51 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Barantor, on 09 April 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

Of course, I wouldn't mind if you couldn't take more than one of the same chassis in CW...

I would, based purely on principle. There are just too many crybabies playing this game who realize going to momma PGI actually works if you start a concierto with fellow crybabies.

Edited by Mystere, 10 April 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[Mystere]

meteorol, on 10 April 2016 - 01:20 AM, said:

Lol.
From the second peef said clans would have low chances of stopping a 12 BK rush i was just waiting for Gyrok to post this as new fuel to the fire of his neverending crusade.

I think you meant "Jihad". The "Crusade" moniker was taken up by the anti-Clan forces decades ago.

[Pjwned]

kapusta11, on 10 April 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

They were using LRM Lights. LRM Lights!

You really expect PGI to balance BKs against LRM lights? We all know that's not going to happen.

Well, when you not only see significant quirks on mechs, but also teams of players using said mechs en masse (i.e 36 copies of the same mech between a team) then it tends to indicate the mech might need some looking at. I understand that coordinated teams can field a bunch of the same mech and that doesn't necessarily mean the mech is too good (such as this video, which although doesn't really say much about King Crabs, it does say a lot about why CW is a shitfest) and that correlation is not causation, but it's still a significant indicator that something(s) need(s) to be looked at.

linked video said:

Spoiler

Of course, the problem is twofold in that CW is a terrible mode with bad maps that really put a spotlight on balance issues, and that simply looking at 1 chassis isn't good enough since quirks are a monstrosity on nearly every mech in the game.

Edited by Pjwned, 10 April 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[Pjwned]

Barantor, on 09 April 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

Of course, I wouldn't mind if you couldn't take more than one of the same chassis in CW...

I wouldn't be vehemently opposed to that, but that sort of restriction shouldn't be needed and I think other solutions (that actually aim to fix things, instead of more band aid fixes) are far better.

[Monkey Lover]

Aresye, on 10 April 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

The rate of heat dissipation is actually not that important when you're talking about poke builds, such as the Black Knight and your EBJ build. You generally have all the time in the world to cool behind cover.

Take that small advantage out of the picture and the Black Knight is better in every way.

- It has structure quirks. The EBJ has none.
- It spits out 58 damage in 0.77 seconds, compared to the EBJ (which takes 1.15 seconds). More damage per tick.
- It has better hitboxes. The EBJ is pretty much a glass cannon that's all CT.
- It has 20% torso turn rate quirks. The EBJ has none.

The EBJ's only advantage over the Black Knight is hardpoint location, however it isn't as big of an advantage as people think it is as the hardpoints are ABOVE the cockpit, requiring you to expose your giant upper torso in order to see what you're shooting at.

If your opponent took a Black Knight for a 1v1, and you took that laser vomit EBJ, I can tell you exactly what would happen:
1. The Black Knight would use cover on the approach to negate your range advantage.
2. If cover was not possible, the BLK pilot can easily twist away damage and absorb a couple of your alphas as it's closing on you, thanks to torso twist speed quirks and superior hitboxes.
3. Once the BLK is in range, it will alpha 58 damage straight to your left torso where your main energy mounts are, which you cannot twist away due to having poor hitboxes, and the fact it's being done in 0.77 seconds (aka: very quick).
4. The next alpha will finish off your left torso entirely, and do an appreciable amount of damage to your CT armor in the process. Now you have a speed penalty in addition to losing some of your truedubs in the engine, and will run hotter and slower.
5. With over half your weapons gone, the BLK will allow itself to cool a bit, and then stagger fire its LPLs and MLs until you're dead, and there won't be anything you can do about it, as you have neither the weapons nor the armor to win that engagement.

You talk like the ebon jag would stay in one place as it allow the blacknight to close the gap? Why would a faster mech allow this? If the blacknight can get into range its because he is a better pilot.

If u want to say range means nothing than I think an ebon with 2xac10/spl build might be the way to go something where you can over heat the blacknight with a lot of pressure. The ebon jag is going to have to use his speed and keep the large alpha from coring one side.

Over all blacknight should win its almost an assault mech and i never said i would pick a ebon jag to fight a blacknight. I just said that was the build i have used on my ebon. I would pick a timber to fight a blacknight. I would even take a grasshopper over a blacknight. If I really had my pick I take some type of 4xac5 mech as they kill them easy. But really at this point were talking who has a better build to fight another build. Not what mech is OP.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 10 April 2016 - 11:41 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Mystere, on 09 April 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

Unnerf Clan Mechs? It's not gonna happen if these people have anything to say about it:

You mean Victorian Artists, with an extreme pro Christian bent ?

[Catra Lanis]

Zoid, on 09 April 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

I think the issue actually lies with IS pulse lasers and the Black Knight can just exploit those like crazy. Human reaction time is about 0.25 seconds, so with lag and twist speed those things are landing 50+ point alphas exactly where they want to every single time. There's no amount of twisting that can spread that damage.

I think these things need to get their damage, heat, and cooldown all cut in half. The Black Knight feels too strong right now mostly because if you look at it for even half a second, you're going to start losing components (unless you're at 100% still). Even being at 100%, you look at it twice and you've lost half your 'mech.

Simply put, a weapon that can deal pinpoint damage without any defense should not exist in MechWarrior. Everything else either has a travel time or a long enough duration so that you can spread the damage out.

What about mechs that need LPL to be even half decent? If the Black Knight is OP, I'm not saying it is, but if so, then it would make more sense to look at what can be done with it as an isolated case instead of punishing a bunch of other mechs.

[C E Dwyer]

Faction Warfare is never going to be the place Balance takes place in, not any longer.

comp play and E-sport team play is where choices will be made from now on.

F.W like it or not, and I sit nuetral on it, while wanting it to be better, is just P.G.I's unwanted step child, and once P3 is out the way, you'll see no major change in the way it plays.

By all means ignore me, and carry on wasting your own time though

[MischiefSC]

I've said for the long time the ISLPL is too short a burn time. This is what creates the trade issues. Clan laser weapons are in a solid place; longer burn but better range works out well and is a solid balance -

right up until you hit IS LPLs with quirks and modules. With even a bit of lag this makes LPLs near hitscan PPFLD, which was the issue with PPCs back when they were 1600m/s or so.

Extend LPL burn times, a small range bump works because this lets them still be the primary competition for Clan laservomit, which would otherwise win out on range advantage.

You extend LPLs a quarter of a second or so and you turn the BKs trade with a Clan laservomit mech into something a little more Rules of Queensbury, at which point ST = Dead is a bigger issue than ST = Slower/hotter.

Or to put in this context; if you had a BK with a LL/ML build or all MPLs vs TBR of choice (say 6 CMPLs on a TBR) how does it play out? With the longer face-time and a more comparable damage/tic with Clan weapons your hitbox advantages slide back into balance with the ST = Death balance.

Cuz this isn't a 1x thing nor just a BK vs TBR thing. It is going to come up with every single new (and updated) laser-heavy mech the game puts out. ISLPLs are too quick. Hell, at 0.88 on an ISLPL some people might even try PPCs with the new changes because IS LPLs are no longer near-PPFLD effective.

BK is a solid 75 ton laservomit mech. Good enough to stand up with a TBR, which is a new thing for the last 2 years. The problem isn't the otherwise moderate quirks on it, the problem is this one specific weapon - which was also the problem on the BJ, and every other IS laservomit mech that people complain about.

[Gyrok]

IS LPL is pretty much a root problem...I do not think anyone disputes that at this point...

[MischiefSC]

So before we try to whack-a-mole lets see about getting the LPL a burn time increase and small range increase to keep it functional for the tonnage vs LLs. IS mechs need ST structure buffs to offset XL differences; I'd be happy with just a blanket % value to make STs comparble to CTs. Clan XLs are still smaller and less vulnerable but between that and ST loss on Clans having some drawbacks that'd be pretty close to good and at least STANDARDIZED.

Another issue we have with quirks (which are no substitute for balance) is the lack of standardization making significant meta swings for IS mechs with no real logic. The point of structure buffs is to offset better overall range for Clan weapons and durability of CXL. When you make arm and CT quirks and leg quirks you take that in a different direction. I can sorta see leg structure quirks on mechs with big legs or particularly vulnerable legs but otherwise do that and call it good. Possibly structure quirks for mechs with all their weapons in the arms but that sort of thing in lieu of weapon quirks.

Standardize structure quirks for the IS, have small tweaks to structure quirks on a case by case basis (but SMALL) and keep weapon quirks to 10% or less.

Make up the difference in overall weapon quirks.

Then do the same thing with Clan sub-par mechs. Honestly? Making sub-par Clan mechs even a *little* more viable would end up as a nerf to the Clans in CW because you'd have a rise in terribads taking terribad mechs and saying 'Now my LRMs get a 5% range bonus, 4x Summoner LRM boat deck here I come!'

Oh, the LBX quirks for Clans. 'My LB5X Kit Fox has a 10% cooldown bonus! It's AMAZING now!'

Careful what you wish for.

Balance IS LPLs to extend burn time but buff range to keep it viable vs LL.

Normalize structure quirks for IS for what they are - balance for CXL.

Normalize quirks for sub-par Clan mechs vs comparable IS mechs.

Bro-bones, beers all around.

[Celtic Warrior IS]

Things would be more balanced if they would give the clans back a proper HS. As it is now with the longer burn times and the spread out damage they do they still create too much heat. At least give the clans back a way to manage that heat.