to decide the overall winner. This let's us have what other games have in modes similar to CW... multiple sessions a year with clear endings. Having that is both more satisfying, but inevitably helps with balance by providing a constant reset to your system in which to test changes.

3059 is just much better for CW. In fact, it's really the only timeline that truly works for how that mode is set up.

It's realyl not easier to balance. If you have a pool of items you can test them against each other to make sure they fit, whereas one at a time, you can test them against existing, but not against repercussions of future weapons.

And you already see the disgruntlement that happens over which mech gets released next. Good god I would not want to be PGI and listening to allt eh QQ because "how dare you released MRMs when I wanted HAGs!!!!!!".

Just...no.

#517 Imperius

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:49 PM

Mad Cat MK II

Prime (Tech in timeline)
  • 2x Gauss Rifles
  • 2x LRM-10s
  • 4x ER Medium Lasers
Mad Cat Mk. II Variant 2

This version of the Mad Cat Mk. II keeps a single Gauss Rifle, found in the right arm, and two ER Medium Lasers of the standard configuration. The torso LRM systems have been replaced by a quartet of Streak SRM-4s. The left arm houses a massive LB 20-X autocannon. Armor and movement profile remain the same, but to make room for the weapons this variant had to drop one heat sink, leaving it with thirteen. BV(2.0)=2,822[14]

Mad Cat Mk. II 4

This variant of the Mad Cat carries two ER Large Lasers in each arm and a pair of LRM-15 launchers. A Light Active Probe identifies hidden units. It retains the 120 meter jump radius of the base model. BV (2.0) = 2,962[16]
Here are 3 solid variants that use current tech. The only small change would be to add the Light Active Probe copy Clan Active Probe (mod XML) or just use Clan Active probe and shave off some armor in the legs or something.

PGI has fudged mechs before.

Tech does not have to be added to the game to add the Mad Cat MK II so it is no different than the adding the Kodiak 3

Edited by Imperius, 08 April 2016 - 01:51 PM.


#518 Scout Derek

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:50 PM

View PostImperius, on 08 April 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

PGI has fudged mechs before.

Tech does not have to be added to the game to add the Mad Cat MK II so it is no different than the adding the Kodiak 3

That's not what we meant by that.

We meant that new tech should be implemented because it makes more sense, and makes the game more interesting and even more fun to play.

#519 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:53 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

And what doe sIS get to comp for the ability to stack Omnipods to more favorable layouts for any Meta?

But that is highly dependent on the mech and omnipod possibilities though, because none of the Clans got hardpoint inflation some of them have to be able to switch pods just to have relevant firepower, then you have mechs that have more hardpoints than they know what to do with (Nova and SCrow with 12+ hardpoints). Though some of the older mechs are still suffering from the hardpoint count creep sadly (poor Trollmando).

I did like the flavor to a degree, but considering how much it hampers certain designs, it really needs to be rethought.

I also take the offense that you even put MW4 next to Mechassault like that, because they were still very different :P. Then again I also prefer the MW4 mechlab overall so meh.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 April 2016 - 01:55 PM.


#520 Imperius

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:54 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 08 April 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

That's not what we meant by that.

We meant that new tech should be implemented because it makes more sense, and makes the game more interesting and even more fun to play.

I'm for new tech but that isn't a legitimate reason to exclude the MK II like a few keep trying to do.





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