40 replies to this topic

[Not A Real RAbbi]

El Bandito, on 10 April 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

One word that really miffed me is Foxtrot. Why not just call it Fox? There are no other words in that alphabet list that can be confused with Fox.

And I like to say Beta and Gamma for "B" and "G" cause of playing MW2 Clan campaign for too long.

Box
{LT-MOB-25}
Docks
Hawks
Jocks
Locks
(k)nocks
Pox
Rocks
Socks
Walks

For starters, anyway. Sure, some of it may not make perfect sense for non-native speakers of modern American English (can't speak to PROPER English, of course, because I don't speak it). On the other hand, a LOT of NATO and various other military allies of USA/NATO ARE NOT native speakers of, or even all that familiar with, the modern American English from which those words are mostly taken. And therefore, Foxtrot stands. Why? Well, BOXES don't trot. Nor really do {LT-MOB-25}. Nor Docks. And so on...

[El Bandito]

Sister RAbbi, on 10 April 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

On the other hand, a LOT of NATO and various other military allies of USA/NATO ARE NOT native speakers of, or even all that familiar with, the modern American English from which those words are mostly taken. And therefore, Foxtrot stands. Why? Well, BOXES don't trot. Nor really do {LT-MOB-25}. Nor Docks. And so on...

You do realize that most allies of USA/NATO who are not familiar with English do not even understand the word "trot", let alone give a thought about it, right? So Foxtrot itself is confusing to them. Hell, I studied English since middle school and only after I stayed in USA for 2 years did I learn the word "trot".

And since none of your examples exist in the NATO word list, the word "fox" is without competition.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 April 2016 - 10:32 PM.

[Aetes Nakatomi]

It is foxtrot because over radio messages can become garbled and you can lose a single syllable word. Nothing more, nothing less.

[John1352]

It's not just about getting the phonetic alphabet right. You need your teammates to be more afraid of you than they are of the enemies, that way they'll do as they are told:

https://youtu.be/HsQ2UJxYKwE

[El Bandito]

Aetes Nakatomi, on 10 April 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

It is foxtrot because over radio messages can become garbled and you can lose a single syllable word. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then how do you explain "golf" and "mike"?

[ShadowWolf Kell]

El Bandito, on 10 April 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

Then how do you explain "golf" and "mike"?

This should answer your questions.
http://www.ac6v.com/dxphonetics.htm

TLDR - People are trained to use it and it's become pretty much universal.

[Curccu]

El Bandito, on 10 April 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

One word that really miffed me is Foxtrot. Why not just call it Fox? There are no other words in that alphabet list that can be confused with Fox.

+1 I really don't understand why it is Foxtrot instead of Fox... and I have used Fox instead of it always.

[Aetes Nakatomi]

Perhaps it was just a favourite dance of the people making the thing the same as Tango. I was going from when I was a cadet and asked the same question, I was told fox is easily lost where as foxtrot is not. As for Mike and Golf perhaps they lost less as they sound harder than the soft sounding fox.

[Nyte Kitsune]

Typically they are as follows...

Alpha
Bravo
Charlie
Delta
Echo
Foxtrot
Gamma
Hotel
India
Juliet
K.. Is..uh....Kill it! Kill it!... Ok, really make that one up as I go.

[Omi_]

El Bandito, on 10 April 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

One word that really miffed me is Foxtrot. Why not just call it Fox? There are no other words in that alphabet list that can be confused with Fox.

I can answer this. The original reason is one of context. It should be clear that the speaker is using the word for F as a target designation and not using the word for it's true etymological use. That's why dance styles are used; the styles themselves are unlikely to be confused for targets in conversation. You could, in theory, artfully call Detla Jenner a "foxy" devil during a match and end up undermining the clarity of this convention. "Delta Jenner was seen doing the foxtrot" is much less likely.

A more common arguement is that the second syllable -trot is clearly audible and recognizable as belonging to the word "foxtrot". Hearing "-trot" provides a confirmation that you did in fact hear F called out, or a second chance to hear the word if "fox-" is coming through clearly over comms. "Ffff-" can be a tough consonant to hear if you have to listen through any audio.

Examples:
Target box!
Target locks!
Target docks!
Target Fox!
Target Foxtrot!

"Fffoxfokssssfoxifffox oxsifffox" Fox Fox Fox!
"Foxtrot__trotockstrotfox_ot“ Foxtrot Foxtrot Foxtrot!

TL;DR: NATO alphabet stands to keep communication as clear as possible through signal degredation with minimal confusion of context.

Edited by Hornsby, 11 April 2016 - 12:34 AM.

[RussianWolf]

El Bandito, on 10 April 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

One word that really miffed me is Foxtrot. Why not just call it Fox? There are no other words in that alphabet list that can be confused with Fox.

And I like to say Beta and Gamma for "B" and "G" cause of playing MW2 Clan campaign for too long.

too easy to miss single syllable words if comms has static. The words are designed so if you catch the ending, you still know what the word was. Trust me, many of us old comms guys wished they would use something other than Golf and Mike.

[RussianWolf]

And by the way, you forgot L - Lima. The 12th mech.

[SuomiWarder]

The phonetic alphabet schemes generally try for two syllable words for when fuzzy comms might make part of the word unclear...or so I was always lead to believe. Of course Golf / Gulf flies in the face of that logic.

[Rushin Roulette]

El Bandito, on 10 April 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

That would be true if "box" was in in the list, but it is not. And due to the way the first consonant is pronounced, people will more likely confuse it with "*****" more than box.

Actually, that is teh exact reason why Foxtrot is used insted of Fox. You can confuse many letters with similar ones B, D, E, C are all similar sounding, therefore the Nato name lettering method of clarifying them. The same holds true for rhyming words, Box, Fox, Cox (The apple type orange Cox... get your minds out of the gutter) . Foxtrot can not be confused with Boxtrot or Coxtrot, as neither of the other words exist.
Nato lettering is not needed as it is written exactly to convey the meaning.
The Nato lettering is only an agreed on list of words to represent certain letters for the organised militaries who are using the English language for communication. The German Military uses their own very distinctive letter designations when communicating internally in German for example.

What is important is to use words, which are unmistakable (no Phone for P as it is F sound as the start instead of P for example) and do not have a rhyming word with a similar sounding letter at the start. The Nato letters how ever may as well be used as it is an easy to read up and learn system which is used internationally for communicating in English.

[RussianWolf]

Buki Slova (Russian Slang Phonetic Alphabet for BS.......nope, its for....... Bolshoi Spaceba.. ....or....... Thanks a lot...... in English)

Edited by RussianWolf, 11 April 2016 - 06:25 AM.

[Escef]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 10 April 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

The reason the system is used isn't due to spelling. It's due to sound.

The reason is sound, but you avoid words that start with sounds that don't match the letter because it can contribute to, rather than eliminate, confusion. Which is why you don't use phone for P or F, nor honor for H or O.

Edited by Escef, 11 April 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

well it was standardised in 1956 by Nato

I use any old thing that annoy's ex military, or a combination of pre 1942 RAF call signs.

Five Timber wolves at Incontinent four sounds perfect to me

[Nightmare1]

My Unit just runs with the military phonetic alphabet. Some use NATO and some use the older U.S. codes. In the end, if you draw a blank in the middle of a fight, just make sure you use a word that starts with the letter of your target and you'll be okay.

Personally, I like to swap V's "Victor" out for something like "Violet" or "Viper" to avoid Mech confusion. Of course, with the Viper actually coming out soon, I'll have to drop that one. Also, for some reason, I always forget that P is "Papa" and call "Pico" instead. Don't ask me why though.

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 10 April 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

Then how do you explain "golf" and "mike"?

Those 2, specifically, are very distinct from the rest of the list of names.

In fact, because of radio traffic, and interference, you will notice that all the words are not only representative of the first letter, but also completely distinct in sound from all the other words chosen.

Over really bad interference, fox and golf could sound very similar if the signal is poor. However, foxtrot and golf are 2 distinctly different words, and make distinguishing clearly more decipherable.

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 10 April 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

Then how do you explain "golf" and "mike"?

If you take a look here https://en.wikipedia...onetic_alphabet from 41-56 the US phonetic alphabet was using simply "fox".

If I had to guess I'd say that the process for devising the current list was semi-organic, with words that were problematic being replaced with something easier to identify and words like "Mike" and "Golf" being clear regardless of the fact that they are only one syllable and a word like "fox" probably running into some issues and being revised.




"After World War II, with many aircraft and ground personnel from the allied armed forces, "Able Baker" continued to be used for civil aviation. But many sounds were unique to English, so an alternative "Ana Brazil" alphabet was used in Latin America. But the International Air Transport Association (IATA), recognizing the need for a single universal alphabet, presented a draft alphabet to the ICAO during 1947 that had sounds common to English, French, Spanish and Portuguese. After further study and modification by each approving body, the revised alphabet was implemented on 1 November 1951 for civil aviation (but it may not have been adopted by any military):^[22]"

[indent]
"Alfa Bravo Coca Delta Echo Foxtrot Golf Hotel India Juliett Kilo Lima Metro Nectar Oscar Papa Quebec Romeo Sierra Tango Union Victor Whisky Extra Yankee Zulu"[/indent]

Edited by Ultimax, 11 April 2016 - 09:21 AM.