37 replies to this topic

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 12 April 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

I can't remember the last time a light was that close to my Banshee to take advantage of that.

You asked why.

That's why.

Edit: Also what fox said....shaven armor and ammo storage.

It's the trifecta of why lights are better than assaults.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 12 April 2016 - 08:12 PM.

[Johnny Z]

The Atlas Overlord, on 12 April 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

You asked why.

That's why.

Edit: Also what fox said....shaven armor and ammo storage.

It's the trifecta of why lights are better than assaults.

Assaults are the toughest class to pilot. They really are. Getting one to mastered is even tougher. But an experienced/equipped assault mech is worth its tonnage and is not worse than a light.

Basically assault mechs are almost always best close in fighters unless they can hill hump well and or use some LRM's. Being so slow and large it isn't easy getting into close range without getting torn apart, but once there they are devastating.

The topic title about the Banshee is right it is brutal when it gets in close although I don't have one myself I have seen them do very well.

I have 2 STK's I got them because I had to many humanoid mechs at the time and they turned out to be a great mech to use after being mastered and fine tuning load out and with practice. Also I got the King Crab because it looks awesome and I wanted a 100 tonner. A short range mech and one I take when I'm not lazy but is really good close in.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 April 2016 - 08:39 PM.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Johnny Z, on 12 April 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

Assaults are the toughest class to pilot.

I would agree with you with most of them.....there are a few assaults that are laughably easy.

Edit: Some of the mediums are pretty hard to use too.

Johnny Z, on 12 April 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

But an experienced/equipped assault mech is worth its tonnage and is not worse than a light.

I would disagree with you.

An actually good light pilot will devour an entire lance of assaults.....not all at once....but it would happen.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 12 April 2016 - 08:58 PM.

[Lykaon]

Dakota1000, on 12 April 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

He used a Marauder, he originally used a STD 300 engine but since has swapped to an XL 300 and has now been putting out much more damage but with similar survival rates. My hypothesis is that now that the Marauder has been out some time and people found them to not be favorable for XLs people started to find that all Marauders were running STD engines and no longer went for side torso kills on them.

This is further amplified by using a symmetrical loadout, that way no one focuses one side in particular over the other due to massive firepower in one.

Here is the "thing" with the Marauder.

It's tanky as hell and putting the XL engine on it trades off this tankyness for what really? if you are not putting in a larger engine for more speed you are putting in more guns ? and gaining a burdensome heat issue in the exchange.

The end results overall is a less tanky mech than could have been capable of soaking boarding upon obscene levels of damage for a big alpha and lower sustainability of damage output.

Also, when shooting a marauder leg it. you will kill it faster attacking the legs than trying to blast through the torsos.

The issue is the Marauder's long sides cover the mech extremely well from the sides. A destroyed body location only transfers 50% of the damage taken to the joined body segment.

Ie: shooting a 40 point alpha at a destroyed Marauder right torso only does 20 damage to the CT. and those Marauders have some impressive structure quirks on the torso segments.

I would not recommend an XL Marauder unless everyone else figures out that legging is the way to go.Then of course take the XL nobody will be shooting your torsos anyhow

[627]

I think the marauder is very similar to the king crab. Both are usually seen as STD mechs but when you put an XL in it, they are still a viable mech. Especially the speed gains are a thing - many loadouts for a king crab mount an STD300 as basis and that is nearly the same weight as the XL350. but you are so much faster with it that you can get out of bad situations where you'd have died with an STD300.

The marauder gets even more speed with this swap as most builds are based on a STD300, too.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I've been piloting Marauders a while. Most are STD engines but I do have 1 XL variant...you know...because.

Honestly, I think I'd still stick with STD engines.

If the Marauder could ever be truly "fast" for a heavy and still carry great firepower, then I'd be more likely to recommend XLs. Since an XL often means you are still slow (but have a bit more firepower), it doesn't seem like the firepower makes up for the slower target the Marauder presents. That is also why it needs those durability quirks to begin with.

I actually like symetrical builds in the Marauder when I can (instead of Min/Max-ing) because those side torsos are so big. Obviously I can't get away from that on ballistic builds (like the MAD 3R with 3 A/C5s), but the Bounty Hunter seems to stay relevant in battle even when one torso is gone.
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=348&l=05eb1bd7e69ca379102c7451c9126fa50517792b

Overall I've seen that side torso go too quick in battle to fully recommend running an XL in a Marauder. If it could go almost 90 kph and still carry good firepower, I'd be more likely to recommend it. Since an XL with a solid loadout often doesn't get you over 74kph, it doesn't seem worth it. Plus of course those big side torsos, and the slower twist rate, and the small and narrow CT from the front, it just seems STD engine is the best bet.

BTW, although I can't speak for a Banshee, the Zeus does XL well. Not all Assaults need to avoid XLs, IMO just the slower less maneuverable ones *cough* Atlas *cough*.

[Sader325]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 12 April 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

Why would you attempt to leg an Assault mech?

Is this a trick question?

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Sader325, on 13 April 2016 - 02:44 AM, said:

Is this a trick question?

No just really obtuse. Even I tend to ask those from time to time.

[Sader325]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 April 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

I've been piloting Marauders a while. Most are STD engines but I do have 1 XL variant...you know...because.

Honestly, I think I'd still stick with STD engines.

If the Marauder could ever be truly "fast" for a heavy and still carry great firepower, then I'd be more likely to recommend XLs. Since an XL often means you are still slow (but have a bit more firepower), it doesn't seem like the firepower makes up for the slower target the Marauder presents. That is also why it needs those durability quirks to begin with.

I actually like symetrical builds in the Marauder when I can (instead of Min/Max-ing) because those side torsos are so big. Obviously I can't get away from that on ballistic builds (like the MAD 3R with 3 A/C5s), but the Bounty Hunter seems to stay relevant in battle even when one torso is gone.
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=348&l=05eb1bd7e69ca379102c7451c9126fa50517792b

Overall I've seen that side torso go too quick in battle to fully recommend running an XL in a Marauder. If it could go almost 90 kph and still carry good firepower, I'd be more likely to recommend it. Since an XL with a solid loadout often doesn't get you over 74kph, it doesn't seem worth it. Plus of course those big side torsos, and the slower twist rate, and the small and narrow CT from the front, it just seems STD engine is the best bet.

BTW, although I can't speak for a Banshee, the Zeus does XL well. Not all Assaults need to avoid XLs, IMO just the slower less maneuverable ones *cough* Atlas *cough*.

Stop by my stream one day and ask me to play my Marauder or any of my Innersphere mechs.

Because every single one of them is XL.

Marauder is one of the best XL mechs in the game, hands down.

Edited by Sader325, 13 April 2016 - 02:51 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Sader325, on 13 April 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

Stop by my stream one day and ask me to play my Marauder or any of my Innersphere mechs.

Because every single one of them is XL.

Marauder is one of the best XL mechs in the game, hands down.

Only if you NEVER. EVER. get flanked.

I dont use XLs in egg shaped mechs, because im not 100% perfect at making sure no one ever attacks me from outside my field of view, and when a MAD (or KGC, or STK, etc) gets hit from either flank that ST IS going to fall off, instantly, because you cant miss it, and you cant hit anything else.

TBFH i dont like non humanoid mechs for that exact reason, using an XL is almost always preferable in MWO because you can use the speed/agility to stay at full combat effectiveness for longer than a STD mech, and large slow mechs with the firepower of lights (i.e. STD engine assaults/heavies after an ST has been destroyed) very rarely contribute more than another 100 dmg at best.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 13 April 2016 - 03:08 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Sader325, on 13 April 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

Stop by my stream one day and ask me to play my Marauder or any of my Innersphere mechs.

Because every single one of them is XL.

Marauder is one of the best XL mechs in the game, hands down.

I think we can agree to disagree

[Jetdrag]

The Zeus is great with an XL too.
In general though I found once I got better at spreading and taking damage where I wanted to I started running a lot more xls.

[Karl Streiger]

well my Zeus with XL died when both its side torsos were destroyed - at the same moment. must have been a Clan ERPPC
anyhow its very confusing with all those turning and twisting and you suddenly run out of armor at both sides. and the CT has still armor - lucky the dire wolf did pumped his shots in death center
R is Los Tech

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 April 2016 - 05:27 AM.

[Corrado]

i'd say tanky mechs (with for instance ST CT structure quirks) with STD to maximize the meatshield effect. so topdog, marauders, hunchbacks, atlas (exept for the BLK-7 that i run with a 350XL, the BLK-6 with accel quirks is wonderful with a STD 325, 2 AMS and MPLS. tanks forever.)

XL on mechs not made to tank / can't zombie / easy to hit CT, that needs to bite with more weaponry or rely strictly on speed.

Edited by Corrado, 13 April 2016 - 06:37 AM.

[Ultimax]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 12 April 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

Well... While I understand most assaults have STDs... Im surprised when i see a banshee with an STD...

While its true, when you see 5 LPL 2 slas banshee... You immediatelly think XL... I find that i still end up coring them or legging them instead of XLing them...

Their ct core is a bullet magnet...

If I see 5x LPLs on a Banshee it's an extremely high probability that it's XL.

So you call "Alpha, Banshee, XL" over TS.

What happens then is your team either straight up focuses a side torso - or more importantly when they get a rear/side angle they know where to shoot for a faster take down.

Being well designed to protect STs, doesn't mean you can always protect STs.

A target having XL doesn't mean we're always going to target the ST, it means we have another clear option for a kill if there is armor stripped there or similar.


The goal is always knowing the fastest way to remove an enemy mech.

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 12 April 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

Their ct core is a bullet magnet...

These are the hitboxes, those STs are by no means "small".

FupDup, on 12 April 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

Legs can't be protected, while torsos usually can be via twisting. Also, especially on assaults, people might strip down the leg armor...

I disagree with this, you are still spending a lot of energy cutting out both legs while the mech retains full weapon functionality - and this is also assuming that the mech isn't peeking over hills with legs totally obscured in the first place.

It's extremely rare for it to be the better option than taking out a torso location.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Ultimax, on 13 April 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

If I see 5x LPLs on a Banshee it's an extremely high probability that it's XL.

So you call "Alpha, Banshee, XL" over TS.

What happens then is your team either straight up focuses a side torso - or more importantly when they get a rear/side angle they know where to shoot for a faster take down.

Being well designed to protect STs, doesn't mean you can always protect STs.

A target having XL doesn't mean we're always going to target the ST, it means we have another clear option for a kill if there is armor stripped there or similar.


The goal is always knowing the fastest way to remove an enemy mech.





These are the hitboxes, those STs are by no means "small".







I disagree with this, you are still spending a lot of energy cutting out both legs while the mech retains full weapon functionality - and this is also assuming that the mech isn't peeking over hills with legs totally obscured in the first place.

It's extremely rare for it to be the better option than taking out a torso location.

Just about anything dies nearly instantly the moment it goes against a good team that is coordinated and focus firing. The thing is you aren't always going against that, and even if you are the STD engine at best bought you about 2 or 3 extra seconds under that fire at the cost of having a weaker, slower loadout with less cooling over the course of the match.

It can be a trade off, but not always so. Also against less experienced players who don't know the loadouts of every mech they may end up not even knowing you have an XL, especially with the high amount of people out there who never even press R.

But of course anything gets worse as your competition gets better.

[Lykaon]

FupDup, on 12 April 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

Legs can't be protected, while torsos usually can be via twisting. Also, especially on assaults, people might strip down the leg armor...

Here is the trick to countering torso twisting to spread damage.

Aim at the crotch on humanoid mechs it's almost always center torso and not legs. Works exceptionaly well on the Atlas and Banshees.

[Y E O N N E]

Lykaon, on 13 April 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Here is the trick to countering torso twisting to spread damage.

Aim at the crotch on humanoid mechs it's almost always center torso and not legs. Works exceptionaly well on the Atlas and Banshees.

Alternatively, just wait for the target to either A.) face you to take his shot or B.) turn too far and shoot him in the back.

In either case, you retain initiative.