143 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 07 April 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

In the dual gauss thread around here somewhere the OP posted that he was instagibbed in the split second it took him to torso twist. There are times when no amount of torso twisting will help you.

Are my reflexes slower than yours? Probably. Should I stop playing then? Being instagibbed is no fun. Sometimes you can shrug it off with a "oops, I f*cked up", but you can do everything right and it won't make a bit of difference. I generally stay away from FPS because I have a hard time tracking targets with my reflexes. I stay with MWO because I'm a big fan of the genre. But if I can't compete on your level, what should I do? "Git gud?" I can only hone my reflexes so much and I have never had consistently good reflexes. Meta up? Maybe but it's boring. I'm firmly in T2 now, so I am forced to your level.

Just do your best and accept that sometimes your team is going to get pigeon holed into a bad spot and you will have to expose yourself to a firing line? I mean, once you take ego out of the equation, who cares that you had a bad match and got killed quickly. I see known top players get ~100 damage games sometimes. **** happens, move on.

A lot of times its not even about reflexes, its about poor scouting (or scouts not relaying information which happens often) and knowing where the known locations of getting wrecked are. Think, "If I step out here, and there is a chance there are 6 mechs around the corner, I shouldn't take the chance of trying to poke or move that direction".

I can't stress enough, its not even about lightning fast reflexes, its more of a risk vs reward thing. The wrong-doing is being in the wrong spot, not having reflexes that are too slow.

[CDLord HHGD]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 April 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

Just do your best and accept that sometimes your team is going to get pigeon holed into a bad spot and you will have to expose yourself to a firing line? I mean, once you take ego out of the equation, who cares that you had a bad match and got killed quickly. I see known top players get ~100 damage games sometimes. **** happens, move on.

A lot of times its not even about reflexes, its about poor scouting (or scouts not relaying information which happens often) and knowing where the known locations of getting wrecked are. Think, "If I step out here, and there is a chance there are 6 mechs around the corner, I shouldn't take the chance of trying to poke or move that direction".

I can't stress enough, its not even about lightning fast reflexes, its more of a risk vs reward thing. The wrong-doing is being in the wrong spot, not having reflexes that are too slow.

But the flip side of that coin is everyone is afraid to move out of their cover and the opfor flanks or whatever. A stationary force (unless you're behind a wall) is a dead force. I think taking that initiative (and then getting hung out to ry by your team) should be less risk in the very short term. Should I die? Probably. Should I die in <1 second? I don't think so.

[Gas Guzzler]

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 07 April 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

But the flip side of that coin is everyone is afraid to move out of their cover and the opfor flanks or whatever. A stationary force (unless you're behind a wall) is a dead force. I think taking that initiative (and then getting hung out to ry by your team) should be less risk in the very short term. Should I die? Probably. Should I die in <1 second? I don't think so.

Team work is essential, and if your team becomes static in a bad spot (where any exit is essentially met with a firing line) unfortunately the match is probably over. I don't think you should die in <1 second either, but I don't know how often that actually happens.

People say that, but you literally have to crest in assault mech, chest square towards an enemy firing line for that to happen, and in most cases, already have some CT armor missing. But I implore you, watch some of the MRBC matches and see that mechs typically don't die that quickly, there is a reason for that, and its primarily positioning, scouting, and otherwise teamwork. Any of the matches at mrbcleague.com that have the little twitch icon next to them on the upcoming matches list are going to be broadcasted.

[Cabusha]

I gave up on my traditional SRM/Ballistic brawlers and switched to laser vomiting with a black knight. And suddenly my match scores and win/loss started climbing again. Go figure.

[Gas Guzzler]

Cabusha, on 07 April 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

I gave up on my traditional SRM/Ballistic brawlers and switched to laser vomiting with a black knight. And suddenly my match scores and win/loss started climbing again. Go figure.

Yes, given the unpredictable nature of the public queue (random map, random team, random game mode, etc), a laser vomit Black Knight will give you better scores on average because it isn't specialized in short range brawling or long range sniping.

[Lead Sponge]

Metus regem, on 07 April 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:

Always mixed builds, as close to stock as I can.

I do the same. I have personally started calling them "upgraded stock" builds. I've gotten quite comfortable using mixed builds mainly because they are flexible and I can pretty much respond to all situations. I've found that each stock build has a certain rhythm to them and when you figure that out you can be really effective.

[CDLord HHGD]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 April 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

Team work is essential, and if your team becomes static in a bad spot (where any exit is essentially met with a firing line) unfortunately the match is probably over. I don't think you should die in <1 second either, but I don't know how often that actually happens.

People say that, but you literally have to crest in assault mech, chest square towards an enemy firing line for that to happen, and in most cases, already have some CT armor missing. But I implore you, watch some of the MRBC matches and see that mechs typically don't die that quickly, there is a reason for that, and its primarily positioning, scouting, and otherwise teamwork. Any of the matches at mrbcleague.com that have the little twitch icon next to them on the upcoming matches list are going to be broadcasted.

I'm not comp and I don't want to be comp, but I'm still T2..... Losing long enough and enough times to get back down to relative non-comp levels isn't what I call fun either....

I wonder how much a hobo would cost me to play poorly for a week straight on my account...

[Lightfoot]

I always use a mixed build if the mech has the hardpoints for it. MWO's problem is the mechs are too fragile so it can only support working lasers, so that is how it is balanced, with bad Gauss, slo-mo ACs and PPCs and weak LRMs, SSRMs, but excellent Lasers. You can get ACs to work on some mechs that can't use all the space up with lasers like 90-100 ton assaults, but laser-boats are what you have to be able to beat if you take a mixed build.

[Barantor]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 April 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Even stock matches, it can still boil down to spam the most Gauss Rifles of taking Thunder Hawks and Hollanders, I'm not disagreeing that it made the game boring (though even Gauss walls have weaknesses), just pointing out that it is effective.

No one wants a boring and shallow meta (build wise) but currently it is a lot more diverse than most realize. That said, depending on the definition of "mixed build" is, you could potentially improve this, it is just that every time one of these builds pop up (PPC/Gauss/AC5s or Gauss/ERML) they get nerfed later because they end up being too powerful forgetting the fact you need to encourage weapons to be used together (meaning similar firing behaviors). Bracket builds are much harder to encourage, and probably never will be.

The counter in tabletop are cheaper units we don't see in MWO because they aren't mechs. A few tanks can take down a hollander before it can fire that one guass through all of them and cost significantly less in BV, tonnage and C-bills. That is where it is balanced, when an infantry platoon with incendiary srms are something that mechs are afraid of....

We have the advantage of knowing it is only going to be mechs, what ranges we will encounter the majority of them in and not having to worry about outside damage except artillery. Of course specialization will work better and it is why folks bitched and moaned about turrets when they were in.

[Bilbo]

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 07 April 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

I'm not comp and I don't want to be comp, but I'm still T2..... Losing long enough and enough times to get back down to relative non-comp levels isn't what I call fun either....

I wonder how much a hobo would cost me to play poorly for a week straight on my account...

It will take longer than a week. I've been playing poorly for months and can't find my way out of tier 2. As to the OP, I run 2LL, AC/20, and 3ASRM4.

[1453 R]

Cabusha, on 07 April 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

I gave up on my traditional SRM/Ballistic brawlers and switched to laser vomiting with a black knight. And suddenly my match scores and win/loss started climbing again. Go figure.

As Guzzler said - that's as much a Pug Lyfe issue as anything else. Medium-range builds are just more consistent than dedicated brawlers or dedicated snipers and pretty much always will be, because you can't build a group drop with two hundred SRM tubes or fifteen large lasers in Puglandia.

Doesn't mean you can't brawl or can't snipe. Just means you'll have a few more lumpy, pear-shaped matches, in exchange for those times when you drop on the right map with the right team and go on a 1200-damage brawling tear that makes you feel like Superman.

One of my favorite current 'Mechs is a hex cSRM-4 Jenner-IIC. Nothing but SRMs, incapable of non-brawly combat. Not what I would call consistent..but fantastic when it works, and a great way to mix things up when I'm getting bored with the breadwinners.

Unless you sold all your SRM-ocannon brawlers to fund the Black Knigget, there's nothing saying you can't split your attention.

[Gas Guzzler]

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 07 April 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

I'm not comp and I don't want to be comp, but I'm still T2..... Losing long enough and enough times to get back down to relative non-comp levels isn't what I call fun either....

I wonder how much a hobo would cost me to play poorly for a week straight on my account...

You don't need to be comp, that wasn't the point. I just want people to realize that there IS a way to not get killed in <1 second, and the response is "I don't want to play that way, better to have PGI make it so EVERYBODY has to play the way I want them to". That is essentially what this argument boils down to.

[badaa]

all my mechs r mixed builds unless the mech itself has only 1 type of hard point

[Impyrium]

Sadly the most viable mechs in MWO are the opposite of mixed. Viable mechs are ones that can mount a certain combination of weapons that allow it to alpha, or output a large amount of damage quickly, so it can twist away.

So because the game has that focus on builds that can output large amounts of damage instantly and then damage twist, any mech that has weapons that can't all be fired at once logically loses out.

That's not even to get into the fact that any build that relies on DPS or a mixed weapon output, especially assaults, can't twist effectively and thus fall victim to the pin-point alpha focusing.

This is all why I'm looking forward to this heat change. If mechs are no longer able to simply fire large combinations of weapons at once, then it might give DPS or mixed mechs another chance.

[Bilbo]

Dingo Red, on 07 April 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Sadly the most viable mechs in MWO are the opposite of mixed. Viable mechs are ones that can mount a certain combination of weapons that allow it to alpha, or output a large amount of damage quickly, so it can twist away.

So because the game has that focus on builds that can output large amounts of damage instantly and then damage twist, any mech that has weapons that can't all be fired at once logically loses out.

That's not even to get into the fact that any build that relies on DPS or a mixed weapon output, especially assaults, can't twist effectively and thus fall victim to the pin-point alpha focusing.

This is all why I'm looking forward to this heat change. If mechs are no longer able to simply fire large combinations of weapons at once, then it might give DPS or mixed mechs another chance.

Depends entirely on what they are measuring to determine you have gone over the threshold, and we unfortunately have no earthly idea what that is. Number of weapons? Damage output? Who knows?

[Impyrium]

Bilbo, on 07 April 2016 - 03:54 PM, said:

Depends entirely on what they are measuring to determine you have gone over the threshold, and we unfortunately have no earthly idea what that is. Number of weapons? Damage output? Who knows?

Yeah it does depend, I guess we won't know anything until they release more details. I'm just going by what Homeless Bill suggested. It'll likely come down to an energy value for each weapon and a max output.

[Josef Koba]

I run mostly mixed builds, though I also have a few boats. I have the most fun in mechs with a variety of weapon systems that engage at various ranges. Granted, boats that use weapons with similar range profiles tend to perform maybe better. For instance, my four UAC/5 King Crab typically does better than my 2 x LLas, 2 x AC5, ?? SRM DDC, but I usually have more fun with the DDC. I try to play like I would if I were an actual mech pilot.

[oldradagast]

I Zeratul I, on 07 April 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

If I'm remembering right, you only get 3 weapon module slots at most which means only 1 weapon type can benefit from having both cooldown and range mods. That could represent the main reason behind people boating assorted vomit types. If there were 4 weapon module slots, then you could have cooldown and range on 2 different types and it might be more feasible to run mixed builds.

Weapon modules are the silent scourge of this game.

They are nothing but expensive, mindless, straight upgrades to your mech, they decrease the already low TTK even further, and they are yet another way - a way PGI did NOT have to add - to encourage people to boat weapons.

Some boating is going to happen because in an FPS, boating is far easier to handle than silly table-top builds that would require 5+ weapon groups to be viable. Stuff like that rarely works in a real-time game, but it is fine in a turn-based game. But the weapon modules did not need to be created and all they do is encourage boating even more.

Edited by oldradagast, 07 April 2016 - 04:01 PM.

[1453 R]

Dingo Red, on 07 April 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Sadly the most viable mechs in MWO are the opposite of mixed. Viable mechs are ones that can mount a certain combination of weapons that allow it to alpha, or output a large amount of damage quickly, so it can twist away.

So because the game has that focus on builds that can output large amounts of damage instantly and then damage twist, any mech that has weapons that can't all be fired at once logically loses out.

That's not even to get into the fact that any build that relies on DPS or a mixed weapon output, especially assaults, can't twist effectively and thus fall victim to the pin-point alpha focusing.

This is all why I'm looking forward to this heat change. If mechs are no longer able to simply fire large combinations of weapons at once, then it might give DPS or mixed mechs another chance.

Don't get your hopes too far up.

I don't really think there's anything in the entire world Piranha could do where the TT standby of one-of-everything will ever truly be viable. You just can't get an effective fight out of an SRM-4, an LRM-10, an AC/5, a TAG, a flamer, a machine gun, and two medium lasers. The amount of horrible rules contortion required to make that sort of snarled-up mess a viable loadout would pretty much break MWO altogether.

No matter what the alpha limits are, some weapons will always work together better than others, and some weapons will still never work well with others. Even if the alpha limit is something super small, like 20, brackety builds that have one set of guns for "short range 20" and another set of guns for "long range 20" will lose to short-range 20 'Mechs that spend the rest of their tonnage on other short-range equipment or extra armor/mobility, and the same with long-range-20.

It's just the way the fundamental game mechanics work.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 April 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Mine is that the game's unforgiving nature makes scouting and information paramount to success, and makes torso twisting vital to survival. It makes you have to think out every move to make sure you don't waste a bunch of armor or get killed.

The beauty of this game...and probably why I keep playing it.