50 replies to this topic

[Cyborne Elemental]

Yep, these stomps and loss streaks are getting pretty obnoxious.

Very rarely do I see games come down to being close games, very rarely.
Its almost always a 12-0 12-1 12-3 stomp, game after game.

Map bias is as much a part of it as player builds, and just random luck.

Whatever, don't even care anymore I think both the Tier system and MM need some more tweaking.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

If you're ever in a match that ends in a stomp, look at the body language and the reactions of everyone involved.

Its almost like the matchmaker put 12 wolves on one team and 12 sheep on the other. One team will act like wolves they'll be aggressive and be all for a fight because they expect to dominate and win, that's what they're used to. The reactions and body language (mech posture) of the other team will be what one would expect from sheep. They'll run or hide and not offer up any resistance because they're used to being wrecked and don't expect or believe they can win. The outcome won't be surprising.

It doesn't have anything to do with pushing. One counter to a push is a firing line and it works wonders. One might say it comes down to attitude. One team wants to fight because they expect to win. The other team wants to run and hide because they expect to lose and immediately go into a defensive posture / damage control when they get pressed.

There are games where one team pushes directly into a firing line and is obliterated. Being aggressive and pushing isn't everything & I don't think it explains a lot of the stomps that happen in the pug queue.

[Trauglodyte]

Novakaine, on 16 April 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

My humble lamentations to the all seeing Mechlords.
Please make it stop.
Yeah pugs I know, but really how hard is it?

This is how I feel most games when I'm driving my Atlas



I'm Marky Mark and everyone else is Antonio Sabato/Lou Diamond Phillips hiding 700m behind me, all huddled up behind a pillar or building. Yep, I'm dead cause I pushed at the right time on the right path just the way I should have done. But, the game ends with us getting donkey punched with a bunch of turds bitching over comes about how bad everyone else played. Makes the Traug sad!

Edited by Trauglodyte, 16 April 2016 - 02:39 PM.

[Novakaine]

Paigan, on 16 April 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Extremely hard.
Or how naive are you?

The outcome of a match is determined by a LOT of variables:

- Player skill (and what IS skill? Not just aim, but knowing the map, playing in a team, etc. How should an algorithm determine all that?)
- The Mech
- The loadout
- The Mech in a specific team
- The loadout in a specific team
- The Mech on a specific map (right down to hardpoint location)
- The loadout on a specific map
- Tactical decisions (flank unlucky and half the team is dead. No one's fault, just bad luck)
- and probably a dozend more factors
- the player's form on the day
- chance in general

I always find that whining so immensely naive. All that is supposed be managed by an algorithm based on too few statistics of a too small player base?

And you can't even adjust the balancing details proberly (e.g. introduce recharging shields or whatever to make tactical mistakes more forgiving) because then the lore zealots will go ballistic.
Everything has to be kept as close to the moronic BT original rules as possible.

How can anyone with healthy common sense post ONE picuture of a stomp and just say "stop it"?


From my experience, the matches are PRETTY evenly distributed.
Very often from 12-6 to 12-11, sometimes 12-1 to 12-3.
Overall, it's very balanced.

Stop whining.

Lamentations are different from whining you obtuse little wolf cub.
Funny looking at caption in your sig though.
At any rate begone little cub.

[Novakaine]

MischiefSC, on 16 April 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Unlikely. Novakaine always runs LRMS, probably caught the poor ******* in the open and the sucker tried to run or something, got rained down before he could fire a shot.

Well yes a Mauler with two AC/5 and a L Laser also.
But my arty strike was what finished him off.
I was the enemy teams 11th kill
Fastest match ever I think.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 16 April 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Unlikely. Novakaine always runs LRMS, probably caught the poor ******* in the open and the sucker tried to run or something, got rained down before he could fire a shot.

Yeah, if you want to really win regularly in the solo queue you need to play mechs with builds that can carry.

That's not LRMs.

[Exilyth]

MM is [redacted] this weekend, way too much derp.

There are three ways to fix this:
1) increase global average intelligence levels by e.g. preventing people of low intellgence from procreating.
2) abduct the person responsible for the MM and replace them with Thomas Marik. Or another competent clone.
3) Urge PGI to look into improving the matchmaking system and the metrics used to match players into teams.

Unfortunably, 1) and 2) are morally questionable, so we have to stick with 3)

*sigh*

Edited by Exilyth, 16 April 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[Mavairo]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 April 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

CGL makes it impossible to "stop".

The overwhelming effect of focus fire means that the more often than not, it's going to be a steamroll, or at least look like one. Thing is, I've had those 12-1 losses, where the entire enemy team was 1-3 shots away from dying also, but because of a number of factors, didn't.

And sadly, the overwhelming decider for victory in this game, BALLS, is not something MM can measure. Possibly they could hotmap every single players play tendencies and try to project off of "who spent most time hiding on maps", but reality as ALL smart players use cover.

Team that actually mans up and pushes almost always wins. Ain't no way for a MM to quantify that.

Too ******* true.
I got myself to T3 and immediately sunk down again, because lo and behold the Cowards Qued up en masse.

The second people take fire in this game from even a small laser they cower in utter mortal terror.
Then they get stomped 12 to 0 and wonder why.
Or they'll start a push, then decide to turn around, and leave the few mechs that are committed to die. (Guess what group I'm in)
Then invariably the last guy to die, is some scrub with an LRM 20, 15 and 5 on his DDC.

It's like their Meekness in real life, carries right over to videogames, seamlessly.

Edited by Mavairo, 16 April 2016 - 04:41 PM.

[TercieI]

Novakaine, on 16 April 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

My humble lamentations to the all seeing Mechlords.
Please make it stop.
Yeah pugs I know, but really how hard is it?

LRM Mauler?

#partoftheproblem

[Torric]

Lozruet Gravemind, on 16 April 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I especially LOVE seeing 85+ Ton Assault players with below 250 damage. Ive had matches where two assaults, Atlas and a Direwolf, both didnt even break 70 Damage if I remember correctly.

Yes, because the slowest mechs are not the ones most depending on capable teammates... or at least teammates that are not intent on putting as much distance between themselves and their assaults or have the fixed idea to start a counter nascar while the opposing nascar is already upon your assaults...

It is much easier to end up with an embarassing score as a slow assault mech, because you cannot only get screwed over by the enemy team, but also by your own.

Edited by Torric, 16 April 2016 - 04:55 PM.

[KodiakGW]

Ah, the XP bar strikes again.

Exilyth, on 16 April 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

3) Urge PGI to look into improving the matchmaking system and the metrics used to match players into teams.

Unfortunably, 1) and 2) are morally questionable, so we have to stick with 3)

*sigh*

Best choice, but I doubt they will ever admit anything is wrong. When a new player can go from T5 to T3 in a handful of games, as some professed they were able to do, there is a big problem. No way you have things unlocked that you need to survive with veteran players. But, I need to test this for myself.

I'd like to add...
4) Go back to 8v8. Allows matchmaker to make better matches before "opening the floodgates" to make a match. Also allows "Carry Harder" players to "CARRY HARDER" properly. Also stops players advancing up tiers who do 900+ damage with only one kill for the team in an assault mech, and profess that they are the "CARRY HARDER" player. Umm, no. Means you like to spread damage all over the place, and not make the kill shots (XL checks, leg low leg armor mechs, core from behind, etc.) which lead to a victory.


Edit: Yep. Just had another wonderful matchup. Guess who solo killed the MAL and did most damage to the dead DW. Time to finish setting up a Twitch channel so this will be public record. It seems like every time I go opposite the guy in red (he plays mostly laggy lights), I get a team like this. Would have been sweet 4x XP.

Edited by KodiakGW, 16 April 2016 - 08:32 PM.

[Mavairo]

Torric, on 16 April 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

Yes, because the slowest mechs are not the ones most depending on capable teammates... or at least teammates that are not intent on putting as much distance between themselves and their assaults or have the fixed idea to start a counter nascar while the opposing nascar is already upon your assaults...

It is much easier to end up with an embarassing score as a slow assault mech, because you cannot only get screwed over by the enemy team, but also by your own.

I actually have more trouble in the Heavies... People will at least follow the Atlas ...sometimes.

The animals I mean bullet sponges, I mean potatoes... I mean fellow team mates won't with a Heavy.

[wanderer]

Novakaine, on 16 April 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

Well yes a Mauler with two AC/5 and a L Laser also.
But my arty strike was what finished him off.
I was the enemy teams 11th kill
Fastest match ever I think.

You clearly haven't been a two-minute no-huddle Frozen City stomp.

No, seriously.

In any case, the real reason that happens is because people who do bad aren't actually pushed by their incompetence downwards into lower tiers where they should be more likely not used as seals to club. They're instead carried upwards into higher tiers, and the second they're Tier 3, it's a situation ripe for harvesting by people who actually can shoot.

Any system that rewards incompetence encourages stompings by inflating the perceived effectiveness of the pilots it sticks in the MM.

FFS, I've seen people unironically piloting a Locust "armed" only with TAG and 12-flamer Novas being put up against EmP and 228 veterans. Tier 3, ladies and gentlemen. In a system that even tried, these people would have been stuck in Tier 4-5 and stayed there, where they belong.

[Nyte Kitsune]

Nova and I both favor LRM's, we're of the few in HHoD that are quite good in LRM mechs and actually use them regularly, especially when people say "No LRM mechs!" then we both bring one and rock!

...and what do you mean Terciel "LRM Mauler?" You realize, Maulers are built to carry them, and yes.. One of mine is a LRM mech, specifically 4 LRM 10 W/Artemis, 2 ER LL and 4 MG's, Its quite effective.

Also, to Nova's original comment, I feel for you bud, I've had a lot of those matches while pugging too, and I agree, it's getting out of control. Sadly the MM doesn't pit skill vs. skill, It just uses the ridiculously inaccurate Tier system, which also has nothing to do with skill. At least 1/2 of the T3-T1 players play like they should still be in T5 and only got to T1 because they just started their accounts and got carried to T1 (No offense to those that actually did this and actually are good, but admit it, you know I'm right here).

Edited by Nyte Kitsune, 16 April 2016 - 05:59 PM.

[Mawai]

Troll post from an idiot it seems.

Odd ... since you have been around since the beginning and presumably have played a lot by now .. certainly enough to know that stomps are usually the result of not playing like a team rather than any contribution from individual players.

Also, if you want a bunch of random players to play more like a team you have two choices ..
- stay quiet and pray
- speak up, suggest and encourage

I can tell you from experience which works better and it doesn't involve invoking the almighty.

If you didn't say anything on coms or type anything in chat then the result you posted is exactly what you deserved. If you did try to organize and no one paid attention then c'est la vie and better luck next time.

[Novakaine]

Mawai, on 16 April 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

Troll post from an idiot it seems.

Odd ... since you have been around since the beginning and presumably have played a lot by now .. certainly enough to know that stomps are usually the result of not playing like a team rather than any contribution from individual players.

Also, if you want a bunch of random players to play more like a team you have two choices ..
- stay quiet and pray
- speak up, suggest and encourage

I can tell you from experience which works better and it doesn't involve invoking the almighty.

If you didn't say anything on coms or type anything in chat then the result you posted is exactly what you deserved. If you did try to organize and no one paid attention then c'est la vie and better luck next time.

Calling me an idiot?
Really how kind of you.
#1. I always run my mouth on comms to good effect.
#2. Refer to some of my previous post on being a capable pug commander.
#3. I'll trump you one if I'm a idiot then you're a complete and utter moron.
I suppose I should be more of a christian adult here, but for you i'll make a special dispensation.
Boob.

[Sir Wulfrick]

I remember maybe 12-18 months ago looking at a horde of screen captures that I'd taken of match score screens and I think I worked out that for me at least about 15% of matches were close finishes, i.e. the number of mechs alive on each team was within 2-3 of each other.

Pretty sure you could use the predicted match outcome in a PuG as some sort of random number generator.

[wanderer]

Novakaine, on 16 April 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

Boob.

Excuse me, did you mean to turn this topic towards K-Town?

[Novakaine]

Apologies.
I never take uncalled for insult very well.
Sometimes my inner hoodie slip out.

[Johnny Z]

Mawai, on 16 April 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

Troll post from an idiot it seems.

Odd ... since you have been around since the beginning and presumably have played a lot by now .. certainly enough to know that stomps are usually the result of not playing like a team rather than any contribution from individual players.

Also, if you want a bunch of random players to play more like a team you have two choices ..
- stay quiet and pray
- speak up, suggest and encourage

I can tell you from experience which works better and it doesn't involve invoking the almighty.

If you didn't say anything on coms or type anything in chat then the result you posted is exactly what you deserved. If you did try to organize and no one paid attention then c'est la vie and better luck next time.

You deserve a prize for being this wrong.

Every stomp I have ever seen was the result of some players on a team basically throwing the match on purpose or being way out of their league as in being a newbie. Every single stomp. Yet an experienced player like you comes and says it is the teams fault and not individual players. Comepletely falsely.

Troll me on this if you want but every match will show 2 or 3 players in a stomp did less than 100 damage. Which means your WRONG that it isn't individual players.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 April 2016 - 07:48 PM.