54 replies to this topic

[Hound of War]

To start I want to say that I only play clan. That said, I was just wondering what this game could have been had we had a succession war era. Imagine the CW,excuse me FW is now the new word,with house against house and merc units thrown in just for fun. Balance discussions? No need as your lazors are just as good as mine. We could have had 5 factions + mercs fighting for the IS and not just IS vs Clan! We could have had a Battletech game instead of MWO:" a game set in someting slightly resembleing the Battletech universe... sometimes". Sadly we never got the Succession War (although 95% of the IS mechs we have are from that timeline) , we never got merc units out there trying to make a name for them selves, and we never got real Battletech fanboy stuff. I imagine its far too late for any of this to be corrected, as many of us have invested too mutch in our nerffed out clan mechs. PGI you really did make a game that looks like battletech but ya also made an epic fail in releasing the clan far too early. I for one would take a trade in for my clan gear in exchange for a roll back to the succession war, even though I would miss my beloved SCR terribly.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Too many people want to play as Clans. If you left them out, then the clammor would have been non-stop until they were released.

And I am one of the few people who think it was a very good idea to make the Clan Mechs unbuffed to the point where an Inner Sphere Mech is just as fun to drive as a Clan Mech. Far too many selfish people want Clan Mechs to be better and more fun than IS Mechs because they want new/unpaying players to use crappy IS Mechs while the paying/experienced players get to use better, more fun Clan Mechs to wreck face.

Admit it - it's more fun to be a faster, more powerful Hero shooting at multiple bad guys than it is to be one slow, weak member of a baddie gang who's trying to gang-up on a Hero.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 April 2016 - 08:40 AM.

[Khobai]

every game in mechwarrior franchise has clan mechs. it always has. thats one of the draws of the franchise.

not having clan mechs at all wouldve been a bigger mistake than not balancing clan mechs properly.

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Far too many selfish people want Clan Mechs to be better and more fun than IS Mechs

Because clan tech SHOULD be better. Clans have better technology because instead of completely blowing eachother up in unrestricted warfare they settled their differences with combat trials and their darwinistic struggle made them stronger. While IS spent years blasting eachother back to the dark ages and paved the way for comstar to monopolize/stagnate technological development. But IS crybabies want IS to have tech thats as good as Clan tech even though it completely contradicts the lore?

People wanted 12v10. That wouldve allowed clan tech to be approximately 20% better than IS tech. Obviously clan tech shouldnt be 50% better like it was in TT, even jordan weissman admitted making clan tech that much better was a mistake, but 20% better wouldve been perfectly acceptable.

Its PGI that completely screwed up IS vs Clan balance. They went in a direction NO ONE wanted. And they did it for a stupid reason because their matchmaker couldnt handle 12v10. Except their matchmaker cant even handle 12v12! Practically every game one of the teams gets rolled like 12-3.

If they had gone with 12v10 the game wouldve turned out much better balanced. IS wouldnt have needed such ridiculous quirks to balance things. And theres plenty of ways they couldve encouraged people to play IS despite clan mechs being individually stronger... like actually promoting MWO as a team game and making rewards based off how your entire team played rather than your individual accomplishments.

Edited by Khobai, 08 April 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Prosperity Park, on 08 April 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Too many people want to play as Clans. If you left them out, then the clammor would have been non-stop until they were released.

And I am one of the few people who think it was a very good idea to make the Clan Mechs unbuffed to the point where an Inner Sphere Mech is just as fun to drive as a Clan Mech. Far too many selfish people want Clan Mechs to be better and more fun than IS Mechs because they want new/unpaying players to use crappy IS Mechs while the paying/experienced players get to use better, more fun Clan Mechs to wreck face.

Admit it - it's more fun to be a faster, more powerful Hero shooting at multiple bad guys than it is to be one slow, weak member of a baddie gang who's trying to gang-up on a Hero.

I agree, fixing the mistakes from the TT game and the issue with Clams being massively OP was a good idea and a step in making this game better IMO. Not the other way around like many seem to think...

[Damia Savon]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

every game in mechwarrior franchise has clan mechs. it always has. thats one of the draws of the franchise.

not having clan mechs at all wouldve been a bigger mistake than not balancing clan mechs properly.



Because clan tech SHOULD be better. Clans have better technology. While IS spent years blasting eachother back to the dark ages and paved the way for comstar to monopolize/stagnate technological development.

People wanted 12v10. That wouldve allowed clan tech to be approximately 20% better than IS tech.

Its PGI that completely screwed up IS vs Clan balance. They went in a direction NO ONE wanted.

Clans were crap on the TT and crap in Mechwarrior. The best Battletech was Pre-Clan.

You kind of forget the Clans started with a minimal population of mostly battlemech pilots and a limited resource base. They landed on resource poor worlds and then they engaged in their own version of the succession wars.

Then you have Kerensky the sociopath running off with 800 people and turning everyone of his dad's ideas on its head. If his dad hadn't been dead, he would have cut off his son's head and shat in the stump. But these 800 people turned into magical Mary Sue super warriors and came back to engage in even more mindless destruction.

Then Clan Wolverine was annhilated because they didn't kiss their sociopathic leader's ***. Then it was the Widowmakers and so forth.

Despite all their "honor" the Clan's have been just as wantonly violent and destructive in their early years as the succession wars. "Realistically" the Clans should be a bunch of nerf herders on the edge of the galaxy and not a super technological force of doom. Their starting population, numbers and lack of a real tech base don't support it.

Given the insane Clan tech superiority 10 vs 12 is too generous. 5 vs 12 is much more realistic.

Personally I am rather happy at how PGI went. The only thing better would be tossing the Clans in the trash like the TT is desperately trying to do.

[Khobai]

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Clans were crap on the TT and crap in Mechwarrior. The best Battletech was Pre-Clan.

Except the mechwarrior franchise likely never wouldve been successful without the clans.

the mechwarrior 2 expansions sold so well because they were clan centric.

if they did things your way there would be no mechwarrior games.

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Given the insane Clan tech superiority 10 vs 12 is too generous. 5 vs 12 is much more realistic.

Uh no. clan tech was ~50% better in TT. a 70 ton clan mech was roughly a match for an atlas.

Later on when the Atlas got a 3052 upgrade the timberwolf was roughly an even match for an Atlas.

And again 10v12 wouldve been IDEAL for MWO because its 2 stars vs 3 lances and allows clans to retain a 20% tech advantage.

PGI really screwed that up.

Edited by Khobai, 08 April 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[ChapeL]

I wonder how many people would have played more had the game been set in 3015.

Edited by ChapeL, 08 April 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

ChapeL, on 08 April 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

I wonder how many people would have played more had the game been set in 3015.

At least concerns about TTK would not exist. Slightly more action than watching musketeers line up against each other.

[Revis Volek]

ChapeL, on 08 April 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

I wonder how many people would have played more had the game been set in 3015.

I would have played less, no thanks.

[Khobai]

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I wonder how many people would have played more had the game been set in 3015.

I wouldnt have played at all.

again mechwarrior was successful game franchise because of the clan invasion. thats what people remembered most from battletech. And its what the franchise was built around for many years.

remember kesmai/electronic arts tried to do a 3025 mechwarrior mmog? what happened to that... it failed miserably and was cancelled halfway through beta development.

3025 battletech doesnt sell. period.

mechwarrior games need clan mechs because its what the people want.

Edited by Khobai, 08 April 2016 - 11:41 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

ChapeL, on 08 April 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

I wonder how many people would have played more had the game been set in 3015.

Third and fourth Succession wars is all I play, except here

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

I wouldnt have played at all.

again mechwarrior was successful game franchise because of the clan invasion. thats what people remembered most from battletech. And its what the franchise was built around for many years.

rememeber kesmai/electronic arts tried to do a 3025 mechwarrior mmog? what happened to that... it failed miserably and was cancelled halfway through beta development.

3025 battletech doesnt sell. period.

mechwarrior games need clan mechs because its what the people want.

Well clans arriving killed our group, with its power leap crap, was zero need for it, the clans could have been done so much better

[Khobai]

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Well clans arriving killed our group, with its power leap crap, was zero need for it, the clans could have been done so much better

And the problem isnt the fact clans were added.

The problem is PGI added them poorly with no real plan and then tried to balance them by the seat of their pants.

Other mechwarrior games added clans properly.

[Monodominant]

Yea in lore something is amazing why didn't they do that...

I really can't imagine a single reason...

Like take any other pvp game... people love being the weak guy...

Oh wait...

Even in games with Jedi and Sith, somehow classes are balanced even though it breaks lore. I am sure IS pilots would have loved it if their mechs were **** just cause they got 2 more people in a team...

[Khobai]

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I still do not know why you think Can players should have more fun than IS players.

Except I never once said clan players should have more fun than IS players.

Having better tech does not equate to having more fun. That is a flawed and completely wrong way of thinking.

Starcraft2 proves how wrong that thinking is. Protoss are not more fun than Zerg because they have higher tech. Different races just play different.

Same with Clan and IS. While Clan players focus more on individual accolade and personal honor. IS players would focus more on teamwork, unit cohesion, and completing the objective as a unit.

And the way you would accomplish that is by giving IS mechs equipment like C3 networks which would allow them to work better as a team than Clans. IS mechs would have better situational awareness and be better able to communicate information to their teammates. Making them a more cohesive fighting force.

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Like take any other pvp game... people love being the weak guy...

Um I can list countless games where people did in fact play the weak guy and had immense fun doing so. Take aliens vs predator for example. Aliens were typically much weaker than humans or predators but people still played them because they could do things neither humans or predators couldnt do (like climb on walls/ceilings).

Even though Clan tech is superior to IS tech doesnt mean IS still cant do things Clans cant do. That is the key fact that you dont seem to understand. C3 networks for example are one such advantage IS had over clans. Even though C3 networks were lowtech by clan standards, the concept of networking mechs and working together as a cohesive unit was foreign to clan pilots because they competed with eachother for kills/personal achivements.

There are tons of ways 12v10 couldve been balanced asymmetrically so that players would still want to play both clans and IS. Again that was a failing on PGI's behalf...

Edited by Khobai, 08 April 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[Monodominant]

Different is not the same as superior.

Terrans play different than Protoss and Zerg but they are not better.

You are saying clan mechs should just be better.

[Khobai]

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You are saying clan mechs should just be better.

nope thats not at all what I said.

what I said was individually clan mechs should be stronger in 1v1 situations. but IS mechs should work better as a unit and be given equipment like C3 which helps them work better as a unit.

IS should have to rely on greater numbers and better teamwork (and better equipment to promote teamwork) to overcome the clan tech disparity. just like they had to do in the lore...

that is the essence of asymmetrical balance. equal but different.

Edited by Khobai, 08 April 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Except I never once said clan players should have more fun than IS players.

Having better tech does not equate to having more fun. That is a flawed and completely wrong way of thinking.

Starcraft2 proves how wrong that thinking is. *snip*

Just... no. Each Zergling isn't controlled by a player. Bad analogy is bad.

[Mystere]

Prosperity Park, on 08 April 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Far too many selfish people want Clan Mechs to be better and more fun than IS Mechs because they want new/unpaying players to use crappy IS Mechs while the paying/experienced players get to use better, more fun Clan Mechs to wreck face.

Admit it - it's more fun to be a faster, more powerful Hero shooting at multiple bad guys than it is to be one slow, weak member of a baddie gang who's trying to gang-up on a Hero.

That is a gross misrepresentation. Enough said. <smh>

Prosperity Park, on 08 April 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

I still do not know why you think Can players should have more fun than IS players.

Still more of the same. <smh>

Edited by Mystere, 08 April 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

Because clan tech SHOULD be better. Clans have better technology because instead of completely blowing eachother up in unrestricted warfare they settled their differences with combat trials and their darwinistic struggle made them stronger. While IS spent years blasting eachother back to the dark ages and paved the way for comstar to monopolize/stagnate technological development. But IS crybabies want IS to have tech thats as good as Clan tech even though it completely contradicts the lore?

People wanted 12v10. That wouldve allowed clan tech to be approximately 20% better than IS tech. Obviously clan tech shouldnt be 50% better like it was in TT, even jordan weissman admitted making clan tech that much better was a mistake, but 20% better wouldve been perfectly acceptable.

Its PGI that completely screwed up IS vs Clan balance. They went in a direction NO ONE wanted. And they did it for a stupid reason because their matchmaker couldnt handle 12v10. Except their matchmaker cant even handle 12v12! Practically every game one of the teams gets rolled like 12-3.

If they had gone with 12v10 the game wouldve turned out much better balanced. IS wouldnt have needed such ridiculous quirks to balance things. And theres plenty of ways they couldve encouraged people to play IS despite clan mechs being individually stronger... like actually promoting MWO as a team game and making rewards based off how your entire team played rather than your individual accomplishments.

Nah! It was absolutely totally 100% without a doubt due to very selfish Clan players.

On a less confrontational note (), as you said, there were many ways 10v12 could have been achieved. But the total lack of imagination/creativity -- or capability, or worse competence -- on PGI's part, along with a largely unimaginative player base, caused MWO to be where it is today.


<See PP, I too know how to paint with a giant brush.>

Edited by Mystere, 08 April 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[M3 SABLE]

At this point, I think Inner Sphere mechs are way stronger than clan mechs.
Faction Warfare is really hard, especially on maps like Grim Portico where the structure of the map, forces these exclusive brawls that are totally dominated by Inner Sphere.

However, I play Clans because I like the faction and mech design. I will play it even if it is nerfed even more.