68 replies to this topic

[Rushin Roulette]

Monodominant, on 13 April 2016 - 05:02 AM, said:

Yes, shotguns with pellets can have those pellets travel far and do NO damage. In my mind thats what shooting beyond optimal means.

Shotguns with pellets are used for hunting birds for example because its like shooting a cloud of metal as the bird flies and some of them hit it. Shoot too far and maybe the bird is wounded or just doesnt care.

In my eyes a 600 optimal should mean you do ALL your damage.

That is the thing. The LBX pellets do deal full damage within the optimal range... but each pellet deals separate damage. That is 10 single pellets, each dealing 1 damage. Just like your example with bird hunting, it only takes 1 pellet to hit a bird and wound/kill it for the shot to be a score. However, if every singel pellet from that shotgun spread misses the bird left, right, front and back, then nothing will happen.

Get far enough away from an LBX or shotgun and this is what happens. the individual bullets have spread out in far enough apart a cone shape, that the individual pellets will partially miss, thus dealing 0 damage and the pellets that do connect each deal 1 damage. The closer you are to the weapon, the tighter the spread is, purely because the cone isnt as wide at that point.

[Metus regem]

El Bandito, on 13 April 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

My suggestion is very easy to implement with very little chance of PGI mucking it up. Just keeping it simple.

True, but it is PGI, they will muck it up.

[SuomiWarder]

With LBX think more a mix of kinetic penetrating darts held together inside the rounds. Those are not mushy rounds pellets made of lead you are spewing downrange like a giant shot gun, but a cluster of high speed depleted uranium javelins.

[DerMaulwurf]

The LB-X autocannon is also not meant to fire cluster ammo exclusively. Unfortunately, PGI has been unable to implement ammo switching. The continued existence of the 'placeholder' Clan-ACs is testament to that.

Besides that the niche that shotguns occupy in games (low range, high damage weapon with spread) is already filled by SRMs. Trying to fit the LB-10X into the same role will make it redundant.

[Lucian Nostra]

Rushin Roulette, on 13 April 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Well, seeing as many of the TT rules are just compeltely unrealistic and can not be explained (Gauss dealing reduced damage under minimal range for example) it makes much, much more sense the way the LBX has been implemented in MWO.
The way it should happen per TT rules is the bullets fly out of the straight barrel... make a curve as soon as they exit the muzzle to spread out a bit... then turn back to the original trajectory and fly towards the opposing mech in a spread. Care to explain how that is physically possible without "its space magic, dont ask!" ?
Also before you say that this is a fictional universe and technology is unknown to us; ACs are basically newer versions of currently existing weapons (Tank cannons) and shoot out shaped balls of metal which cause impact damage on the targets. These unguided lumps of metal still need to obey the same Newtonian laws with their trajectories.

I suggest before knocking something you actually understand it. What reduced damage on Gauss rifles? There is no reduced damage on ANYTHING in TT for range.. being under min range imposes a penalty to shoot because of targeting software, cumbersomeness of the weapon and the way to weapon fires its projectile. Hell even LRMs do full damage under min range at massive to hit penalties.

Also I cant follow what your talking about with bending bullets trajectory.. but people have explained it to you, canister shot, airburst rounds.. all stuff that's been around since at least the civil war for canister shot and airburst rounds have been around at least as early as Vietnam in artillery rounds.

[Karl Streiger]

Lucian Nostra, on 13 April 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

I suggest before knocking something you actually understand it. What reduced damage on Gauss rifles? There is no reduced damage on ANYTHING in TT for range.. being under min range imposes a penalty to shoot because of targeting software, cumbersomeness of the weapon and the way to weapon fires its projectile. Hell even LRMs do full damage under min range at massive to hit penalties.

you are talking about the angular speed of aiming (pistol vs tank rifle at CQ) or the minimum barrel elevation didn't you?


anyhow all those range rules were necessary to play a balanced game on a table - and should never have been translated with no change into a first person shooter.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 April 2016 - 06:00 AM.

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 13 April 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

My suggestion is very easy to implement with very little chance of PGI mucking it up. Just keeping it simple.

yup. Simply 1.5 damage per pellet, then you can have a decent spread and it works just fine. Then you've got a shotgun.

1 damage cannister rounds don't help. Doing the same damage with spread, even if that spread is controlled, is ALWAYS WORSE than just hitting for ppfld.

Given that 10 damage single hits are better for crits than 10 2 damage pellets with bonus crit rate... Yeah.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 April 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

Unfortunately, PGI wants to go with a spread, shotgun approach to the mechanic, so we will never be able to actually use the maximum optimal range of the LBX effectively. If they just used the C-ERPPC splash code instead, however, you could simulate a fixed damage spread across all ranges. Obviously with the proportion of core damage to spread damage being altered. Would be great if the damage to internal structure was increased by 1.5x or so, too, so you give up the ability to easily break armor but gain increased lethality to internals.

+1

Seriously, I think this is a good idea.

[GreyNovember]

Alternate? Bump damage up and cut down optimal range.

2 Damage within 300 meters && 1 Damage at 450 meters.

Now it behaves more like a "long" ranged SRM cloud; albeit one that doesn't stop existing at 270m.

[LightningStorm]

If you like shotguns use SRMs not LBXs

[Wintersdark]

GreyNovember, on 13 April 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

Alternate? Bump damage up and cut down optimal range.

2 Damage within 300 meters && 1 Damage at 450 meters.

Now it behaves more like a "long" ranged SRM cloud; albeit one that doesn't stop existing at 270m.

You could, but really simply going to 1.5 damage per pellet achieves the same ends with less silliness.

That way, an LBX10 would still fire 15 damage worth of pellets, and at quite long range, but beyond close ranges you'll miss with some pellets (bringing you back to 10ish effective damage spread out). You then "tune" things with the spread to determine where you want the range to be, but you keep a decent amount of damage to a decent range; because the LBX10 is still a very large, very heavy weapon.

**'s idea to use the CERPPC spread code is great too (just call it cannister ammo and that's that) but then you lose the cool shotgun look of the LBX firing, which is badass.

Wait, Pariah Devalis's initials get censored? Seriously? This forum never ceases to amaze.

Edited by Wintersdark, 13 April 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Wintersdark, on 13 April 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

**'s idea to use the CERPPC spread code is great too (just call it cannister ammo and that's that) but then you lose the cool shotgun look of the LBX firing, which is badass.

Wait, Pariah Devalis's initials get censored? Seriously? This forum never ceases to amaze.

don't have to
i can't say for sure but the ppc looks different then the gaus or the AC but at least they are all just projectiles so why shouldn't the LBX be just one projectile that looks like a dozen ones.
Maybe you can even make the burst effect of a MW3 weapon and its still 1 projectile

[N a p e s]

Yes to upping the damage to 1.5/pellet but I'd probably go even further all the way up to 1.8/pellet but compensate by increasing the cooldown (3-3.5 seconds for the LBX10). This would keep the DPS in check and turn them into a more brawler oriented weapons. At the same time this damage remains spread so it's OK for them to have seeming inflated DPS values versus there pinpoint alternatives.

The LBX isn't relevant and never has been. Ya, you can kill things and it looks and sounds great but it'd be fun if there was an actual choice between that and the AC10.

Edited by N a p e s, 13 April 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[GoldenPixelF2P]

El Bandito, on 13 April 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

2/5/10/20 can simply be the number of pellets fired, the pellet damage itself can be changed. PGI already changed a lot of weapons' damage value, so there is no reason not to touch LBX numbers.

I think the pellets should deal around 1.5 damage, for starters, and the LBX range reduced.

The point of the numbers is its damage. They are supposed to be a spread fire variant of the ACs. By increasing their damage, that would take away its original purpose.

[El Bandito]

GoldenPixelF2P, on 13 April 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

The point of the numbers is its damage. They are supposed to be a spread fire variant of the ACs. By increasing their damage, that would take away its original purpose.

It really wont. The numbers can simply signify the LBX caliber, or pellet count. The weapon damage itself can be of any number.

For example, LRM20 is supposed to deal 20 damage in TT, but for a period of time, a single LRM used to deal 1.8 damage in MWO, meaning LRM20 at that time actually dealt 36 damage + splash. So yeah, lore can take a backseat when it comes to balancing.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 April 2016 - 09:04 AM.

[jonfett]

LightningStorm, on 13 April 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

If you like shotguns use SRMs not LBXs

Why not both? I have a Jager that has dual LBX-10's and dual SRM-4's. It is devastating up close to enemy mechs.

[dwwolf]

Rushin Roulette, on 13 April 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Seeing as you can only use 1 of the side torsos on the Marauder, you can only choose between 2*LBX10 or either one of AC20 or Gauss. The AC20 and the Gauss both need more than half of the available slots, so a second one will not fit.

As for your question regarding the range of the LBX. Yes it does have a long range, but the spread of the individual shells is so far apart at that range, that many of them will miss an Awsome or Direwolf even if you aimed right at it. Shotguns in real life are not that short ranged either. They shoot further than many realise.. but they also have the same problem of ending up peppering the horizon if the pellets can travel far enough.



Well, seeing as many of the TT rules are just compeltely unrealistic and can not be explained (Gauss dealing reduced damage under minimal range for example) it makes much, much more sense the way the LBX has been implemented in MWO.
The way it should happen per TT rules is the bullets fly out of the straight barrel... make a curve as soon as they exit the muzzle to spread out a bit... then turn back to the original trajectory and fly towards the opposing mech in a spread. Care to explain how that is physically possible without "its space magic, dont ask!" ?
Also before you say that this is a fictional universe and technology is unknown to us; ACs are basically newer versions of currently existing weapons (Tank cannons) and shoot out shaped balls of metal which cause impact damage on the targets. These unguided lumps of metal still need to obey the same Newtonian laws with their trajectories.

Gauss had minimum range and thus a to hit penalty in that range bracket. Its not completely unrealistic. Sabot seperation induces yaw in projectiles and they need a short range to be fully stabalised by the fins. 120mm APDSFS actually gains penetration in the first 100meters or so.

LBX cluster rounds functioning is easily explained by some sort of proximity fused EFP round. Look up bofors 3P ammo on youtube.

[El Bandito]

LightningStorm, on 13 April 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

If you like shotguns use SRMs not LBXs

Cause they have totally different range and velocity, and are not interchangeable due to one being missle and the other being ballistic. Also, my Atlas can use both. Both is good.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 April 2016 - 08:59 AM.

[Pinscher]

Alot of the problems that come with this game is that most players have not played TT. Several weapon systems were designed and balanced do shoot things other than mechs. TT is a game with a diversity of equipment other than mechs.

- Infantry, Elementals, tanks, aircraft, and VTOL(helicopter).

flamers and mg's are more of an infantry clearing weapon. We dont have infantry so they seem like lack luster weapons. TT base load outs use them for infantry clearing as well as lowering the overall battle value.

As for the LBX's, they were great for critting mechs in TT. Also for skatter dmg at range to hit aircraft and VTOLS. The lbx has a place here in MWO, PGI just needs to make the weapon system viable. Changing damage to splash like a previous poster said would be grreat. Second could be a really darn good crit chance for hitting internals with a pellet.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 13 April 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

It really wont. The numbers can simply signify the LBX caliber, or pellet count. The weapon damage itself can be of any number.

For example, LRM20 is supposed to deal 20 damage in TT, but for a period of time, a single LRM used to deal 1.8 damage in MWO, meaning LRM20 at that time actually dealt 36 damage + splash. So yeah, lore can take a backseat when it comes to balancing.

You can also use the UAC10 in this case

It only deals 9,99 damage.

Or use Crits as an example, where the AC20 regularly does 23 damage, or more.