80 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wait, is this really going on?

As far as meta goes, IS has more options and is generally used more in leagues like MRBC than Clan mechs because of that, that isn't to say Clans don't have some solid mechs because overall Clan mechs have more solid performers, but when it comes to peak performers, it often sways towards IS a bit.

[Wintersdark]

Bud Crue, on 15 April 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

But on a serious note, it seems to me that the 4x -and really all the Cataphracts- is exemplary of the bigger problem that many others above have pointed too: current and future obsolescence. As the timeline moves on and new tech is introduced, a lot of our mechs are just going to be worthless in the current game. Cataphracts (not just the 4x) show that the future is already here. They aren't just obsolete when compared to a clan mech having a similar load out, but are obsolete compared to other IS mechs (Marauder and Warhammer are better in just about every way).

This isn't really related to age, though. In the CTF's case, it IS old, but it's issues are physical design. There are lots of newer mechs with the same design issues.

Tech upgrades shouldn't matter, because people will just slot in newer tech.

Quirks are the solution here, insofar as they're also the problem in many cases. The MAD has great physical geometry for it's hardpoint locations and size, but not the whammy. It's just pretty heavily quirked. Fixing quirks on some of the older mechs that have less is the solution, then.

It just became more apparent with the addition of clan tech (which has simultaneously faced a huge list of ongoing blanket nerfs to help counter this as well, so it's not all power creep).

Anyways, the crux of this is that I'm reluctant to point to this all as power creep/obsolescence of old mechs, rather it's just that some of the first mechs added where very unfortunate physical shapes/sizes, but at that point neither PGI nor us really appreciated how much of an impact mechs size and shape would be.

This is why we're having The Great Rescaling (to cover one aspect of the problem), and a major component of why they've added quirks in the first place. Moving forward, though, I'm not really sure that mechs just get "better" shapes exclusively... It's just that we had the misfortune to get some of the worst ones first.

[Bud Crue]

Wintersdark,

I think we are saying the same thing as far as the Cataphract goes. Like I said above to me the problem with the phract is the hardpoints (you call out its physical design, similar issue I think). Still, in the end it may not be obsolete because of new "tech" but it is obsolete because newer mechs can have the same load outs but with better hardpoints.

I just think that when compared to similar load outs (mixed ballistic and lasers) that can be built on the Mad or the Hammer that they are better in every way over the phract. I just don't see quirks saving the phract unless they were to the point of being absurd. To my mind, it would take a complete remodel of the design, whereby the ballistic points are moved way up to the shoulders and/or the arms moved up as well for it to compete. Yes PGI has said they are rescaling, but I have heard nothing to suggest that they are considering such extensive remodeling.

My negativity tells me though that this sort of thing will simply be exacerbated with new tech and additional mechs. Guess we shall see.

[Wintersdark]

Bud Crue, on 15 April 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

Wintersdark,

I think we are saying the same thing as far as the Cataphract goes. Like I said above to me the problem with the phract is the hardpoints (you call out its physical design, similar issue I think). Still, in the end it may not be obsolete because of new "tech" but it is obsolete because newer mechs can have the same load outs but with better hardpoints.

I just think that when compared to similar load outs (mixed ballistic and lasers) that can be built on the Mad or the Hammer that they are better in every way over the phract. I just don't see quirks saving the phract unless they were to the point of being absurd. To my mind, it would take a complete remodel of the design, whereby the ballistic points are moved way up to the shoulders and/or the arms moved up as well for it to compete. Yes PGI has said they are rescaling, but I have heard nothing to suggest that they are considering such extensive remodeling.

I don't like to say "bad hardpoints" because that implies the count/types of hardpoints are poor, rather than the actual location of the hardpoints. The phract's problems are geometry.

I imagine they're not remodeling the phract, at least not enough. They simply can't: It's going to have low hardpoints no matter what, because that's what the Cataphract is. They're not going to make it a different mech, nor should they. This was inevitable from day one, though, and not for any reasons that should require negativity or suspicion. Mechs are all shaped differently, and shape matters.

Quote

My negativity tells me though that this sort of thing will simply be exacerbated with new tech and additional mechs. Guess we shall see.

Well, we can see, simply by looking at what mechs are available. PGI isn't making them up whole cloth, so we know exactly what's on the table.


A problem they run in to, though, and moreso now than anything, is that we've hit (imho) a saturation point with mechs. There's very few new mechs that can be added that bring anything new to the game. They're just different configurations of the same build options. There's some that have geometry that's just better, but not very many anymore.

I mean, look at the tier lists. Just use IS mechs for now, as they've got the greatest range and longest history.

Assault:
Assaults
Tier 1: Banshee BNC-3M, Battlemaster BLR-2C, Stalker STK-4N, Battlemaster BLR-1G

Tier 2: Battlemaster BLR-3S, Stalker STK-3H, Stalker STK-5S, Mauler MAL-MX90, King Crab KGC-000, Banshee BNC-3E, Stalker Misery, Atlas AS7-S, Atlas AS7-D-DC

That's a who's who of quite old chassis.

Heavies:
Tier 1: Quickdraw QKD-5K, Black Knight BL-6-KNT, Black Knight BL-7-KNT-L

Tier 2: Grasshopper GHR-5H, Grasshopper GHR-5P, Quickdraw QKD-4G, Black Knight BL-6B-KNT, Black Knight BL-7-KNT, Jagermech JM6-DD, Thunderbolt Top Dog, Orion ON1-V, Catapult Jester, Warhammer WHM-6D, Thunderbolt TDR-9SE, Marauder MAD-3R, Rifleman RFL-5D, Rifleman RFL-3N

Lots of newer mechs here, but even so there's good representation from old mechs (JM6, TDR, CPTL, ON1, QKD).

Mediums?

Tier 1: Blackjack BJ-3, Blackjack BJ-1X

Tier 2: Enforcer ENF-4R, Griffin GRF-3M, Wolverine WVR-6K, Hunchback HBK-4P, Blackjack BJ-1, Blackjack BJ-1DC, Blackjack Arrow, Griffin Sparky, Hunchback HBK-4J, Hunchback HBK-4SP, Griffin GRF-2N, Shadowhawk SHD-2D2, Crab CRB-27B, Trebuchet TBT-5J, Shadowhawk SHD-2H

The Enforcer and Crab are new, but everything else here is pre-Clan and quite dated.

Lights?


Tier 1: Jenner Oxide, Firestarter FS9-S

Tier 2: Spider SDR-5K, Wolfhound WLF-2, Firestarter FS9-A, Firestarter FS9-H, Raven RVN-4X, Firestarter FS9-K, Raven RVN-2X, Jenner JR7-F, Wolfhound WLF-1A, Wolfhound WLF-1, Panther PNT-10K
This tends to bend a bit newer with the Wolfhounds and Panthers, but there's still Jenners, a Raven, and Firestarters (more "medium age" there).



All in all, this is actually pretty promising. There's a heck of a lot of old mechs in this list.

I think the "obsolescence over time" is more confirmation bias than fact, as there are a few older mechs that are just bad (and where bad back then too!) but there's lots of newer mechs that are kind of poor too.

This is reminiscent of how people like to say "PGI always released mechs OP then nerfs them!" because that happens with some mechs... but far more are released underpowered than overpowered. Ironically, statistically speaking with a given new mech preorder, you're more likely to get an underpowered mech than overpowered.

The few outliers just make it look bad.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Top speed is a % increase over the stock engine size.

Granted in the current era of 5/8 clan omnis the IS gets screwed a bit but that's been the rule since they added engine caps in closed beta (I miss my XL350 hunchie 4SP).

[TercieI]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 15 April 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

Top speed is a % increase over the stock engine size.

Granted in the current era of 5/8 clan omnis the IS gets screwed a bit but that's been the rule since they added engine caps in closed beta (I miss my XL350 hunchie 4SP).

Only as a baseline. Lots of adjustments and variations. And there need to be more, frankly. Balance is way more important than some lore reason.

[Gyrok]

LORD ORION, on 14 April 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

LOL
IS 15 tons 7 slots
Clam 12 tons 6 slots

LOL!

15 damage and 2k m/s velocity versus 15 damage and 2k m/s velocity.

You are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Since there will never be mixed tech...you might as well forget weapon tonnage as an issue...

[Narcissistic Martyr]

TercieI, on 15 April 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Only as a baseline. Lots of adjustments and variations. And there need to be more, frankly. Balance is way more important than some lore reason.

No lore reason at all just a PGI decision so I agree with you.

[Saltychipmunk]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that you can run a hunchback iic with this set up? and have jump jets?

id say the fact that clan gauss weighs so much less is a pretty huge deal.

hell 6 tons alone is basically 100% of your gauss ammo, thats pretty darn huge

Edited by Saltychipmunk, 15 April 2016 - 09:10 AM.

[STEF_]

TercieI, on 15 April 2016 - 06:34 AM, said:

It's a silly comparison, then. The CTF is in a bad place, generally and really isn't great at dual gauss. If you want to talk dual gauss, compare a JM6 and an EBJ. It's a fairly nuanced comparison, actually, considering JM6 quirks. And build your dual gauss EBJ right. It should be asymmetrical. That's one of its advantages.

It's not so silly since the OP wanted to compare a bad IS mech (with a bad loadout for that mech) vs a good clan mech.

At least Corrado is suggesting a better loadout for that.

The entire OP is silly, tho.

Is vs clan threads are sooooooooooooooo old and boring

[Wintersdark]

LORD ORION, on 14 April 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

LOL
IS 15 tons 7 slots
Clam 12 tons 6 slots

Well, for the purposes of this discussion, also:

10% faster cooldown, 15% further range, 20% further velocity for the tonnage/slot difference.

Edit: The gap between things like this (cgauss/is Gauss) is bad because it necessitates quirks like the above. However, because quirks like the above are a thing, you can't just say cgauss is flat out better. It's way more complicated than that, as the mechs mounting cgauss don't have those quirks.

Edited by Wintersdark, 15 April 2016 - 10:03 AM.

[Corrado]

TercieI, on 15 April 2016 - 06:34 AM, said:

And build your dual gauss EBJ right. It should be asymmetrical. That's one of its advantages.

I'm up for asymmetrical builds, BUT i never ever put a gauss rifle in the torso. used to run many 2gauss glass cannons in the past. now my few gauss mechs runs gauss rifles in arms like Direwolf, Warhawk, King Crab, rarely the firebrand.

even if i think the IIC hunchback is one of the best 2gauss platforms (considering weight), i rarely run it with 2 gauss because it can't simply take any fire. in any mech, if i face a gauss mauler i know it will just be a free kill.

not saying when sneaking a gauss mauler in a oxide, popping off the gauss rifles takes a really short time.

and anyway the warhawk-C can mount 2xGauss, 2xCERML and still have IS level quirks.

Edited by Corrado, 15 April 2016 - 01:37 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

@OP - you do realize that engine limits are based on stock engine ratings, yes? You cherry-picked the one CTF that comes stock with a tiny engine, which in turn caps its max engine rating at a far lower limit than any of the others.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Wintersdark, on 15 April 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Well, for the purposes of this discussion, also:

10% faster cooldown, 15% further range, 20% further velocity for the tonnage/slot difference.

Edit: The gap between things like this (cgauss/is Gauss) is bad because it necessitates quirks like the above. However, because quirks like the above are a thing, you can't just say cgauss is flat out better. It's way more complicated than that, as the mechs mounting cgauss don't have those quirks.

I run both the a dual goose Swaguarand dual goose Jager. The Jager-S dual gooses better.

The Swaguar with cooldown module puts out gauss slugs every 5.25s. The Jager puts out gauss slugs every 4.5s. That's an almost entire point of DPS higher and with the Jager having cockpit level weapons....

[oldradagast]

Davegt27, on 14 April 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

I bought a Cataphract 4X because I love dakka but as soon as I saw how slow it was I sold it

Probably only had it for a day

This was last year before the quirks and the structure stuff

But even now it would be a hard buy it’s just toooo slow for a heavy

It also has probably the lowest mounted large ballistics in the game, which means many of your shots will hit the dirt. I sold mine, too, after too much frustration with it.

[Johnny Z]

Mcgral18, on 14 April 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

100% functionally identical


Aside from being 3 tons lighter and 1 Crit smaller


So, better, simply put

Ya but clans are supposed to be better because some players don't like balance and fair play.

+1 for easy mode.

Wintersdark, on 15 April 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Well, for the purposes of this discussion, also:

10% faster cooldown, 15% further range, 20% further velocity for the tonnage/slot difference.

Edit: The gap between things like this (cgauss/is Gauss) is bad because it necessitates quirks like the above. However, because quirks like the above are a thing, you can't just say cgauss is flat out better. It's way more complicated than that, as the mechs mounting cgauss don't have those quirks.

But how come they get 7.5 tons of CASE free and a no blow XL? Does the Clan Gauss really need to weight less and take up less space? Really?

See this is what happens when easy mode is in game, its so easy to disrespect it.

Balance is really close at the moment though! Just making a point.

Also to the topic title, "I don't know I can face palm pretty hard." Like #7 in this video.

Edited by Johnny Z, 15 April 2016 - 04:51 PM.

[Deathlike]

Johnny Z, on 15 April 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

But how come they get 7.5 tons of CASE free and a no blow XL? Does the Clan Gauss really need to weight less and take up less space? Really?

You can only put in 1 ton worth of CASE (at most) in an IS mech (the rules suck, but they are what they are), and how the heck did you calculate 7.5 tons of CASE? There's only 8 sections of a mech - 2 of them being totally useless for that (head+CT).

Please stop writing inaccurate information.

[1453 R]

It's JohnnyZ. He's the IS Gyrok; wildly overblown and outright misfactual slams against Clan tech are what he does.

Anyways.

In terms of Gauss Cauldron-Born vs. Gauss CTF-4X...first of all, since when has dual gauss been relevant again? I'd thought the meta had shifted away from dual Gauss on anything but Whales or similarly oversized fatbros in favor of ganged medium autocannons, SRMs, and/or the ever-popular Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Laser Vomit Meta.

Second of all....actually, Wintersdark has mostly covered it. Cherry-picking, confirmation bias, fundamental nature of the franchise...there's a hundred reasons why the CTF-4X gets dumped on, none of which really have to do with Piranha being bad people or CLANZ being OP. Cataphracts are going to be knuckle-dragging brutes because that's just what they are. Well, that and horrible Capellan abominations that must be purged with righteous Light, but that's for another thread.

Really...how's that Summoner to Marauder comparison look? Or Summoner to Grasshopper/Black Knight, to be a bit more on point and semi-similar to possible Summoner loadouts. Either way...as much as I figure the Summoner has more of a bad rep than it warrants, I know I wouldn't want to go against a top-end Black Knight or Marauder in any Summoner I have ever built or can conceive of building.

[Wintersdark]

Johnny Z, on 15 April 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

But how come they get 7.5 tons of CASE free and a no blow XL?

Only 1t of case is useful, and even that is only useful in rare circumstances. Theres a reason no competent IS builds run case.

Quote

Does the Clan Gauss really need to weight less and take up less space? Really?

It's a major reason (the XL being the other) that we have to have these stupid IS quirks. I already said this in this thread, just above your post.

And, of course, because those are the stats it has, and needs to have to avoid breaking stock mech builds which (whether you agree or not) is something that's important to PGI.

It's unfortunate that things like that make balancing more complicated, but that's how it is.

Edited by Wintersdark, 15 April 2016 - 09:41 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Saltychipmunk, on 15 April 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

Has anyone mentioned the fact that you can run a hunchback iic with this set up? and have jump jets?

id say the fact that clan gauss weighs so much less is a pretty huge deal.

hell 6 tons alone is basically 100% of your gauss ammo, thats pretty darn huge

How many non-assault Clan omnimechs can run this loadout? The Timby is a 75 ton heavy and it needs to strip serious armor to get there. Summoner can't. HBR can't. Mad Dog would require serious armor reduction. Heck, half the Clan assaults can't do it.

How many IS heavies can run dual gauss despite the much heavier weapon? Quite a few now.

Clan gauss weight is only a big deal on IIC mechs, but the Hunchy the currently the only mech that can really take advantage of this.