1049 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

The Dire isn't useless without structure quirks though...

Its damned near close, walking center torso and all, but not quite as wide as an atlas.

Remember how useful atlases were pre structure?

[Imperius]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

The Dire isn't useless without structure quirks though...

The Dire isn't a walking hitbox wall, but I will say it is a CT funnel now one can barely turn...

I tweeted Russ (since pBiggZ inspired me) that since it seems I am not getting the Mad Cat MK II it may be better to just un junk my current mech by allowing the omnimechs to change their engine size.

[Gas Guzzler]

pbiggz, on 08 April 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Its damned near close, walking center torso and all, but not quite as wide as an atlas.

Remember how useful atlases were pre structure?

Well the Atlas thing was because Atlases essentially have to be close to you to hurt you, and up close they would dissolve. The Dire could sit far away from you and do ~80 damage from 600 meters.

I guess you could say brawling won't work out great on the Kodiak without structure quirks..

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

The Dire isn't useless without structure quirks though...

Not quite useless...only 50 tons of guns is the single redeeming quality...

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

I guess you could say brawling won't work out great on the Kodiak without structure quirks..

That is the niche for it though...a fast 100 ton assault mech with loads of brawling weapon options.

Without brawling, the KDK will be a faster DW. Which means the DW does what now? Be a slower KDK?

I see that working out poorly for one or both mechs...

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Not quite useless...only 50 tons of guns is the single redeeming quality...



That is the niche for it though...a fast 100 ton assault mech with loads of brawling weapon options.

Without brawling, the KDK will be a faster DW. Which means the DW does what now? Be a slower KDK?

I see that working out poorly for one or both mechs...

I think we are going to have to wait until release to see how things pan out.

[Imperius]

Well I played the Boar's head back in the day, it wasn't very effective.

[Gas Guzzler]

Imperius, on 08 April 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

Well I played the Boar's head back in the day, it wasn't very effective.

Low hardpoints, can't dual gauss, of course it wasn't effective.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

I think we are going to have to wait until release to see how things pan out.

Certainly...

However, given the simplest extrapolations we have 3 possible outcomes:

1.) KDK becomes a faster DW

2.) KDK becomes effective brawler, DW is ranged support

3.) KDK has terribad hit boxes and becomes a heavier EXE.

1 outcome obsoletes the DW

1 outcome leaves a niche for the DW

1 outcome leaves both mechs in a bad place relatively.

Hit boxes can be fixed...however...I assert that there is virtually no outcome where the DW is not outright worse than the KDK in 90% of things. The only possible scenario the DW has left is essentially 2 UAC10 + 3 UAC5 that the KDK cannot by pure hard point limitation...even then, the KDK can do 2 UAC10 + 2 UAC5 or 4 UAC10 and be significantly more mobile with high torso mounts.

The question is...would driving the short bus that is the DW compared to the KDK ever be worth it in that scenario when the KDK will easily be able to trot around a good 15+ klicks faster?

[Bishop Steiner]

Imperius, on 08 April 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

Kodiak needs atlas structure quirks to live, if it comes without, well I would hate to be the mod on that day.

Really? It's arms will block a crapton of incoming fire. It might need some, but no reason it should need Atlas level ounles PGI really pooches the hitboxes. Which is a possibility.

[Scout Derek]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:19 PM, said:

Certainly...

However, given the simplest extrapolations we have 3 possible outcomes:

1.) KDK becomes a faster DW

2.) KDK becomes effective brawler, DW is ranged support

3.) KDK has terribad hit boxes and becomes a heavier EXE.

1 outcome obsoletes the DW

1 outcome leaves a niche for the DW

1 outcome leaves both mechs in a bad place relatively.

Hit boxes can be fixed...however...I assert that there is virtually no outcome where the DW is not outright worse than the KDK in 90% of things. The only possible scenario the DW has left is essentially 2 UAC10 + 3 UAC5 that the KDK cannot by pure hard point limitation...even then, the KDK can do 2 UAC10 + 2 UAC5 or 4 UAC10 and be significantly more mobile with high torso mounts.

The question is...would driving the short bus that is the DW compared to the KDK ever be worth it in that scenario when the KDK will easily be able to trot around a good 15+ klicks faster?

Well consider the DWF has Ballistic Hardpoints spread across 4 different limbs for use, meaning you can pack larger weapons and much more. If you wanted multiple large UACs on the Kodiak, you'd have to use the ST only, meaning that you lose any room to use in ST.

Oh, and remember if a Kodiak is using a 400, to the DWFs 300, that Torso Twist rate, pitch and yaw, will be significantly faster.

[1453 R]

Boar's Head didn't/doesn't have a cXL, M.A.S.C., and four missile hardpoints.

I would be very surprised if the Kodiak released with any quirks at all. It may end up needing them, but on release I imagine the thing will be barebones (or is that bearbones?), simply because most of them are massively heavily armed and it can be much faster than most Atlases without a huge hit to battlefield durability.

As for un-forking the Whale's mobility...what makes you think the Kodiak won't have that same ridiculous 60-degree twist capacity? They hammered the sExecutioner with a 70-degree twist, and that thing doesn't have half the firepower capacity of the Kodiak. Starting way back with the Fattlemaster, Piranha has been steadily shrinking the twist arcs of fatbros they release. I'd be shocked of the Kodiak managed to release with standard 90-degree twist arcs, and if you don't think that'll impact its brawling (or its everything else)...well, I don't know what to say.

[Gyrok]

Scout Derek, on 08 April 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Well consider the DWF has Ballistic Hardpoints spread across 4 different limbs for use, meaning you can pack larger weapons and much more. If you wanted multiple large UACs on the Kodiak, you'd have to use the ST only, meaning that you lose any room to use in ST.

Oh, and remember if a Kodiak is using a 400, to the DWFs 300, that Torso Twist rate, pitch and yaw, will be significantly faster.

The 4B variant of the KDK will basically become a faster clan Mauler...

[Scout Derek]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

Really? It's arms will block a crapton of incoming fire. It might need some, but no reason it should need Atlas level ounles PGI really pooches the hitboxes. Which is a possibility.

I don't think it'll need any, if it does, should be light quirking, as it's agility, like the Orion IIC, is going to be it's best thing, aside from Firepower.

Plus it's ST hardpoints should be higher, meaning that the Kodiak should perform better on hill fights if it wants to use ST weapons.

I mean, already going 70 KPH with the firepower of about a little or more of a Warhawk and the armor of a Dire is going to be scary, especially when it can actually twist to spread damage unlike the Dire, oh and then there's the Spirit Bear with MASC. That's going to be a mean SOB too.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 08 April 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Boar's Head didn't/doesn't have a cXL, M.A.S.C., and four missile hardpoints.

I would be very surprised if the Kodiak released with any quirks at all. It may end up needing them, but on release I imagine the thing will be barebones (or is that bearbones?), simply because most of them are massively heavily armed and it can be much faster than most Atlases without a huge hit to battlefield durability.

As for un-forking the Whale's mobility...what makes you think the Kodiak won't have that same ridiculous 60-degree twist capacity? They hammered the sExecutioner with a 70-degree twist, and that thing doesn't have half the firepower capacity of the Kodiak. Starting way back with the Fattlemaster, Piranha has been steadily shrinking the twist arcs of fatbros they release. I'd be shocked of the Kodiak managed to release with standard 90-degree twist arcs, and if you don't think that'll impact its brawling (or its everything else)...well, I don't know what to say.

That is truly a shame...the DW really needs the twist, and the EXE does too.

The KDK could easily be a Clan Mauler, and Clan Atlas, but without having closer to the yaw the Fatlas gets, it will be a DoA brawler...

[Scout Derek]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

The 4B variant of the KDK will basically become a faster clan Mauler...

Definitely, considering saved weight via clan tech. So XL 400, UAC 5s, or 10s, or even both, plus backup weapons.

That's going to be fun chasing down panicking Mediums and Heavies who run in fear from a 70KPH 100 tonner.

[Gyrok]

Scout Derek, on 08 April 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

I don't think it'll need any, if it does, should be light quirking, as it's agility, like the Orion IIC, is going to be it's best thing, aside from Firepower.

Plus it's ST hardpoints should be higher, meaning that the Kodiak should perform better on hill fights if it wants to use ST weapons.

I mean, already going 70 KPH with the firepower of about a little or more of a Warhawk and the armor of a Dire is going to be scary, especially when it can actually twist to spread damage unlike the Dire, oh and then there's the Spirit Bear with MASC. That's going to be a mean SOB too.

Assuming it can twist like a Fatlas...

[Scout Derek]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

That is truly a shame...the DW really needs the twist, and the EXE does too.

I thought Execute already had some good torso twist quirks? DWF though needs a bit, just a tiny bit, like 5% nowadays.

[Gyrok]

Scout Derek, on 08 April 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

I thought Execute already had some good torso twist quirks? DWF though needs a bit, just a tiny bit, like 5% nowadays.

10% to both sides would not even give it 90 deg firing arc.

[Gas Guzzler]

The EXE got a quirk for twist range, which makes it okay. I'm concerned the Kodiak will get hit with the bad torso twist arc. The one that really needs it is the Spirit Bear because SRMs.

[Scout Derek]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

Assuming it can twist like a Fatlas...

assuming a 400 unquirked matches a quirked 360 engine, I'd say yes.