51 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

If the issue is duration then why are you talking about damage heat and cooldown? How bout just increasing the LPL duration, and give it some range to compensate?

[Vxheous]

Zoid, on 09 April 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

I think the issue actually lies with IS pulse lasers and the Black Knight can just exploit those like crazy. Human reaction time is about 0.25 seconds, so with lag and twist speed those things are landing 50+ point alphas exactly where they want to every single time. There's no amount of twisting that can spread that damage.

I think these things need to get their damage, heat, and cooldown all cut in half. The Black Knight feels too strong right now mostly because if you look at it for even half a second, you're going to start losing components (unless you're at 100% still). Even being at 100%, you look at it twice and you've lost half your 'mech.

Simply put, a weapon that can deal pinpoint damage without any defense should not exist in MechWarrior. Everything else either has a travel time or a long enough duration so that you can spread the damage out.

IS LPL is for sure a huge culprit to the resurgence of many of the IS mechs. People like to complain about range quirks, but the LPL is most affected by burn duration quirks. Having a 15% laser duration quirk brings the IS LPL down to .56s burn time, which pretty much allows you to put all that damage to one single component (as a laser).

[Barantor]

Here I am remembering when IS LPL were probably the worst weapon in the game and it was because of the heat and duration.

Make the duration bigger on IS LPL and hopefully this new PPC buff will help a little and you might see a little more variety.

Of course, I wouldn't mind if you couldn't take more than one of the same chassis in CW...

[Monkey Lover]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

58 alpha BK versus 54 alpha TW.

You were saying?

What are you talking about? alpha of what? 2lpl 6 med = 68 alpha no ghost heat.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 April 2016 - 07:03 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Monkey Lover, on 09 April 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

What are you talking about? alpha of what? 2lpl 6 med = 68 alpha no ghost heat.

While that is true, that build is incredibly hot, the 58 damage BK build is more sustainable.

[Monkey Lover]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

While that is true, that build is incredibly hot, the 58 damage BK build is more sustainable.

I agree is very hot i run it on my ebon but then again it also cools off faster than any IS mech i own when its packed full of 2 slot DHS.

All he said was alpha im still guessing we were talking lasers and a timber would murder a black night with srms/spl+jj.

Any range you pick to fight at a timber would win. The only way a black night would win is if the timber picks the wrong weapons for the range they end up fighting at. (pilot skill be equal)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dabf32f60c09a9b
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4d78e889efe58b9

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 April 2016 - 09:13 PM.

[Gyrok]

Monkey Lover, on 09 April 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

What are you talking about? alpha of what? 2lpl 6 med = 68 alpha no ghost heat.

BK with 58 alpha and 30% cooling efficiency

TW with 68 alpha and 29% cooling efficiency

The difference is, with a nerfed heat cap, the TW cannot alpha twice back to back, and the duration is double that of the BK.

Besides...no one in their right mind would run that TW build...not when the EBJ does it better

Even then, the EBJ is a glass cannon...and the BK has absurd structure by comparison to either one.

The 68 alpha build is a bit of a joke to be honest. To be able to alpha twice, you only get 2 LPL + 4 ERML, and even then you redline the second shot. A BK will get significantly more damage out, to single components, significantly faster than any clan mech.

It is a perfect storm of issues:

1.) Massive structure quirks

2.) High mobility

3.) Great torso twist

4.) Great hit boxes

5.) Manageable heat efficiency

6.) Insanely short burn duration on lasers.

You cannot have all your cake and eat it too...

You are going to have to give something.

Your options:

1.) roll back some clan nerfs (preferable) and keep the IS tanky flavor

2.) Nerf some IS mechs (not preferable) and go back to the "push all the things to middle" mantra that is boring as hell.

What would YOU do if the only option at all of any kind was to choose one of those???

[Monkey Lover]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

BK with 58 alpha and 30% cooling efficiency

TW with 68 alpha and 29% cooling efficiency

The difference is, with a nerfed heat cap, the TW cannot alpha twice back to back, and the duration is double that of the BK.

Besides...no one in their right mind would run that TW build...not when the EBJ does it better

Even then, the EBJ is a glass cannon...and the BK has absurd structure by comparison to either one.

The 68 alpha build is a bit of a joke to be honest. To be able to alpha twice, you only get 2 LPL + 4 ERML, and even then you redline the second shot. A BK will get significantly more damage out, to single components, significantly faster than any clan mech.

It is a perfect storm of issues:

1.) Massive structure quirks

2.) High mobility

3.) Great torso twist

4.) Great hit boxes

5.) Manageable heat efficiency

6.) Insanely short burn duration on lasers.

You cannot have all your cake and eat it too...

You are going to have to give something.

Your options:

1.) roll back some clan nerfs (preferable) and keep the IS tanky flavor

2.) Nerf some IS mechs (not preferable) and go back to the "push all the things to middle" mantra that is boring as hell.

What would YOU do if the only option at all of any kind was to choose one of those???

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dabf32f60c09a9b




#1 structure means very little and in most cases is removed by clan 1 ton target computers with the increased crits. Not even counting the range increase.

#2 Helpful but is the same for a lot of mechs on both sides

#3-4-5 same as the timer but is still missing JJ to be really great

#6 biggest clan lie of all time. Spread out of the forums day after day. Duration is about the same when you take into account the extra damage on clan weapons. A 11dmg er lasers should burn a little longer than a 9 dmg er laser.

options:

Buff low end clan/is mechs some more then balance weapons
or
Nerf both high end IS/Clan mechs then balance weapons

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 April 2016 - 09:44 PM.

[Homeskilit]

Gyrok, on 09 April 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

Your options

If isXL = cXL
Than we can remove structure quirks

[Aresye]

Monkey Lover, on 09 April 2016 - 08:52 PM, said:

I agree is very hot i run it on my ebon but then again it also cools off faster than any IS mech i own when its packed full of 2 slot DHS.

The rate of heat dissipation is actually not that important when you're talking about poke builds, such as the Black Knight and your EBJ build. You generally have all the time in the world to cool behind cover.

Take that small advantage out of the picture and the Black Knight is better in every way.

- It has structure quirks. The EBJ has none.
- It spits out 58 damage in 0.77 seconds, compared to the EBJ (which takes 1.15 seconds). More damage per tick.
- It has better hitboxes. The EBJ is pretty much a glass cannon that's all CT.
- It has 20% torso turn rate quirks. The EBJ has none.

The EBJ's only advantage over the Black Knight is hardpoint location, however it isn't as big of an advantage as people think it is as the hardpoints are ABOVE the cockpit, requiring you to expose your giant upper torso in order to see what you're shooting at.

If your opponent took a Black Knight for a 1v1, and you took that laser vomit EBJ, I can tell you exactly what would happen:
1. The Black Knight would use cover on the approach to negate your range advantage.
2. If cover was not possible, the BLK pilot can easily twist away damage and absorb a couple of your alphas as it's closing on you, thanks to torso twist speed quirks and superior hitboxes.
3. Once the BLK is in range, it will alpha 58 damage straight to your left torso where your main energy mounts are, which you cannot twist away due to having poor hitboxes, and the fact it's being done in 0.77 seconds (aka: very quick).
4. The next alpha will finish off your left torso entirely, and do an appreciable amount of damage to your CT armor in the process. Now you have a speed penalty in addition to losing some of your truedubs in the engine, and will run hotter and slower.
5. With over half your weapons gone, the BLK will allow itself to cool a bit, and then stagger fire its LPLs and MLs until you're dead, and there won't be anything you can do about it, as you have neither the weapons nor the armor to win that engagement.

[meteorol]

Lol.
From the second peef said clans would have low chances of stopping a 12 BK rush i was just waiting for Gyrok to post this as new fuel to the fire of his neverending crusade.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Black Knight is probably the strongest heavy mech in the game right about now.

The thing has speed, firepower, and armor all in one and loads of it.

You can even run it with a decent sized standard engine and still get all those structure quirks, entirely negating any IS XL vulnerabilities.

Even with an XL I've calculated before that with optimal builds a Black Knight can kill a Timber Wolf's CT before that Timber Wolf can take out the Black Knight's Side Torso without any twisting involved.

A Timber Wolf, or any Clan heavy for that matter, gets smashed by a Black Knight if its in range and both are at decent health. Those IS pulse lasers combined with all the quirks and standard engine mean it can just cut its way through enemies before they can react, then twist around enough to protect itself.

Example STD engine Black Knight build here:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6d67dea834c38b0

Edited by Dakota1000, 10 April 2016 - 01:46 AM.

[Karmen Baric]

This game isn't played in vacuum, you cant say in this one specific situation and if all these conditions are met this is the best Heavy in the game hence its OP.

What if the mechs were 800m from each other, what if the mechs is standing above or directly below you, what if they were 50m from each other, what if its on hot map like Vitric Forge, then the BK loses, so does that mean other mechs like SRM/pulse Timber is OP if close up on a hot map?

NERF JJ Timberwolf due to being OP close up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Karmen Baric, 10 April 2016 - 02:28 AM.

[Pjwned]

Ultimax, on 09 April 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

On the other hand, maybe Clan mechs did not need both a heat penalty AND an movement penalty for losing a side torso.

Yes they do.

Quote

Maybe they REALLY didn't need to add the movement penalty at the same time Oprah showed up to hand out structure quirks to all IS mechs.

That doesn't mean the justified engine nerf shouldn't exist.

Quote

Maybe PGI could finally realize that the TBR & SCR should have 2 weapon mod slots like every other mech in the game.

I would rather see all mechs have 0 weapon mod slots, because weapon modules are stupid.

Quote

They don't need to buff the TBR, but they should remove some of the nerfs they added.

Nah, overdone IS quirks can go instead.

[Gyrok]

Homeskilit, on 09 April 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

If isXL = cXL
Than we can remove structure quirks

I want to keep structure quirks, personally.

That is not what this is about.

This is about getting things to be equal. If the IS players want to nerf their mechs instead of rolling back some of the nerfs to clans. Then that is what they want to do. I prefer to buff TTK for both sides by increasing the number of mechs with structure quirks for IS, and rolling back some agility nerfs, and the fall off nerf that was ridiculous.

[redacted]

Edited by Coryphee, 11 April 2016 - 06:40 AM.

[Gyrok]

meteorol, on 10 April 2016 - 01:20 AM, said:

Lol.
From the second peef said clans would have low chances of stopping a 12 BK rush i was just waiting for Gyrok to post this as new fuel to the fire of his neverending crusade.

It is true...in what way can any combination of clan mechs stop 3 waves of BKs?

Edited by Gyrok, 10 April 2016 - 06:15 AM.

[kapusta11]

So a group of people who play like pugs had their asses handed to them by a well coordinated competitive team? What a shock.

[Gyrok]

kapusta11, on 10 April 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:

So a group of people who play like pugs had their asses handed to them by a well coordinated competitive team? What a shock.

Oh really...that is entirely the issue?

Because atlas walls were never a thing in CW, or the stalker wall, or the mauler wall, or the light rush, so now the BK wall is certainly not a thing because you are trying to discredit the topic?

[kapusta11]

Gyrok, on 10 April 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

Oh really...that is entirely the issue?

Because atlas walls were never a thing in CW, or the stalker wall, or the mauler wall, or the light rush, so now the BK wall is certainly not a thing because you are trying to discredit the topic?

They were using LRM Lights. LRM Lights!

You really expect PGI to balance BKs against LRM lights? We all know that's not going to happen.

[Aresye]

Karmen Baric, on 10 April 2016 - 02:27 AM, said:

This game isn't played in vacuum, you cant say in this one specific situation and if all these conditions are met this is the best Heavy in the game hence its OP.

With the exception of the occasional brawl or super long range fight, the overwhelming majority of battles in this game are fought between 200-600m, which fits perfectly into the Black Knight's effective range.

The Black Knight works for almost any map and any situation (including Vitric Forge). It doesn't rely on a bunch of variables to be met in order to do well.