30 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Haven't played CW in quite awhile. Played three matches last night. Noticed a few things. Clan units running pretty much just straight up Timbers and Crows and an odd Cheetah for spice. I do recall a couple of Mad Dogs that a pug had dropped in, but the teams were almost exclusively those first two mechs.

While there was a bit more variety on the IS side, even here one mech -the Black Knight- was by far predominately represented. There was an odd Stalker and Thunderbolt and even one person dropped in a Highlander, but really most waves comprised Timbers and Crows vs Black Knights and a few odd mechs (I ran my map specific decks so was an odd duck for most drops).

I get the whole hardpoint inflated, overly quirked IS mechs, angle for the BKs popularity. I get that the Crow and Timber are just darn near perfect mechs for their weight class in terms of weapons, profile, etc. Point being I understand why players bring them. These mechs are just the best. The meta...blah, blah.

That said, anyone else think it's kind of boring? If so what can be done in terms of CW? Or does this just come down to the Crow and Timber have always been the best, and the BK is the best IS mech atm and the only way that will change is via another balance pass? Curious what others' take on this is or if what I experienced was an outlier.

[iLLcapitan]

On clan side I see dakkahawks all the time, my clandrop consisted of 4 EBJs, HBRs are to be found as well.

On IS side, BLK is common for sure, but GRHs, QKDs, Oxides, Battlemasters, on and on - all viable.

You should play more to see it all

[Widowmaker1981]

Clans: TBRs, EBJs, HBRs, ACHs all in large numbers. ADRs, WHKs, DWFs, MDDs in smaller numbers but still there.

IS: too many to list. I dont even think BLKs are very good for CW, due to the low as hell mounts, i take WHMs or GHRs instead.

[2fast2stompy]

260 ton limit means you can bring a timberwolf (best power-to-tonnage clan mech) up to three times. 3 TBR leaves you with 35 tons, meaning you can also bring any light. 2 TBR means you have exactly the tonnage left for 2 Stormcrows (best clan medium). This means you have as much bang for your buck in terms of firepower for solo drops.
In group drops, things are a little different, and HBR and MDD are common depending on the map.

On IS side, it's basically the same thing with Black Knights and Thunderbolts, people just bring the most pewpew they can fit because people approach solo CW as just trying to rack up the most damage and die as little as possible before they lose.
It's also why brawlers are almost completely absent from solo drops and very common in group drops.

Mech skills also contribute. You need 3 variants to level a mech, so people just take the 3 mechs they have anyway, and since Hellbringers and Thunderbolts are great mechs, you can drop 4 of them and have 4 leveled up mechs for CW much sooner than you would with different mechs.

[Bud Crue]

iLLcapitan, on 14 April 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

On clan side I see dakkahawks all the time, my clandrop consisted of 4 EBJs, HBRs are to be found as well.

On IS side, BLK is common for sure, but GRHs, QKDs, Oxides, Battlemasters, on and on - all viable.

You should play more to see it all

I want to play more, but with kids and commute I get about 1-1.5 hrs in the evening when I can play. That's if no work, activities, etc. get in the way. Unit mates tend to prefer group quick play as well. Now that spring is here I have even less time and most weekends are shot too. Damn reality always messes up game time.

[Bud Crue]

2fast2stomy,

I get WHY people bring the mechs I mentioned (see my OP), I just wonder if their prevalence (or not) is a bad thing?

If my admittedly limited observation is in fact the norm, then it seems to me that the game needs a mechanism to encourage variety in CW. I mean if dropping in the same mech over and over is your thing, that should be fine, but it seems like that would get boring imho. Boring is kinda bad in an entertainment product like a video game.

So I am just wondering if others are seeing this sort of 'deck monotony' (obviously at least a couple people above aren't seeing this so maybe it is a non-issue) and if they too think some mechanism should be in place to encourage variety in drop decks and what such a mechanism might be. Maybe something like an option to have random drop deck weights, etc.

Edited by Bud Crue, 14 April 2016 - 07:13 AM.

[2fast2stompy]

Like I said, it's a a symptom of pugs more than CW itself. Units, while being labeled meta-riding tryhards that ruin the game for everyone, actually have more variety in their drops because they aren't 12 lone wolves and can actually coordinate their drops. You also see some pretty sub-optimal builds because working together more than makes up for it against pugs. They still field TBRs and Black Knights, because why wouldn't they, but they have a greater variety in mechs and builds.

There certainly is a flaw with the system, since there is literally no point in bringing 4 mediums, for example. If there was a one-chassis-per drop limit, or a class weight limit, or some benefit to not using up your tonnage 100% (whether that is some multiplier to earnings, or maps/modes where walking down a lane and shooting isn't all you do), there would probably be more variety, but even then, there is a different problem, namely some mechs simply being superior to everything, while some are almost useless.

The resizing and requirkening that will come in a few months, and the new heat/power system might change that, though. I have some hope, at least.

Edited by 2fast2stompy, 14 April 2016 - 08:08 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Clan Side, I bring 3 Hellbringers and a Hunchback IIC.

[Aiden Skye]

One of my favorite CW drop decks is 3 snipercats and a badder. Not the most firepower but really fun to harass and poke from every conceivable angle.

[SneekiBreeki]

4x Hellbies here (not for the performance in itself as much as for my affection to that chassis).

Dammit somebody should make a model kit out of that omni already. ;w; *Throws le money at the screen*

[Lukoi Banacek]

Your anecdote lacks sample size.

The best mechs are likely the more prevalent mechs but its in no way as bad you describe.

With quirks being what they are, and the value of long range weapons in many of the maps, I see quite a few more mechs for each side than just a TBR, SCR and BLKNT.

Lights I regularly see ravens, FS9, oxides, panthers, locusts and wolfhounds on the IS side. Clans are probably actually the most limited here as I rarely see anything outside of ACH/J2C which is a testament to the weakness of the MLX and in a tangenital way, the strength of their heavies. I see fewer commandos and spiders.

Mediums, its an open book for IS....even the Trenchbucket makes appearances. For Clan, there are fewer choices, but most get played outside if the IFR which again is about its weaknesses in comparison. Since most matches dont seem to be pure cap races anymore, the IFR's lone and limited advantage of tanky speed versus the other Clan mediums is largely irrelevant.

Heavies are again wide open although I see less Dragons (and old fave for me) than Id like and for the Clans, all have a role for the most part.

Clan assaults are an area I see some limitations. I just dont see a ton of them in use. Given the mobility of Clan heavies, I daresay most players dont feel an incentive to play them but in IS land, again you see most of them in play. Atlas for the breaching, KGC and MAL for the dakka, the Wubshee for the wubs etc.

In my experience, IS decs tend to spread across all four weightclasses and Clan towards the first three or middle two. Given the strength of their 65 tonners and the 260 tonnage cap, I think its a natural way to approach CW fights now that objective races are less prevalent.

[JasonIIC]

I actually change my deck a lot. I like two hunchback iic's and two timbersfor a decent mix of support and brawling, but sometimes it's fun to drop a cheetah after a dire just to feel thin again.

[DannDruid]

Limited drop decks are also a function of the expense of modules-12 million for seismic and radar deprivation plus weapon mods means that many people set up one 4 mech deck that is as universally acceptable as possible so that they don't get their choices criticized or slow up 11 other people rearranging their modules.

[JasonIIC]

DannDruid, on 16 April 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Limited drop decks are also a function of the expense of modules-12 million for seismic and radar deprivation plus weapon mods means that many people set up one 4 mech deck that is as universally acceptable as possible so that they don't get their choices criticized or slow up 11 other people rearranging their modules.

This

[MischiefSC]

I have 7 full sets of radar derp, Seismic, LPL and ML modules.

7 sets.

That has consumed as much cbills as over 25 mechs.

25.

That's the problem. I've dumped over 200 million cbills into modules, more like 250. I still can't pre-equip two full decks of mechs to switch around. I go with 7, and that have to juggled into 260 tons.

That's a big part of it. I have the cbills to buy modules but at this point I'm so irked with the expense I don't wanna. I'd rather play something else than grind cbills for another Seismic.

Module costs are a big barrier to flexibility and participation in CW.

[Aiden Skye]

DannDruid, on 16 April 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Limited drop decks are also a function of the expense of modules-12 million for seismic and radar deprivation plus weapon mods means that many people set up one 4 mech deck that is as universally acceptable as possible so that they don't get their choices criticized or slow up 11 other people rearranging their modules.

3rd world mechwarrior problems.

[Monkey Lover]

100% of the blame is on Russ for buffing low end clan mechs than at the same time buffing high end clan mechs.

Then they went and did a blanket range nerf on 70+ IS mechs nerfing some of the wosrt IS mechs who were using these extreme quirks to be competitive because of few IS mechs were not balanced.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 16 April 2016 - 03:22 PM.

[Commander Schultz]

TimberWolf87, on 16 April 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:

4x Hellbies here

Same here! I always bring in my four Hellbringers. It's the mech I have the most fun playing with in pug and CW. I would bring the MDD out more, but most of my friends have stopped playing mwo, and being a LRM as a solo drop doesn't really work well with me.

[Surn]

Structure quirks are not a major factor. If they were armor quirks it might be a different story, but as it stands IS mechs are just not on par ton per ton. Remember, the structure quirks just balance one clan alpha, otherwise everything would die in one shot.
As I stands, IS mechs just lose all their weapons and run around as an underpowered zombie or a stick. It isn't armor.Since the Feb patch, my Kurita loyalist team has lost about 60% of our active members, CW became too unbalanced in favor of the clans.

Edited by MechregSurn, 16 April 2016 - 04:01 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

IHMO

Currently the numbers are due to current game design, such as favoring repeated energy alphas that are hitscan. The current design, even with ghost heat, ignores the Battletech's Heatscale penalties til the pilot is maxed out, penalties that would both slow a mech down and make it less agile, in a similar manner with the current cXL penalties when 1 side torso is destroyed 20% movement penalty, where as the 20% heat penalty would actually be registered on the heat scale.

Even with structural quirks, the IS mechs that would benefit from it the most by utilizing XL engines, it is still not enough, as most mechs are humanoid mechs that do not have the ability to raise their arm-mounted weapons (both Clan/IS mechs). And many of the lower tier mechs lack are short on the weapon hardpoints.

I will also dip into the issue that long range, heavy hitting energy weapons recycle too quickly, allow many energy mechs to just equip just those weapons instead of most carrying a more balanced weapon load, both long range and short range.

Lastly, the current max FW tonnage. Prior to the 260t, it was 265t/260t, before than it was 265t/250t, then the previous setup was is250/c240, then before that it started off as 240tons. Prior to tonnage min/max it was by weight class, A/H/M/L.

The tonnage setup is something that should be changed more often, both high and low. I would like to see the tonnage reduced below 240 for a run, or do it for different theaters.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 16 April 2016 - 05:43 PM.