33 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Mcgral18, on 07 April 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

What do you notice about the AC20 in this picture?

Other than it looking fantastic, of course.

The fact it has such a high chance to be hit. It is at the LOWEST chance it will ever be hit by a critical hit, because it is crit padded by the other two filled slots (actuators, at 10HP). If it's not protected in the ST, such as that heatsink in the LT, it will have a 100% chance to be struck.

The AC20 has 18 HP, throughout those 10 slots. 1.8HP/slot, so to speak.
Both those actuators have 10HP/crit.

Most ballistics have this problem, being larger weapons, but only having the typical 10 HP. The AC20 is the only AC exception to this rule, having 18 HP. One of four items in MWO which does not have 10 HP (being the AC20, Gauss(5), ECM(3) and the Engine(15), IIRC, all engines, Gauss and ECM suites follow this...but not AC20s.)

However, aside from the engine, Ballistics are the largest pieces of equipment. They also cost a fair bit of tonnage, yet die almost as soon as your structure is penetrated (also due to how FLD and the crit system interact...but that's another discussion).


One simple, not really bandaid solution is simply to, again, increase HP, but by more than marginal amounts. If the AC20 had 50 HP, it would survive a touch longer. That's still only 5 HP/crit, but a fair improvement over the current state.


At or under 15 HP, a Gauss Rifle can one-shot any piece of equipment that's not an AC20 (only 17-20% there) which has 14 armour protecting it. At 50 HP, only the AC20 itself could crit an AC20, 3% of the time (also at 19 or less armour)
Those are pretty forgiving odds.


Whether this should be tied to size, just tonnage or by feel can be debated...but some things should be hardier, IMO.

I'll give placeholder number of

• 50 for the isAC20
  
• 25 for the isAC10
  
• 18 for the isAC5
  
• 10 for the AC2...it's only one slot, but could also stand for an increase due to weighing 6 tons, the heaviest one slot item.

All ACs could stand for an increase, and might as well put this 6 month old chart up



Not exactly the numbers...but a general feel for HP increases.

no Buff to Gauss?

Id surely love to see it go up a bit on mechs with no crit padding as well, like mechs with them in the ST with NO crit padding?

[Alan Davion]

The Atlas Overlord, on 07 April 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

.

On a seperate note..... why doesn't PGI have actuators be meaningful? If my arm actuator is destroyed, the weapon should be locked aiming at where ever it was aiming when the actuator was destroyed. I think that'd be pretty cool.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, by the time the actuator itself is actually destroyed, you've probably already lost the gun, if not the entire arm it's housed in.

So there's no point as far as I can see.

While it would be nice visually, it would be a nightmare to code I imagine.

[Revis Volek]

Alan Davion, on 08 April 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, by the time the actuator itself is actually destroyed, you've probably already lost the gun, if not the entire arm it's housed in.

So there's no point as far as I can see.

While it would be nice visually, it would be a nightmare to code I imagine.

and your limb is being stretched in the wrong direction. there is the same chance of the GUN being hit as there is anything else housed in that component. So have DHS, Actuators, TC,s etc all have the same chance to be crit as your gun does.

[Mcgral18]

Revis Volek, on 08 April 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

no Buff to Gauss?

Id surely love to see it go up a bit on mechs with no crit padding as well, like mechs with them in the ST with NO crit padding?

You can always Crit pad it with half ton increments of ammo. That will almost always fill the ST, and then some (as 30 rounds is almost the min you want).

It's also a good weapon. I don't feel it needs the buff, between the range, ease of use, and damage, it wins lots of categories.

[100 Tonne]

I would like to see the atlas get a ac 20 health quirk. If I can get 5 shots off before it is critéd im lucky.

[lshtaria]

I don't know what the hell is up with the Marauder but it seems to lose the dorsal cannon almost immediately as soon as the armour is gone!

Ballistic HP is currently unacceptably low, especially considering lasers are often the more attractive proposition in the first place.

Hit points based on the amount of crit slots taken as per the OP's suggestion and don't take too long about it pgiplz.

[Xhaleon]

Most components are already tough enough as they are, Gauss Rifle excepted.

10 HP for small items needs to go. 10 HP for a medium laser means that a regular AC10 is better at destroying it than an LBX10; PGI's bizarro world is a wacky place to be in. 10 HP for slot of ammo is just plain stupid and is part of the reason why CASE is the only item in the game that is absolutely, positively useless.

[Troutmonkey]

sycocys, on 07 April 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

How often do you lose your cannon's regardless of their placement?

To my recollection it's almost never.

As someone who's just played 3 games in my AC20 wielding Misery and losing it in every game - it damn well happens. So frustrating

[EgoSlayer]

I'd be all for this with some sort of formula of Base health + x health (per slot or per ton). The AC's do seem too vulnerable after the armor is gone; they typical don't last and often don't make it past the first exposure.

[East Indy]

To account for the increasing likelihood of rolls per size, you could try a successive HP increase of 20% for every critical slot above 3. Thus, an AC/20 has 35 HP, while an AC/5 has 12 HP; you can calculate the rest.

One outside-looking-in thought: are outright destroyed weapons fun when, contrary to TT, we always control only one unit? What if critically hit weapons fired at half rate, instead? The opponent targeting us is trying to destroy components, and when he does we lose weapons and equipment anyway. If I'm in an Atlas with orange torsos, my missiles and autocannon are useable every 8 seconds — but I still have them — the match is a lot more interesting, and I'm motivated to work a lot harder, than if I'm stuck with sacrificial tanking.

[Jman5]

Anything more than 20 is too high. You're making them nearly indestructible on anything smaller than an assault because the component will almost always go first. You're suggesting we make a low percentage shot even harder, relying mostly on edge cases from specific PPFLD type weapons.

[Mcgral18]

Jman5, on 10 April 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Anything more than 20 is too high. You're making them nearly indestructible on anything smaller than an assault because the component will almost always go first. You're suggesting we make a low percentage shot even harder, relying mostly on edge cases from specific PPFLD type weapons.

How long does an AC20 survive after losing armour?

How often before the section is destroyed?


It's already at 18, so saying 20 will make a difference is laughable. More than 20 is needed for the AC20, at 10 slots.

Edited by Mcgral18, 10 April 2016 - 08:42 AM.

[EurakaLi]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 07 April 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

I'd be open to the idea of increasing ballistic component HP and decreasing energy weapons' HP.

Lasers are quite fragile, and giving them the same hp as a solid steel block that's intended to receive huge pressures is just silly. Are they saying that the optics, capacitors and other electronics of a laser are as durable as an AC20's barrel, chamber and housing? It's 12 tons (Clan) or 14 tons (IS) of solid hard metal, for goodness sake.

I reckon ballistics should be:
AC20: 25 hp
Gauss: 15 hp (it still explodes on destruction, though)
AC10: 20hp
AC5: 10 hp
AC2: 10 hp
MGs: 4 hp (not as durable as big cannons, but less touchy than lasers)

Energy weapons:
PPC: 6 hp
Large lasers: 7 hp (less volatile than PPC, but still fragile)
Medium / small lasers: 3 hp (small and destructible)
Flamers: 2hp (Be glad it doesn't cause an internal fire on destruction!)

Missiles... I'm not sure where these should stand. I guess the only sensitive part of a missile launcher is the autoloader and the launch door itself?

I think MG should be more durable,coz they are low tech weapons(like AK-47) tho they should work in worst condition

I was thinking that we should give Gauss 10 hp back (it so big...)but it get a extra penalty of getting high crit hit when charging (it actually more fun to time the return fire for someone using grass on you )the Gauss.

maybe every weapon have a base of 5 hp and each crit slot give +2.5 hp
so any item is 1 slot have 5 base + 2.5hp for 1 slot =7.5
a 2 slot item have 5 base hp + 2X2.55 hp for 2 slot=10 hp
so something like ac 20 have 30 hp lol
we might have to fix gauss somehow in that case
but other item seem to have good number

however I still new to the game I don't understand the crit hit system too much(too much word and complicated.
I only understand it start to crit after armor gone,but it still need some crit chance ,and choose 1 randome crit slot to do the damage?

but i did notice ballistics weapon got destroyed really often(king crab user...) when compare to my good old hunchback 4SP those med laser never seem to broke even i was red health....
LRM seem to not too durable ,but it will blow when your mech is red .

I want to ask, DHS get super high crit chance? DHS was the most often voice I hear from miss pretty :heat sink destoryed....
it like as soon as you lose armor in ST it will blow up lol

[Trauglodyte]

First off, I can't tell you how often that I lose my AC20 because, when driving my Atlas, it is gone within the first 5-7s of a push. That is either because I just got focused down or because some douchebag idiot on my team is mouth foaming to get a kill and just alphaed me in the back (I LOVE when that happens). Regardless, the fact that I pay 14 tons for a weapon with 270m effective range and have it removed instantaneously when someone sneezes at me while I have an open CT is terrible.

Truth be told, the best way to handle it is probably doing a calculation of damage X 2 or10 health, which ever is less. You could keep the Gauss at 15 health, which is fine considering its lore fragility, and everything would be kosher for ACs. I'm not sure that Energy or Missile weapons need a health boost, given that they're so tonnage friendly.