51 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

I thought this would be relevant given the recent discussion about CW/FW and balance in general...

Cross post from Reddit.

Edited by Gyrok, 09 April 2016 - 01:49 PM.

[FupDup]

Lol CW.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 09 April 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

Lol CW.

Somehow people trot it out as an actual balance metric...(LOL!)...so I figured this was a relevant post to link, since many knowledgeable players are discussing an issue that was a legitimate question in CW/FW

[Aresye]

A bunch of comp players agreeing that one of the best comp mechs is coincidentally one of the best ways to win in CW when you take 36 of them?

Color me shocked.

[Tristan Winter]

I for one welcome the new quirk changes brought by our FW overlords.

I'm sure MS or some other big unit will tweet Russ any time now and give him their demands for quirk changes. Meanwhile, mechs like the Summoner, Dragon and Catapult will go unchanged, because they're not relevant for Faction Warfare.

Faction Warfare - Causing weird balance changes since 3049

[Wintersdark]

Tristan Winter, on 09 April 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

I for one welcome the new quirk changes brought by our FW overlords.

I'm sure MS or some other big unit will tweet Russ any time now and give him their demands for quirk changes. Meanwhile, mechs like the Summoner, Dragon and Catapult will go unchanged, because they're not relevant for Faction Warfare.

Faction Warfare - Causing weird balance changes since 3049

See: "Buff the Timber and Direwolf to help"

This is someone that, while not on the face of it wrong (buffing the Timberwolf WOULD improve clans in FW, no doubt) is pants-on-head absurdly crazy.

The Timberwolf is fine, by any metric. You don't buff your (arguably) strongest mech to improve balance, that's just silly, as it makes all the rest of the mechs even worse in comparison.

The "improving clan weapons" part, yeah, it wouldn't be as crazy as buffing the TBR, but still: That's power creeping. Buff IS mech structure. Buff clan weapons to compensate. Buff structure more. Buff weapons more.

Better to just reduce those structure quirks somewhat.



This is what bugs me. Not about the above referenced poster in particular, mind you, but speaking generally:

People who are really interested in one particular aspect of the game, and make balance recommendations from a very, very narrow perspective. Even if their ideas aren't stupid on the face of it, they don't work when laid over the game as a whole. You see this all over the place, at all levels of play. Being good at the game doesn't mean you've got a better perspective in any way, after all.

Sadly, few folks are really willing to think of the whole game, not just their little corner.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 09 April 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

See: "Buff the Timber and Direwolf to help"

This is someone that, while not on the face of it wrong (buffing the Timberwolf WOULD improve clans in FW, no doubt) is pants-on-head absurdly crazy.

The Timberwolf is fine, by any metric. You don't buff your (arguably) strongest mech to improve balance, that's just silly, as it makes all the rest of the mechs even worse in comparison.

The "improving clan weapons" part, yeah, it wouldn't be as crazy as buffing the TBR, but still: That's power creeping. Buff IS mech structure. Buff clan weapons to compensate. Buff structure more. Buff weapons more.

Better to just reduce those structure quirks somewhat.

On the other hand, maybe Clan mechs did not need both a heat penalty AND an movement penalty for losing a side torso.

Maybe they REALLY didn't need to add the movement penalty at the same time Oprah showed up to hand out structure quirks to all IS mechs.


Maybe PGI could finally realize that the TBR & SCR should have 2 weapon mod slots like every other mech in the game.





They don't need to buff the TBR, but they should remove some of the nerfs they added.

[Mystere]

Unnerf Clan Mechs? It's not gonna happen if these people have anything to say about it:

[Gyrok]

Wintersdark, on 09 April 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

See: "Buff the Timber and Direwolf to help"

This is someone that, while not on the face of it wrong (buffing the Timberwolf WOULD improve clans in FW, no doubt) is pants-on-head absurdly crazy.

The Timberwolf is fine, by any metric. You don't buff your (arguably) strongest mech to improve balance, that's just silly, as it makes all the rest of the mechs even worse in comparison.

The "improving clan weapons" part, yeah, it wouldn't be as crazy as buffing the TBR, but still: That's power creeping. Buff IS mech structure. Buff clan weapons to compensate. Buff structure more. Buff weapons more.

Better to just reduce those structure quirks somewhat.



This is what bugs me. Not about the above referenced poster in particular, mind you, but speaking generally:

People who are really interested in one particular aspect of the game, and make balance recommendations from a very, very narrow perspective. Even if their ideas aren't stupid on the face of it, they don't work when laid over the game as a whole. You see this all over the place, at all levels of play. Being good at the game doesn't mean you've got a better perspective in any way, after all.

Sadly, few folks are really willing to think of the whole game, not just their little corner.

If the TW is the strongest mech, why are lots of T1 players sitting there telling people the only way the clans get 50/50 odds in that scenario is in a perfect vacuum running 12 TWs with brawler builds on a map that does not exist?

They outright tell you the BK is the best mech in the game...and you are arguing it is the TW?

You see...I am sorry, but I take all of their word over yours.

Ultimax, on 09 April 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

On the other hand, maybe Clan mechs did not need both a heat penalty AND an movement penalty for losing a side torso.

Maybe they REALLY didn't need to add the movement penalty at the same time Oprah showed up to hand out structure quirks to all IS mechs.


Maybe PGI could finally realize that the TBR & SCR should have 2 weapon mod slots like every other mech in the game.





They don't need to buff the TBR, but they should remove some of the nerfs they added.

OMG...somebody gets it!!

Wait, you are from reddit

Edited by Gyrok, 09 April 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimax, on 09 April 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

On the other hand, maybe Clan mechs did not need both a heat penalty AND an movement penalty for losing a side torso.

Maybe they REALLY didn't need to add the movement penalty at the same time Oprah showed up to hand out structure quirks to all IS mechs.

Maybe PGI could finally realize that the TBR & SCR should have 2 weapon mod slots like every other mech in the game.

They don't need to buff the TBR, but they should remove some of the nerfs they added.

There's no "other hand" here. I wasn't arguing. Just expressing annoyance at how often people just don't think through their suggestions, or make ones that are so absurdly biased or narrow-minded it makes my head hurt.

[Gas Guzzler]

So, lower the structure quirks a bit then and see where we end up?

But yeah I think those brawl timbers would have a chance on vitric forge.

Also, I think they should take the IS LPL and increase its duration to 0.85 seconds and range from 365 to 385-390 ish.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 April 2016 - 03:02 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

If the TW is the strongest mech, why are lots of T1 players sitting there telling people the only way the clans get 50/50 odds in that scenario is in a perfect vacuum running 12 TWs with brawler builds on a map that does not exist?

They outright tell you the BK is the best mech in the game...and you are arguing it is the TW?

You see...I am sorry, but I take all of their word over yours.

OMG...somebody gets it!!

Wait, you are from reddit

Gyrok, you're doing it again. For ****'s sake.

I'm not saying the Timberwolf is the best mech in the game, I'm saying it's (arguably) the best CLAN mech. Hence why buffing the TBR is stupid and narrow minded.

God damnit. Why do I have to have this argument with you every single time? I DON'T THINK CLANS ARE OP. I don't! I'm NOT ARGUING THAT. ****.

Seriously, Gyrok, you have some real issues here that you need to get past.


I was saying, in a round about way, exactly what Ultimax posted. That people need to look at the whole game, not just their corner. Yes, there's a definitely IS lean in CW now. But buffing the best clan mechs isn't the way to fix that, because it just breaks overall game balance more.

Faction wide changes are the way to go.

[Gyrok]

Wintersdark, on 09 April 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

There's no "other hand" here. I wasn't arguing. Just expressing annoyance at how often people just don't think through their suggestions, or make ones that are so absurdly biased or narrow-minded it makes my head hurt.

I can certainly agree with that.

As for the spud you quoted, nobody actually takes him seriously.

Ultimatum's post makes a lot of sense though.

In fact, I would even say revert the skill tree nerfs across the board (IS/Clan) by applying what they took as a base to the chassis itself to prevent the huge gap in new player/vet player mobility. Then remove the agility quirks outside a few specific examples that need it.

Other than that...he is on point, ST speed loss needs to go, and maybe adjust the small/medium class lasers a bit to give a tiny bit of the range back...

I think that does it...

EDIT: As for your second post...too many idiots on here assert the TW is the best mech in the game, and clans are OP. You were not clear in your assertion, and so I took you to mean exactly what you stated as it read.

Edited by Gyrok, 09 April 2016 - 03:06 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

ROFL didn't take clans long to find a new witch to hunt after killing the bj. Now it's the black Knight ROFL. Yes it has armor because clans have heck of a lot of firepower. This is how they're balancing the game. Get over it clan God mode is over.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2016 - 03:04 PM, said:

Other than that...he is on point, ST speed loss needs to go, and maybe adjust the small/medium class lasers a bit to give a tiny bit of the range back...

I think that does it...

I can't abide the ST speed loss because then I lose "Release the Kingfisher" ammo.

[Jman5]

I think most people are framing argument too narrowly for a Faction Warfare question because they're just looking at a 1:1 counter. A more reasonable argument would be whether clans have a +/- 10 tons response to the black knight and can they make up the difference later.

Let's say your opponent brings three black knights and a firestarter. Meanwhile you bring four 65 tonners. You fight from behind for 3 waves, but on that 4th wave it's 65 tons vs 35 tons giving you the advantage at the end. Or alternatively let's say you bring a couple of assaults your first two waves and medium/lights your last two waves. You overpower the first two waves of black knights, fight from behind wave 3, and fight on par wave 4.

Anyway I hope people don't pick apart my hypothetical too much. All I'm trying to say is that you don't have to counter the Black Knight, you have to counter the Drop Deck.

Also before anyone gets on my case, I am in favor of nerfing the black knight and several other Laser Vomit mechs out there.

Edited by Jman5, 09 April 2016 - 04:18 PM.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 09 April 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

There's no "other hand" here. I wasn't arguing. Just expressing annoyance at how often people just don't think through their suggestions, or make ones that are so absurdly biased or narrow-minded it makes my head hurt.

Sorry my salt is really for PGI - not you.

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

So, lower the structure quirks a bit then and see where we end up?

I like the structure quirks.

They let you run many IS mechs with XLs without being a liability.

They just didn't need to hand out IS buffs and Clan nerfs at the same time.

It should have been one step at a time, not everything at once.

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Also, I think they should take the IS LPL and increase its duration to 0.85 seconds and range from 365 to 385-390 ish.

IS LPL is powerful and that's fine imo.

At 0.85s duration, people will likely drop it for LLAS unless they are hardpoint starved - coupled with increasing the range further makes the two of these weapons way too similar.

3x LPls = 21 tons
3x LLAS = 15 tons

6 extra tons needs to have solid value.


Tone down the clan mech nerfs (XL movement penalty), give back some of the lost agility from skill tree nerfs (this was good to equalize noobs vs. vets but bad for faction balance overall).

The last piece of the puzzle for me, is to start unlocking equipment. It has not solved anything, it has only created balance problems.

> Allow locked "equipment" (DHS, JJs, Active Probe, etc) to be removed
> Allow customizing with Endo/Ferro



This would be valuable for a lot of clan mechs and then they would probably not even need much in the way of quirks outside of a few outliers.

Edited by Ultimax, 09 April 2016 - 04:24 PM.

[Vxheous]

Jman5, on 09 April 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

I think most people are framing argument too narrowly for a Faction Warfare question because they're just looking at a 1:1 counter. A more reasonable argument would be whether clans have a +/- 10 tons response to the black knight and can they make up the difference later.

Let's say your opponent brings three black knights and a firestarter. Meanwhile you bring four 65 tonners. You fight from behind for 3 waves, but on that 4th wave it's 65 tons vs 35 tons giving you the advantage at the end. Or alternatively let's say you bring a couple of assaults your first two waves and medium/lights your last two waves. You overpower the first two waves of black knights, fight from behind wave 3, and fight on par wave 4.

Anyway I hope people don't pick apart my hypothetical too much. All I'm trying to say is that you don't have to counter the Black Knight, you have to counter the Drop Deck.

Also before anyone gets on my case, I am in favor of nerfing the black knight and several other Laser Vomit mechs out there.

We all know that Skill being equal on both sides, 3 Waves of Black Knights are going to chew through almost all 4 Waves of Ebon Jaguar/Hellbringers before the 35 IS Tonner comes into play. That leaves 12 Firestarters on clean up duty on what's left of the Ebon Jaguar/Hellbringer wave 4.

Edit: This is coming from someone that has run 3 Black Knight + 35 Tonner as a dropdeck last time I was in IS.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 09 April 2016 - 04:27 PM.

[Gyrok]

Monkey Lover, on 09 April 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

ROFL didn't take clans long to find a new witch to hunt after killing the bj. Now it's the black Knight ROFL. Yes it has armor because clans have heck of a lot of firepower. This is how they're balancing the game. Get over it clan God mode is over.

58 alpha BK versus 54 alpha TW.

You were saying?

[Zoid]

I think the issue actually lies with IS pulse lasers and the Black Knight can just exploit those like crazy. Human reaction time is about 0.25 seconds, so with lag and twist speed those things are landing 50+ point alphas exactly where they want to every single time. There's no amount of twisting that can spread that damage.

I think these things need to get their damage, heat, and cooldown all cut in half. The Black Knight feels too strong right now mostly because if you look at it for even half a second, you're going to start losing components (unless you're at 100% still). Even being at 100%, you look at it twice and you've lost half your 'mech.

Simply put, a weapon that can deal pinpoint damage without any defense should not exist in MechWarrior. Everything else either has a travel time or a long enough duration so that you can spread the damage out.