Jump to content

Arent Shotguns A Short Range Weapon? Lbx


68 replies to this topic

#41 Yosharian

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 1,656 posts

Posted 13 April 2016 - 09:31 AM

From my old balance thread (Sept 2015):

Quote

LB 10-X AC:

- Cooldown reduction to 2 seconds, down from 2.5 seconds
- Max Range reduction to 620m, down from 1620
- Ammo/ton increase to 20/ton, up from 15/ton
- Heat reduction to 1.75, down from 2

The LB 10-X AC loses its absurd range in favour of much-needed buffs to make it a close combat beast, being cooler, faster to fire and having a more durable ammo count.


Although I think LB 10-X ammo is now 20/ton? Not sure, haven't used it in a while cos it's ****.

#42 ColdPsyker1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 243 posts

Posted 13 April 2016 - 11:52 AM

View PostDerMaulwurf, on 13 April 2016 - 05:52 AM, said:

The LB-X autocannon is also not meant to fire cluster ammo exclusively. Unfortunately, PGI has been unable to implement ammo switching. The continued existence of the 'placeholder' Clan-ACs is testament to that.

Besides that the niche that shotguns occupy in games (low range, high damage weapon with spread) is already filled by SRMs. Trying to fit the LB-10X into the same role will make it redundant.


Has anyone ever been able to get a straight answer out of PGI as to why they cant do that?

I mean, I can load up Crysis (you know, the game that started CryEngine)
-grab the *cough* totally-non-an-AK47 *cough*
-press the button to customize my gun
-and switch between incendiary ammo and regular amm

they had ammo switching in cryengine back in 2007...

#43 S 0 L E N Y A

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,031 posts
  • LocationWest Side

Posted 13 April 2016 - 12:25 PM

View PostColdPsyker1, on 13 April 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:


Has anyone ever been able to get a straight answer out of PGI as to why they cant do that?

I mean, I can load up Crysis (you know, the game that started CryEngine)
-grab the *cough* totally-non-an-AK47 *cough*
-press the button to customize my gun
-and switch between incendiary ammo and regular amm

they had ammo switching in cryengine back in 2007...


Starting to think PGI blaming the engine is code for "we dont know how to do that"

#44 Metus regem

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sureshot
  • The Sureshot
  • 10,282 posts
  • LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses

Posted 13 April 2016 - 01:13 PM

View PostColdPsyker1, on 13 April 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:


Has anyone ever been able to get a straight answer out of PGI as to why they cant do that?

I mean, I can load up Crysis (you know, the game that started CryEngine)
-grab the *cough* totally-non-an-AK47 *cough*
-press the button to customize my gun
-and switch between incendiary ammo and regular amm

they had ammo switching in cryengine back in 2007...



PGI is using a very, very butchered version of CryEngine, perhaps those 'adjustments' that were made to it, is preventing them from being able to access that part of the code... hell that part of the code may not even be there in their version...

#45 BigBenn

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 571 posts
  • LocationSioux Falls, SD

Posted 13 April 2016 - 01:30 PM

I think a reduction in spread is all that is needed for LBX. Since it has 3 X range vs 2 X range of AC's, perhaps PGI could code it so that the spread is rather small inside the 1 X, then have it be "normal" at 2 and 3 X.

The LBX is a great weapon, but it doesn't fit in well with the current state of MWO. Where it works really well is at the end of a PUG match when you can run through and 1 shot 1 kill a number of critically damaged enemy mechs. :)

#46 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 4,806 posts

Posted 13 April 2016 - 01:36 PM

I'd love to see it have actual canister rounds, that could be pretty decent.

Alternatively we could at least get a large spread reduction so it has spread similar to an SRM2.

#47 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 13 April 2016 - 01:45 PM

View PostRushin Roulette, on 13 April 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Well, seeing as many of the TT rules are just compeltely unrealistic and can not be explained (Gauss dealing reduced damage under minimal range for example) it makes much, much more sense the way the LBX has been implemented in MWO.
The way it should happen per TT rules is the bullets fly out of the straight barrel... make a curve as soon as they exit the muzzle to spread out a bit... then turn back to the original trajectory and fly towards the opposing mech in a spread. Care to explain how that is physically possible without "its space magic, dont ask!" ?
Also before you say that this is a fictional universe and technology is unknown to us; ACs are basically newer versions of currently existing weapons (Tank cannons) and shoot out shaped balls of metal which cause impact damage on the targets. These unguided lumps of metal still need to obey the same Newtonian laws with their trajectories.


I have two words: guided munitions.

#48 mark v92

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 441 posts

Posted 13 April 2016 - 01:51 PM

View PostGoldenPixelF2P, on 13 April 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

My problem with this idea is that the LB2/5/10/20-X AC does 2/5/10/20 respectively. It isn't meant to do more damage then that. Maybe a higher crit ratio, but if they were to do as you want it, it would make the name pretty redundant, unless you're trying to make it about the number of shots. As for spread, it isn't as bad as the shotguns we know today. For a few hundred feet, it's not that bad. In fact, I've hit people past the maximum damage range with enough pellets to disorient them.


well you can simply say the LB10-X does 10 damage at optimal range.

Could be like this:

20 dmg at 0m
10 dmg at 600m (optimal range)
0 dmg at 1200m


Could even take it one step further and say:

10 armor dmg and 10 internal dmg at 0m
10 armor dmg and 5 internal dmg at 300m
10 armor dmg and 0 internal dmg at 600m
5 dmg at 900m
0 dmg at 1200m

so 1 single pellet will do 1 dmg and 0.5 internal dmg at 300m

maybe then nerf the range of them a bit and making them more usefull as a shotgun like PGI wants them to be.

(i would also like a canister round tho)

#49 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 13 April 2016 - 02:02 PM

View PostColdPsyker1, on 13 April 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:


Has anyone ever been able to get a straight answer out of PGI as to why they cant do that?

I mean, I can load up Crysis (you know, the game that started CryEngine)
-grab the *cough* totally-non-an-AK47 *cough*
-press the button to customize my gun
-and switch between incendiary ammo and regular amm

they had ammo switching in cryengine back in 2007...


Somewhere on these forums is a first/second-hand statement stating specifically that PGI is unable to implement ammo switching because the developer who wrote the code no longer works for PGI. Implied but not stated is that no one else in PGI understands the code.

#50 Lyoto Machida

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 5,082 posts

Posted 13 April 2016 - 02:15 PM

View PostRushin Roulette, on 13 April 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Well, seeing as many of the TT rules are just compeltely unrealistic and can not be explained (Gauss dealing reduced damage under minimal range for example) it makes much, much more sense the way the LBX has been implemented in MWO.


It's been a long time since any TT play for me but wasn't the 60m minimum range for Gauss a to-hit penalty, not a damage reduction penalty?

Would you use a shotgun to clear rooms in a close quarter situation or a long barreled sniper rifle? If you'd pick the sniper rifle, explain why...

#51 Rocket2Uranus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 359 posts

Posted 13 April 2016 - 02:18 PM

lol... PGI can spend time to improve.... adjust... and make things better all across the game.

But the issue is, they rather spend money/time on mechs to be put on sale. Because... this is a game to make money. Not a game to have fun.

It's F2P!!!!

#52 Afuldan McKronik

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,331 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 13 April 2016 - 02:26 PM

The LBX in TT was the last thing a VTOL wanted pointing at it. Two pellets hitting the rotor and down she goes.

Edited by Afuldan McKronik, 13 April 2016 - 02:27 PM.


#53 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 17,340 posts

Posted 13 April 2016 - 03:31 PM

my rule of thumb is to treat all lbs as short range weapons. you might use the 2s about to about 400 meters, but anything beyond that all bets are off. use it under 200 meters and you got a great brawling weapon that wont heat you up, will do big damage to armor, and will crit anything thats open. its kind of like running machine guns and srms in the same weapon system.

the spreads are ridiculous. i mean seriously. there is no point to have extended range because they are not even optimal at their optimal range.

i think my biggest pet peeve with lbs is the 2. what kind of shotgun only fires 2 pellets? how do you even fit that into a round shell casing?

Edited by LordNothing, 13 April 2016 - 03:38 PM.


#54 Thunder Child

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ironclad
  • The Ironclad
  • 1,460 posts
  • LocationOn the other side of the rock now.

Posted 13 April 2016 - 03:48 PM

View PostLyoto Machida, on 13 April 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:


It's been a long time since any TT play for me but wasn't the 60m minimum range for Gauss a to-hit penalty, not a damage reduction penalty?

Would you use a shotgun to clear rooms in a close quarter situation or a long barreled sniper rifle? If you'd pick the sniper rifle, explain why...


For the jumping No-Scope Headshots, of course.
Your argument is too logical, and thus, invalid.

#55 Afuldan McKronik

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,331 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 13 April 2016 - 03:50 PM

Goose ruffles were -2 (+2 for the number needed) to hit under minimum range. Same as LRMS. Full damage on a hit though.

#56 Wintersdark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,375 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationCalgary, AB

Posted 13 April 2016 - 04:02 PM

View PostGoldenPixelF2P, on 13 April 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

The point of the numbers is its damage. They are supposed to be a spread fire variant of the ACs. By increasing their damage, that would take away its original purpose.
no, exact damage amount isn't purpose.

The number can refer to pellet count, or simply be an arbitrary value to show the class of autocannon (barrel diameter, for example, as we commonly measure things)

Purpose, though, it just blowing **** up. It'd still do that.

#57 Wintersdark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,375 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationCalgary, AB

Posted 13 April 2016 - 04:06 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 13 April 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

my rule of thumb is to treat all lbs as short range weapons. you might use the 2s about to about 400 meters, but anything beyond that all bets are off. use it under 200 meters and you got a great brawling weapon that wont heat you up, will do big damage to armor, and will crit anything thats open. its kind of like running machine guns and srms in the same weapon system.

the spreads are ridiculous. i mean seriously. there is no point to have extended range because they are not even optimal at their optimal range.

i think my biggest pet peeve with lbs is the 2. what kind of shotgun only fires 2 pellets? how do you even fit that into a round shell casing?


Higher damage per pellet and the spread is necessary for balance. Then it's finally a fearsome weapon up close, and "meh" at range. Currently, it's horrible at range and still objectively inferior to a non LBX weapon up close.

The alternative is basically just tightening the spread, but if you tighten the spread a lot, why bother having spread at all? Just use Parish's idea of CERPPC splash instead, because no matter how high the pellet crit rate goes, a 10+ damage single hit is a better crit weapon than low damage pellets.

#58 Moldur

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 2,234 posts

Posted 13 April 2016 - 04:12 PM

The LB-2X actually gets pretty fair range. It is also the fastest firing unquirked A/C 2 since it is the ONLY AC-2 with a cooldown module :)

#59 Thunder Child

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ironclad
  • The Ironclad
  • 1,460 posts
  • LocationOn the other side of the rock now.

Posted 13 April 2016 - 04:12 PM

View PostPinscher, on 13 April 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

Alot of the problems that come with this game is that most players have not played TT. Several weapon systems were designed and balanced do shoot things other than mechs. TT is a game with a diversity of equipment other than mechs.

- Infantry, Elementals, tanks, aircraft, and VTOL(helicopter).

flamers and mg's are more of an infantry clearing weapon. We dont have infantry so they seem like lack luster weapons. TT base load outs use them for infantry clearing as well as lowering the overall battle value.

As for the LBX's, they were great for critting mechs in TT. Also for skatter dmg at range to hit aircraft and VTOLS. The lbx has a place here in MWO, PGI just needs to make the weapon system viable. Changing damage to splash like a previous poster said would be grreat. Second could be a really darn good crit chance for hitting internals with a pellet.


Flamers and Machine guns became Infantry clearing weapons, after Infantry were added in later iterations. In the original 2750 era TT game, they were close range support weapons that were alternatives to the Small Laser. They actually had the same DPT as the AC 2 and Small Laser, as well. And Machine Guns were brutally effective Melee range Zero Heat weapons. Especially since you could mount a dozen of them, and only need half a ton of ammo for a whole match.

That's where things have been lost in translation from TT to FPS. They carried over every other weapon stat, but not the Mgun DPS or the Flamer DPS. Probably under the same mistaken assumption that these weapons are Anti-Infantry weapons, when they are in fact Mech-Grade Weapons that just happen to be efficient against Infantry.

Where the LB-X lost it's oomph is that, in TT, it doesn't matter if it's one point of damage or twenty points, each hit has a chance to cause a crit, and a single crit will destroy a component (not to be confused with a location). And a lucky shot with an LBX could land up to 5 individual hits against an unarmored location, resulting in five Critical hit rolls. Any one of those could be enough to destroy one or more components.
The same principle applies to the Silver-Bullet Gauss.
The TT Crit system also made LRMs very dangerous, due to splitting the Flight into groups of five. An LRM 20 could potentially crit four times.

In MWO, each component has it's own pool of HP that takes damage from critical hits, and when a shot causes a critical hit, the critical damage is a percentage of the weapon damage. So a single strong hit equals MORE critical damage than a flurry of smaller ones, even if the smaller ones have a greater chance of critical damage per projectile.
This is why, even with all the "crit-seeking" on it, the LB-X is still inferior to the AC 20 or Gauss (or even PPC) for dealing critical damage.
That, and it's usually just easier to destroy a location, than waste time critting components.

#60 Wintersdark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,375 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationCalgary, AB

Posted 13 April 2016 - 04:16 PM

View PostMoldur, on 13 April 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

The LB-2X actually gets pretty fair range. It is also the fastest firing unquirked A/C 2 since it is the ONLY AC-2 with a cooldown module :)
but it pays for that with appallingly poor accuracy making it laughably useless outside of 400m. Oh, you can get good damage numbers, but most is useless.

And even at that speed, it's still not actually a good weapon.

It is fun though.





7 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 7 guests, 0 anonymous users