1049 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

Really? It's arms will block a crapton of incoming fire. It might need some, but no reason it should need Atlas level ounles PGI really pooches the hitboxes. Which is a possibility.

Kodiak mounts no small amount of firepower in its arms, thus they are not quite as expendable as atlas arms. its also roughly the same size as the atlas, and, even with those big shield arms, pre structure quirked atlas was a in a sorry state.

[Gas Guzzler]

Scout Derek, on 08 April 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

assuming a 400 unquirked matches a quirked 360 engine, I'd say yes.

If the Spirit Bear has a 70 degree torso twist arc it can't mess with an AS7-S. It already loses on firepower because Clan SRMs are inferior to IS SRMs and IS has the AC20 while the SB will have to make do to with an LB20 or UAC-20 (less PPFLD). And if it doesn't have structure quirks or the same torso twist arc I think an AS7-S will still out brawl it, regardless of its extra mobility.

Of course, this will be tested extensively by multiple parties on May 17th so we will see. Those are just my theories.

[1453 R]

People seem to forget that the Whale still has fifty-one-point-five tons of pod space and can hit twenty hardpoints if it wants to. No, it can't use twenty hardpoints - but you can put whatever gun you like on whatever component you like on a Whale.

Yeah, the Kodiak will be able to carry a tremendous amount of firepower. The Whale still carries more. The Whale will always still carry more. There's a reason they gave the Whale such limited torso mobility, and that reason still holds valid. The same reasoning will likely hold valid when the Kodiak releases with 60-degree arcs and virtually no elevation/depression. Especially with the majority of most variants' weaponry in their arms; Piranha will almost certainly see that as a way to stagger weapons fire and further reduce alphas, which the next best thing to literally everyone around here keeps demanding they do.

Don't expect the Whale to suddenly get 120-degree arcs because Whale drivers are sick of getting outmaneuvered, and do expect the Kodiak to be about as torso-mobile as the Whale is. If you want to show up to a fight with 45+ tons of firepower, you're going to have to accept that all that crazay shooting power comes with limitations.

After all, we wouldn't want to obsolete the sExecutioner or the Warhawk, or the Highlander IIC, would we?

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 08 April 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

After all, we wouldn't want to obsolete the sExecutioner or the Warhawk, or the Highlander IIC, would we?

The HGN-IIC is already pretty obsolete. I mean yeah its usable in the public queue, but not really a trend setter.

I suppose you are right though, there has to be a draw back.


I'm glad we are having this discussion so I am not completely shell shocked when it drops with **** torso twist range.

That Kingfisher though, I bet it will drop with some nice torso twist range.

That being said, the Mad Cat Mk.II is probably going to have **** torso twist range too!!!

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 08 April 2016 - 04:41 PM.

[Gyrok]

Scout Derek, on 08 April 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

assuming a 400 unquirked matches a quirked 360 engine, I'd say yes.

I meant twist arc, or yaw if you prefer.

I am sure it will twist quickly, my concern is that it has the DW and EXE's anemic yaw.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:42 PM, said:

I meant twist arc, or yaw if you prefer.

I am sure it will twist quickly, my concern is that it has the DW and EXE's anemic yaw.

Its going to.


I remember this now, when it was announced I was super excited then remembered what happened when I hopped in the Executioner and the Mauler, and I was like, yeah, there is no ******* way they release this thing with better than 70deg torso twist arc.

Same with the Mad Cat Mk. II.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 08 April 2016 - 04:45 PM.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 08 April 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

People seem to forget that the Whale still has fifty-one-point-five tons of pod space and can hit twenty hardpoints if it wants to. No, it can't use twenty hardpoints - but you can put whatever gun you like on whatever component you like on a Whale.

Yeah, the Kodiak will be able to carry a tremendous amount of firepower. The Whale still carries more. The Whale will always still carry more. There's a reason they gave the Whale such limited torso mobility, and that reason still holds valid. The same reasoning will likely hold valid when the Kodiak releases with 60-degree arcs and virtually no elevation/depression. Especially with the majority of most variants' weaponry in their arms; Piranha will almost certainly see that as a way to stagger weapons fire and further reduce alphas, which the next best thing to literally everyone around here keeps demanding they do.

Don't expect the Whale to suddenly get 120-degree arcs because Whale drivers are sick of getting outmaneuvered, and do expect the Kodiak to be about as torso-mobile as the Whale is. If you want to show up to a fight with 45+ tons of firepower, you're going to have to accept that all that crazay shooting power comes with limitations.

After all, we wouldn't want to obsolete the sExecutioner or the Warhawk, or the Highlander IIC, would we?

Not enough difference to matter...

That is also not even considering that Clan FF ends up giving another ~1-1.5 tons.

So, you are talking about being at ~47 tons at 70 kph, versus 51.5 tons at 52 kph.

Additionally...if the KDK wants to carry more weight, you can drop all the way to the XL300 and bring ES/FF meaning the KDK can mount demonstrably more firepower if warranted, an extra 15 tons in fact..-.

There is no world where the DW is not outright worse than the KDK with the exception of a few builds that the KDK can do "good enough".

Edited by Gyrok, 08 April 2016 - 04:48 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

If the Spirit Bear has a 70 degree torso twist arc it can't mess with an AS7-S. It already loses on firepower because Clan SRMs are inferior to IS SRMs and IS has the AC20 while the SB will have to make do to with an LB20 or UAC-20 (less PPFLD). And if it doesn't have structure quirks or the same torso twist arc I think an AS7-S will still out brawl it, regardless of its extra mobility.

Of course, this will be tested extensively by multiple parties on May 17th so we will see. Those are just my theories.

Yep, all of this right now is just speculation, we actually don't know what it will have when it arrives in May.

Theories... Tin foil hat theories (Just kidding!)

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 08 April 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

Kodiak mounts no small amount of firepower in its arms, thus they are not quite as expendable as atlas arms. its also roughly the same size as the atlas, and, even with those big shield arms, pre structure quirked atlas was a in a sorry state.

a couple variants mount more energy in the arms than it likely can use. Most also pack huge amounts of torso firepower. For instance, on the Prime, I'll probably be packing 4x ERSL in each arm. Losing one of those, instead of my Torso, with my UAC20, LPL, 2x aSRM6. And if I force you to take both arms? (Standard VTR jock tactics, when VTRs were decent) that's a lot of time spent arming me that I'm feeding you a ton of hurt... and after you take my arms I still pack Heavy Mech firepower.

*shrugs* Losing your arms is ALWAYs better than your Torso.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

*shrugs* Losing your arms is ALWAYs better than your Torso.

When you are driving a clan mech, that gets hot glue released from the feet of the mech when you lose a ST, especially...

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

When you are driving a clan mech, that gets hot glue released from the feet of the mech when you lose a ST, especially...

You could just bring a Standard engine then! Yayyy Clan BattleMechs

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

You could just bring a Standard engine then! Yayyy Clan BattleMechs

I miss sword and board clan builds...

Now get rekt for losing the board...

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

I miss sword and board clan builds...

Now get rekt for losing the board...

But... you can do those on the Kodiak using a standard engine.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

But... you can do those on the Kodiak using a standard engine.

You could...but...not really enough asymmetry there...

The HBR used to be an amazing sword and board 6 MPL mech. Now it is an average 6 MPL mech with ECM.

[1453 R]

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

Not enough difference to matter...

That is also not even considering that Clan FF ends up giving another ~1-1.5 tons.

So, you are talking about being at ~47 tons at 70 kph, versus 51.5 tons at 52 kph.

Additionally...if the KDK wants to carry more weight, you can drop all the way to the XL300 and bring ES/FF meaning the KDK can mount demonstrably more firepower if warranted, an extra 15 tons in fact..-.

There is no world where the DW is not outright worse than the KDK with the exception of a few builds that the KDK can do "good enough".

Thing is, Sphere assault 'Mechs can still only mount maybe two-thirds, at best, of the overall firepower of a Dire Whale. Whether or not the Kodiak is 'better' than the Whale is irrelevant in the overall picture of things. The Krab still can't match the Whale for sheer damage output, and so far as I know the Krab is still the Sphere's best option for just raw, monstrous gunbaggery in an assault 'Mech, possibly matched but certainly not exceeded by the Mauler. Most other assault 'Mechs on either side of the tech divide can't even pretend to measure up; they carry significantly less firepower.

besides which. Even with standard structure and armor, the Whale often ends up running into critspace issues. How is a Kodiak with ES/FF going to exceed a Whale's firepower, tonnage available or no, if it doesn't have the space to do so?

No, Gyrok - the existence of the Kodiak doesn't mean the Whale should be able to twist like a Stormcrow. There is a very good reason the Whale twists like a Whale, and it's the same reason the Kodiak is going to twist like a Whale, too. As sad as that will make many Spirit Bear owners. I'll admit, I snagged the standard pack+SB on a lark before thinking this through, and it does make me just a little bit sad. That's all right, though. If the Spirit Bear could twist like a Stormcrow, it probably would be as power-creepy as people keep thinking it's going to be.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 April 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

If the Spirit Bear has a 70 degree torso twist arc it can't mess with an AS7-S. It already loses on firepower because Clan SRMs are inferior to IS SRMs and IS has the AC20 while the SB will have to make do to with an LB20 or UAC-20 (less PPFLD). And if it doesn't have structure quirks or the same torso twist arc I think an AS7-S will still out brawl it, regardless of its extra mobility.

Of course, this will be tested extensively by multiple parties on May 17th so we will see. Those are just my theories.

the PPFLD difference is so minor between UACs and AC20s now. A double burst is the duration of a SPL which is pretty short for twisting and easy to keep on target. Considering it's 2 tons lighter, and double the damage? Seems a fair tradeoff.

And Clan SRMs do less dmg, but weigh half as much.

An alpha from a UAC20/LPL/2xaSRM6 Kodiak ain't nothing to sneeze. 70 plus alpha without it's arms. Just saying.

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

When you are driving a clan mech, that gets hot glue released from the feet of the mech when you lose a ST, especially...

Compared to an IS mech that Dies? (or a slow STD with less firepower)

Really?
Not playign that old saw still.... SMH

Seriously.... you gotta get over that.

Gyrok, on 08 April 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

You could...but...not really enough asymmetry there...

The HBR used to be an amazing sword and board 6 MPL mech. Now it is an average 6 MPL mech with ECM.

AH yes, you could do it...so again... ummm what disadvantage over the IS is there?

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 08 April 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

Thing is, Sphere assault 'Mechs can still only mount maybe two-thirds, at best, of the overall firepower of a Dire Whale. Whether or not the Kodiak is 'better' than the Whale is irrelevant in the overall picture of things. The Krab still can't match the Whale for sheer damage output, and so far as I know the Krab is still the Sphere's best option for just raw, monstrous gunbaggery in an assault 'Mech, possibly matched but certainly not exceeded by the Mauler. Most other assault 'Mechs on either side of the tech divide can't even pretend to measure up; they carry significantly less firepower.

besides which. Even with standard structure and armor, the Whale often ends up running into critspace issues. How is a Kodiak with ES/FF going to exceed a Whale's firepower, tonnage available or no, if it doesn't have the space to do so?

No, Gyrok - the existence of the Kodiak doesn't mean the Whale should be able to twist like a Stormcrow. There is a very good reason the Whale twists like a Whale, and it's the same reason the Kodiak is going to twist like a Whale, too. As sad as that will make many Spirit Bear owners. I'll admit, I snagged the standard pack+SB on a lark before thinking this through, and it does make me just a little bit sad. That's all right, though. If the Spirit Bear could twist like a Stormcrow, it probably would be as power-creepy as people keep thinking it's going to be.

I just want to point out the Mauler is the premier non-Brawl assault. The 5AC5 build is incredibly effective from mid to long range, it has surpassed the Dire Wolf in usefulness. Probably one of the most common assault mechs in MRBC right now. When brawls are guaranteed AS7-S gets looks, but the Dire King's days are over for now.

[pbiggz]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

a couple variants mount more energy in the arms than it likely can use. Most also pack huge amounts of torso firepower. For instance, on the Prime, I'll probably be packing 4x ERSL in each arm. Losing one of those, instead of my Torso, with my UAC20, LPL, 2x aSRM6. And if I force you to take both arms? (Standard VTR jock tactics, when VTRs were decent) that's a lot of time spent arming me that I'm feeding you a ton of hurt... and after you take my arms I still pack Heavy Mech firepower.

*shrugs* Losing your arms is ALWAYs better than your Torso.

True but remember the DDC's medium laser arms? You could lose those without too much issue. In fact many people run atlases with nothing in the arms at all. Kodiaks will likely do similar, but with more hardpoint weight in the arms, it means losing those arms will still be more of a hit to its firepower, and once the arms do drop, they have free reign to hit what appears to be an extremely wide torso. Clan XL engines will help it some with speed, but its still gonna be about as durable as a paper bag unless they give it structure.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

the PPFLD difference is so minor between UACs and AC20s now. A double burst is the duration of a SPL which is pretty short for twisting and easy to keep on target. Considering it's 2 tons lighter, and double the damage? Seems a fair tradeoff.

And Clan SRMs do less dmg, but weigh half as much.

An alpha from a UAC20/LPL/2xaSRM6 Kodiak ain't nothing to sneeze. 70 plus alpha without it's arms. Just saying.

1 slug > 4 slugs.

Quote

Compared to an IS mech that Dies? (or a slow STD with less firepower)

Really?
Not playign that old saw still.... SMH

Seriously.... you gotta get over that.


AH yes, you could do it...so again... ummm what disadvantage over the IS is there?

You mean a structure quirked IS mech with an extra 20 structure in the ST that means it gets to alpha that sweet, sweet, short duration pinpoint 50+ laser alpha again, and if it has a shield arm, even 2-3 times? All the while it runs circles around your crippled mech that lost a ST?

Those same mechs?

Just curious...

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

the PPFLD difference is so minor between UACs and AC20s now. A double burst is the duration of a SPL which is pretty short for twisting and easy to keep on target. Considering it's 2 tons lighter, and double the damage? Seems a fair tradeoff.

And Clan SRMs do less dmg, but weigh half as much.

An alpha from a UAC20/LPL/2xaSRM6 Kodiak ain't nothing to sneeze. 70 plus alpha without it's arms. Just saying.


Compared to an IS mech that Dies? (or a slow STD with less firepower)

Really?
Not playign that old saw still.... SMH

Seriously.... you gotta get over that.


AH yes, you could do it...so again... ummm what disadvantage over the IS is there?

Yeah, but if the Fatlas can out-twist the Spirit Bear (and/or standard Kodiak), that's a not insignificant advantage for the Fatlas. The AS7-S has slightly more SRM firepower than the Spirit Bear, while the Spirit Bear has an arguably better autocannon. In brawling range I'm going to call iMLs and cSPLs a wash between the two of them (I know, I KNOW, that's not actually remotely true. Between these two, given everything else they're doing? The differences are less critical than they might otherwise be). They're going to have roughly similar RAWRGSMASH capabilities; the Spirit Bear will be faster, significantly so with its M.A.S.C. up, but it'll also be less durable without the AS7's massive structure quirks, and if it's limited to Whale-level twisting as well, it's going to be much easier to tear down.

In an out-and-out Kaiju Rumble between the two...I could see the AS7-S taking it, assuming what we're currently figuring to be the case with the Spirit Bear's twist arcs and lack-of-quirks. In said Kaiju Rumble, the AS7-S will probably have a pretty hefty edge over any non-Spirit Bear Kodiak as well. They just can't match its defensive ruggedness.

'Course, the Spirit Bear will be much better at running down, and subsequently over, smaller machines than the AS7-S will be, which gives it a certain flair. Dat M.A.S.C., bruh. I can't help but picture the Spirit Bear charging a Hunchback with that freight train horn sound going, and watching the Hunchback leak coolant all over its legs because it knows there's no hope anymore.

Most anything (other than a Whale, and/or Krabs/Maulers) can get away from an AS7-S if they have to. The Spirit Bear? Not so much.

Edited by 1453 R, 08 April 2016 - 05:12 PM.