1049 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

On the other hand, the Linebacker will almost certainly be able to do 4E/4M. Possibly more. Can't tell without finding the hardpoint layout, but the D by itself is 3E/4M, and I can't believe there isn't something SOMEWHERE in its other E-heavy configurations that can't improve that.

The issue is the Stormcrow does 5E/3M (or, alternatively, silly amounts of E/3M) going the same speed with more room for ammo and heat sinks (even taking into account the four engine-locked sinks in the Linebacker), with a smaller build and the Stormcrow's legendary hitboxes.

I'll admit - if the Stormcrow didn't exist the Linebacker would be more intriguing than it is, but given the fact that the Stormcrow exists...the Linebacker has a lot of work to do to really be good. I dunno. We'll see what happens if/when it turns up for sale.

[ScarecrowES]

1453 R, on 14 April 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

with a smaller build and the Stormcrow's legendary hitboxes.

I'd take issue here with the 'smaller build' part. The Linebacker would be ridiculously small due to it's shape. About the same size as the current Nova model.

Where I see use for the Linebacker are in roles the Stormcrow is now considered too weak to fill. It's fallen out of favor in CW largely because it can't last during an attack push, and gets eaten alive on defense. When Clans were much more limited in drop deck tonnage limits, the Stormcrow was a more-than-acceptable trade-off to allow a bit more tonnage to be focused into mechs like the TBR. Now that tonnage limits are normalized, there's no longer much reason to compromise on squishiness.

But in the move to more survivable mechs, you've lost what made the Stormcrow a useful mech in the first place... speed. Specifically the ability to shift and meet different challenges should they arise... such as flanking lights, etc, where getting some place in a hurry is important.

The Linebacker really is the best of both worlds here... survivability of the heavier mech, speed of the lighter one. And you're bringing at least as much firepower to the fight as the Crow, so I don't see how this is a loss. I don't hear anyone complaining that the Crow doesn't output high enough to hold its own in a straight up fight (it just won't last long). If the Backer can run builds known to rake in 1000 damage per match on other mechs, it stands to reason it'd be able to do the same with them.

[Gyrok]

ScarecrowES, on 14 April 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

I'd take issue here with the 'smaller build' part. The Linebacker would be ridiculously small due to it's shape. About the same size as the current Nova model.

Where I see use for the Linebacker are in roles the Stormcrow is now considered too weak to fill. It's fallen out of favor in CW largely because it can't last during an attack push, and gets eaten alive on defense. When Clans were much more limited in drop deck tonnage limits, the Stormcrow was a more-than-acceptable trade-off to allow a bit more tonnage to be focused into mechs like the TBR. Now that tonnage limits are normalized, there's no longer much reason to compromise on squishiness.

But in the move to more survivable mechs, you've lost what made the Stormcrow a useful mech in the first place... speed. Specifically the ability to shift and meet different challenges should they arise... such as flanking lights, etc, where getting some place in a hurry is important.

The Linebacker really is the best of both worlds here... survivability of the heavier mech, speed of the lighter one. And you're bringing at least as much firepower to the fight as the Crow, so I don't see how this is a loss. I don't hear anyone complaining that the Crow doesn't output high enough to hold its own in a straight up fight (it just won't last long). If the Backer can run builds known to rake in 1000 damage per match on other mechs, it stands to reason it'd be able to do the same with them.

Here is your issue:

Linebacker = 16.5 Tons of podspace.

To put that in perspective, that is a 65 ton adder.

The SCR = 23 Tons of podspace.

To emphasize my point...

The linebacker cannot even bring as much firepower as a SCR. So how will it be as effective in a straight up fight?

The short answer...it will not.

If you want to bring an ADR loadout with 65 tons of armor...more power to you. I prefer something more solid than just 2 ERPPCs/2 LPL on a heavy mech...but to each their own. The most firepower toting build you could run effectively would be something like 6 ERMLs. Period.

Personally...I would not buy the linebacker, and if they gave it away for free...I would seriously be tempted to sell it unplayed.

Edited by Gyrok, 14 April 2016 - 08:35 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Gyrok, on 14 April 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

Here is your issue:

Linebacker = 16.5 Tons of podspace.

To put that in perspective, that is a 65 ton adder.

The SCR = 23 Tons of podspace.

To emphasize my point...

The linebacker cannot even bring as much firepower as a SCR. So how will it be as effective in a straight up fight?

The short answer...it will not.

If you want to bring an ADR loadout with 65 tons of armor...more power to you. I prefer something more solid than just 2 ERPPCs/2 LPL on a heavy mech...but to each their own. The most firepower toting build you could run effectively would be something like 6 ERMLs. Period.

Personally...I would not buy the linebacker, and if they gave it away for free...I would seriously be tempted to sell it unplayed.

You have to consider 4 locked DHS in the engine. And you're maxxing armor in your estimate. So effective weapons tonnage, including efficient armor and 4 sinks is 21 tons. Most SCR builds, you're just cramming DHS in at the end anyway, so you're realistically only losing 2 tons vs a mech that can't effectively use all it's tonnage regardless of how much it gets. I always have to find a way to lose tonnage on my SCRs by adding TCs or CAPs because I've run out of crit space that I can use without adding more heat (firepower).

So realistically, you're getting 2xLPL, 4xERML and 5xDHS. Or since you're speedy, drop to 4xERSL, increase to 7xDHS.

I think a lot of people forget the 4 free DHS on the engine in their build planning on the Backer. Makes a big difference when you factor that in.

Not factoring in the extra DHS makes it seems like you're running a warm 6xERML with 10-11xDHS. It's actually an overly cool 14-15xDHS. Maybe drop into a combo of med/sm pulse lasers instead. 4x MPL and 2xSPL maybe? Runs a bit cooler so we can afford to lose 4xDHS. Works better with the manueverability on the mech.

Alternatively, you'd be looking at 1xUAC10 (3t ammo) and 4xERML with 4xDHS. I think that build puts one laser in each arm, 2 high in one torso, and the ballistic high in the other.

Also, various combos of missiles and lasers, depending on what you prefer. Anywhere from 2 to 4 missile slots for balanced loadouts. Possible to run 4x SRM6+A with appropriate ammo.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 14 April 2016 - 09:00 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Never was a fan of the Linebacker... but your stalwart defense of this Mech - is turning my meaning.
I think i would love to run a Linebacker.... heck i think the Gargoyle is a fun Mech

[1453 R]

ScarecrowES, on 14 April 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

I'd take issue here with the 'smaller build' part. The Linebacker would be ridiculously small due to it's shape. About the same size as the current Nova model.

Where I see use for the Linebacker are in roles the Stormcrow is now considered too weak to fill. It's fallen out of favor in CW largely because it can't last during an attack push, and gets eaten alive on defense. When Clans were much more limited in drop deck tonnage limits, the Stormcrow was a more-than-acceptable trade-off to allow a bit more tonnage to be focused into mechs like the TBR. Now that tonnage limits are normalized, there's no longer much reason to compromise on squishiness.

But in the move to more survivable mechs, you've lost what made the Stormcrow a useful mech in the first place... speed. Specifically the ability to shift and meet different challenges should they arise... such as flanking lights, etc, where getting some place in a hurry is important.

The Linebacker really is the best of both worlds here... survivability of the heavier mech, speed of the lighter one. And you're bringing at least as much firepower to the fight as the Crow, so I don't see how this is a loss. I don't hear anyone complaining that the Crow doesn't output high enough to hold its own in a straight up fight (it just won't last long). If the Backer can run builds known to rake in 1000 damage per match on other mechs, it stands to reason it'd be able to do the same with them.

Claiming something is "the size of the current Nova" is not actually a great way to help your case. There are folks, myself among them, who believe the current Nova is the size of an assault 'Mech, and would be poorly-shaped even as the 85-tonner it looks like.

I understand the argument though. You have to remember, however - any Linebackers we get will not look like the TRO art. The TRO Linebacker achieves its tight profile and compact build by sacrificing torso twist/waist actuation and loading the legs directly onto the torso, which is not an option available in MWO. It will be shaped very differently. Different good, different bad...we have no way of knowing.

What we do know is that the 'Mech is built on a 390cXL, which is a remarkable tonnage-inefficient engine, and that ~107kph is not a drastic mobility boost over ~86kph. A significant one, possibly, but not as significant as the Black Lanner's actual-light-'Mech speed edge might be. The firepower concern is also very real - yeah, the Linebacker's got those four engine-mounted heat sinks to account for, but even then, the Linebacker loses to the Stormcrow in gear tonnage without having any guarantee of better durability performance. An unquirked 65-tonner with average geo/hitboxes wouldn't really be any less flimsy than an unquirked Stormcrow with Stormcrow geo/hitboxes. Even assuming you get lucky and they build it in a Marauder-ish vein...do you want to face down a Cauldron-Born in a Linebacker?

The Linebacker might well be serviceable. Probably would be, hardpoints dependent. A lot of things ultracomp wannabes decry as "TOTEZ USELESS!!1!" are in fact generally serviceable. I don't think it'll be great, short unforeseen megaquirking. There's too much going against it, and too many actually-really-good Clan heavies jostling its elbows, for it to be a go-to anything.

Edited by 1453 R, 15 April 2016 - 11:13 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

1453 R, on 15 April 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

The Linebacker might well be serviceable. Probably would be, hardpoints dependent. A lot of things ultracomp wannabes decry as "TOTEZ USELESS!!1!" are in fact generally serviceable. I don't think it'll be great, short unforeseen megaquirking. There's too much going against it, and too many actually-really-good Clan jostling its elbows, for it to be a go-to anything.

Quick reference here for where things will end up after the volumetric rescale, but the current Nova model is at around 61-62 tons. And mechs like the Shadowhawk, which are considered too big for their britches, are actually correctly sized. At 50 tons, a 62-ton model is way too big for the Nova, but keep in mind the Shadowhawk isn't getting any smaller. The current Nova model is a much smaller target than the current Shadowhawk model, certainly, so it's easily argued that the 65-ton Linebacker, shaped like the Nova, will easily be the smallest 65 tonner around.

In terms of shape, most 3D representations of the Backer give it torso twist. From MW4:



For MWO, the hips will have to be made wider... PGI insists that the outer hip dimension and the outer torso dimensions on ever mech are the same. This will result in more of the mech's weight being focused in the legs than on the MW4 model, and will thus create a smaller proportional torso as well. This will also push the whole model proportionately smaller.

In fairness, the MW4 model actually mounts the torso hardpoints LOWER than is shown in many of the canon representations - those often having the torso equipment mounted on top of the torso where the weird "shoulder pads" sit on the MW4 version. The Backer has every kind of hardpoint in either torso on various versions. I had to go through the build sheets, because I don't think anyone has done an official compilation of Backer hardpoints - difficult because some versions have rear-mounted weapons - to see exactly how the hardpoints lined up.

There are actually 8 total simultaneous energy hardpoints possible using pods from the A and C variants, and 5 of those are in the upper torso sections.



Edit: To hell with it... just went through the trouble to upload and link the whole image. Easier in the end.

8 energy hardpoints opens up a lot of builds. Oh wait. Looking at SSW, the default loadouts of the Backer are already using 192 of 211 armor points with 17.5 tons of free pod space. That means it isn't a stretch to drop 1/2 ton of armor and free a total of 18 tons of free pod space. With 4 locked DHS, that's 22 tons of effective pod space, instead of the oft-reported 16 tons. SSW let me put 1xUAC10, 2xERML, and 3xERSL with 15xDHS and 3 tons of UAC10 ammo with the base amount of armor. Drop 1/2 ton of armor, and you could just run 5xERML with 14xDHS. It won't run cool, but it will chew the hell out of anything it comes across.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 15 April 2016 - 01:11 PM.

[1453 R]

Hn. So 5E/4M is possible between the A, C, and D. Lessee...

Six tons for four cSRM-6, four more tons for ammo if one cares to run light. Ten tons. Five additional tons for five cERML or cSPL, to taste, makes fifteen tons. Leaves two or three tons for extra DHS, for a total of sixteen to seventeen. Still warm with all those beams, but serviceable.

Equivalent* Stormcrow gets 18 cDHS with the same four launchers w/four tons and five beams, though admittedly the weapons are in hinky places that complicate aiming. Not how I'd build a mixed E/M Stormcrow, but as has been pointed out to me recently I'm a worthless T4 scrubmaster, what do I know. Nevertheless, in that circumstance the Linebacker probably pulls even with the Stormcrow, assuming that its ten-tons-heavier frame balances out the Stormcrow's infamous geo/hitboxes/gait Immortality Drive.

The LB can also do 5E assym on the left, for those odd people who do sword/board builds on everything. 'Course, the Stormcrow can do 6E assym on the side of its choosing, 8E assym if it wants to go with a right-handed sword. Neither 'Mech really does ballistics worth a damn, though I do still enjoy my old Gausslasers SCR. In this instance I'd posit that the SCR pulls ahead by a touch, as it has the extra free tonnage to choose its own mix of big cannon, supporting energy/missiles, and heat sinks to taste, while the Linebacker is locked into at least four cDHS the pilot may decide he doesn't need. Not a common, or necessarily good, option, but it is an option.

The big grinder, of course, is that the Linebacker takes a ten-tons-bigger bite out of a CW dropdeck, and also kicks you up into the eternally oversaturated Heavy queue in regular play. Both are big opportunity costs in their respective modes, for a 'Mech which, mostly, pulls even with the Stormcrow.

I'm still not convinced the Linebacker would be a top-flight choice, not at a tonnage point that includes Cauldron-Borns and Hellbringers in a weight class that includes Timber Wolves, but I suppose there's worse things you could be than "about equivalent to a (fat) Stormcrow."

[ScarecrowES]

1453 R, on 15 April 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

I'm still not convinced the Linebacker would be a top-flight choice, not at a tonnage point that includes Cauldron-Borns and Hellbringers in a weight class that includes Timber Wolves, but I suppose there's worse things you could be than "about equivalent to a (fat) Stormcrow."

I wouldn't say top flight either. It's not likely to be tier 1. But a niche mech easily capable of 1000 damage a match, and finding a home in situations where you need a Stormcrow that can take a few more hits (CW) or a Hellbringer with more speed (CW)... I think the Linebacker fills a role. And far from DOA.

[Metus regem]

ScarecrowES, on 15 April 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

I wouldn't say top flight either. It's not likely to be tier 1. But a niche mech easily capable of 1000 damage a match, and finding a home in situations where you need a Stormcrow that can take a few more hits (CW) or a Hellbringer with more speed (CW)... I think the Linebacker fills a role. And far from DOA.

I'd say 1k DMG match's are not a yard stick to measure if a Mech is good or not.... I've been in matches where pilots have done 1k games in Vindicators and Locusts.....

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 15 April 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

I'd say 1k DMG match's are not a yard stick to measure if a Mech is good or not.... I've been in matches where pilots have done 1k games in Vindicators and Locusts.....

Sure, but you're looking at consistent high-damage alphas on a compact fast chassis. Even if we're thinking "fat Stormcrow," it gets a smaller profile and more armor too. So equal or better survivability with the same damage output, speed, etc. If it "only" performs as well as the Stormcrow, regardless of tonnage, it's an upper tier mech. Maybe not tier 1, because it trades a bit of weight for that performance, but still...

The question becomes, is the investment of an extra ten tons for upper tier performance really a negative? Are there situations where that trade-off isn't ok? Or maybe the opposite view... are there occasions where trading in a bit of tonnage for the sake of survivability is ok?

You don't see the Stormcrow so much in CW anymore because the new drop weights don't require you to skimp on weight, and as good as the hitboxes are on the on that mech, it's still only 55 tons. Quite a bit too weak to participate in the sort of action required of clan mechs in CW. They great for flanking, chasing lights, and getting where needed in a hurry... but they're not capable of a stand-up fight during a push (attacking or defending). So for 10 tons more, you get a mech with an extra 10 points of armor all the way around, and it otherwise has the same output. Now, you've got a fat Stormcrow without the one weakness that keeps your from running that mech in CW, but you've traded 10 tons of drop weight to get it.

That's a pretty reasonable trade-off when we have enough drop weight to cover it. If you're going to run 4 65-tonners, would one of those benefit from being a fast striker? Absolutely.

Interestingly enough, coming up on 4 v 4 matches in CW, the Linebacker might have the chance to run its perfect role... the one it was designed for... to provide the muscle for a group of lighter mechs.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 15 April 2016 - 08:59 PM.

[Ace Selin]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 April 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

Do explain. The 16 tons of podspace should be just enough for some mild laser vomit or SRMs, sounds so exciting from a heavy mech. Even a Summoner would outgun that thing.

I was agreeing with you, as in yep totally agree, i even liked your post, thought that made it obvious i agreed with it, id rather have the Kingfisher or Turkina over the Linebacker.

Edited by Ace Selin, 17 April 2016 - 07:41 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Ace Selin, on 17 April 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

I was agreeing with you, as in yep totally agree, i even liked your post, thought that made it obvious i agreed with it, id rather have the Kingfisher or Turkina over the Linebacker.

Technically it's 17.5 tons of free space... 18 if you drop 1/2 ton armor from the nearly max armor allocation it gets by default... plus 4 locked DHS makes it 22 tons of effective pod space.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ace Selin, on 17 April 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

I was agreeing with you, as in yep totally agree, i even liked your post, thought that made it obvious i agreed with it, id rather have the Kingfisher or Turkina over the Linebacker.

My bad man, I took it the other way, sorry. I though you were saying, "Yep, totally see why the Linebacker is worth releasing over the Kingfisher/Turkina"

ScarecrowES, on 17 April 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

Technically it's 17.5 tons of free space... 18 if you drop 1/2 ton armor from the nearly max armor allocation it gets by default... plus 4 locked DHS makes it 22 tons of effective pod space.

I thought full armor was 16 tons of podspace.. so really you can reasonably shave .5 tons off of that but that doesn't change much.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 April 2016 - 10:14 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 April 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

My bad man, I took it the other way, sorry.



I thought full armor was 16 tons of podspace.. so really you can reasonably shave .5 tons off of that but that doesn't change much.

Default it sits at 192 of 211 allocated armor. That's a lot. Most mechs transferred from TT values come underarmored by default. The Linebacker comes overarmored. It's nearly maxxed with 17.5 tons of free space. That's technically above max efficient armor rating. Very few people playing MWO run their armor at that high a percentage of full. You could easily pull 1/2 ton armor... 16pts (8pts TT) from the legs and arms to give you 18 tons free space. The 4xDHS in the engine brings you up to 22 tons effective pod space - because let's face it, unless you're running pure ballistic/missile builds, you're going to want those 4 sinks anyway. It's not like having JJs as locked equipment, as the sinks go directly to the effectiveness of the weapons you mount, so the weight of those sinks should be included in any accounting of effective weapon tonnage.

22 tons for Linebacker, 23 for Stormcrow. Same speed. Smaller profile for the Linebacker, and more armor/internals. Higher mobility (twist and turning) too.

[Jackal Noble]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE

[CK16]

JackalBeast, on 17 April 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

BAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE

Wishful thinking but it is pretty much thought by the majority here that the next 3 will be Omni's and at that 1 more medium and 2 heavies. BUT it is Russ he does change his mind often.

Edited by CK16, 17 April 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

ya it sure is

[Bishop Steiner]

CK16, on 17 April 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

Wishful thinking but it is pretty much thought by the majority here that the next 3 will be Omni's and at that 1 more medium and 2 heavies. BUT it is Russ he does change his mind often.

Eh. Technically what read said was that they couldn't make a jumbo pack because the only real viable Omni's they felt were two heavy and two medium.

So I think people are reading to much into that as being confirmed the next 4.

[Metus regem]

CK16, on 17 April 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

Wishful thinking but it is pretty much thought by the majority here that the next 3 will be Omni's and at that 1 more medium and 2 heavies. BUT it is Russ he does change his mind often.

Considering that in the same breath, he stated that there were no Assualt class mechs for the pack, I'm going to go with he is talking 2/2 medium/heavy Omni-mechs. I say this, as there are some beastly Assualt class battlemechs for the Clans at this point in time.

Phoenix Hawk IIC, ballistic heavy and missile heavy variants

Warhammer IIC, same great pain bringer as the IS version just 10t heavier with Clan toys!

Marauder IIC, same great IS Mech, just 10t heavier with Clan toys... Also the base variant is a laser vomit death dealer.


So that's three very strong Assualt class battlemechs, and there are more in that pot too, like the Kraken, Stone Rhino and Supernova.