116 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Sister RAbbi, on 19 April 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

I'm quite certain I've had missiles in flight (OLD Forest Colony map, 8v8) at a target that disappeared or was destroyed, and locked another target, and those missiles in flight started tracking the new target. MIGHT be I'm wrong here, but I feel VERY strongly that I recall having done exactly that.

In the ancient past (around the time of the Star League I'm suspecting), LRMs use to track whatever target was locked. This means a player use to be able to shoot LRMs, get a lock, and then have the LRMs follow the lock halfway through their flight path. They could even (if you were fast enough) lock one target, shoot LRMs, lose that lock, and then acquire a new lock on someone else and have the in flight LRMs home in on the new target.

However, as typical in war, this technology became lostech and LRMs no longer function in this manner in MW:O. As counter to this, we found a Memory core that contained "extented range TAG".

Sadly, they unlocked from that Memory Core an advanced ECM unit never before seen!

Valar13, on 16 May 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

So when are you marrying LRMs? Because this is at least the second impassioned defense of them I've seen from you.

He's right though. Standing in back with LRMs, not really participating in the fight, and counting on your entire team to get locks strictly so you can deal damage... is probably the least effective way I can think of to use LRMs. (Minus shooting them within 180m or outside of 1000m of course.)

LRMs are most effective around 600-200m, with locks acquired by oneself (often in a hit and fade style). However, this doesn't exclude that they can be used effectively as one closes to engagement on targets a teammate is fighting against as a team boosting support weapon.

LRMs are about utility, as much as they are about damage. They can "scare" a target back into cover (much faster than direct fire weapons even). They can assist an ally while you are unable to get a line of sight for yourself. In a crowded pass, they can be used to effectively shoot over teammates in a safe manner to aid in pushing the enemy out of said pass. Etc.

I know I typically use LRMs in a couple of different ways. My most common use of LRMs is to use them as I approach a target with more direct weapons. Another is to use them while attempting to support an ally and getting into position to help with my direct fire weapons (they are never alone). The last most typical use my LRMs will see being used for is when my mech is badly damaged and about to drop. Instead of just charging and dieing, I will retreat and rely more heavily on indirect fire and teammate locks. (Because me being dead is less useful in that situation.)

Despite common belief, effective use of LRMs do require skill. Against higher skilled opponents, they can require even more skill than any other weapon in the game. (Or, as counter, against lower skilled opponents, "lock and click the button".) This very duality of their nature (and the utilitiness of them) is why LRMs have such a varied and undeserved reputation.

Edit: Forgot to mention that LRMs are also useful for setting down traps.
"Yes, close in with me. I'm an LRM boat."
*Sits there with only an LRM10, rest of the weaponry is all close range*
"Yes. Come closer my dears..."
*Sets a trap with teammates around you.*

Edited by Tesunie, 16 May 2016 - 09:05 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Tesunie, on 16 May 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

Edit: Forgot to mention that LRMs are also useful for setting down traps.
"Yes, close in with me. I'm an LRM boat."
*Sits there with only an LRM10, rest of the weaponry is all close range*
"Yes. Come closer my dears..."
*Sets a trap with teammates around you.*

That is how I like to play the Archer 5w. 3x LRM5s and 6x SRM4s.
Gotta love people that ignore targeting data

[Tesunie]

Boogie138, on 16 May 2016 - 11:39 PM, said:

That is how I like to play the Archer 5w. 3x LRM5s and 6x SRM4s.
Gotta love people that ignore targeting data

MWO:Mechlab - AS7-S

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Tesunie, on 16 May 2016 - 11:46 PM, said:

MWO:Mechlab - AS7-S

lol.. ah the dreaded Lurm Atlas.
not quite what I had in mind

[Tesunie]

Boogie138, on 17 May 2016 - 12:05 AM, said:

lol.. ah the dreaded Lurm Atlas.
not quite what I had in mind

I could have posted this instead... But it doesn't have as much punch as the Atlas... (I may want to rework it a bit...)

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Tesunie, on 17 May 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

I could have posted this instead... But it doesn't have as much punch as the Atlas... (I may want to rework it a bit...)

I ran something similar. Twin AC10s, and 3x LRM10s. I believe it also had a couple MLs too.

Assaults are probably the only viable way to run a true "mixed purpose" build.

Edited by Boogie138, 17 May 2016 - 12:26 AM.

[Tesunie]

Boogie138, on 17 May 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

I ran something similar. Twin AC10s, and 3x LRM10s. I believe it also had a couple MLs too.

Assaults are probably the only viable way to run a true "mixed purpose" build.

I have a lot of mixed builds. I actually tend to find medium mechs have enough room for a good mix, and the speed and armor to pull it off (depending upon the mix). My Griffin is probably a good example of that.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

^ I can't support that Griffin build at all.
You have 2 of my personal no no's, LRM20 and streaks. Toss in a PPC and you will have built the official "most hated by Boogie" mech of all time.

As always, if it works for you then all I can say is: <o

[Tesunie]

Boogie138, on 17 May 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

^ I can't support that Griffin build at all.
You have 2 of my personal no no's, LRM20 and streaks. Toss in a PPC and you will have built the official "most hated by Boogie" mech of all time.

As always, if it works for you then all I can say is: <o

Oh... don't tempt me.... (Okay. No. I wouldn't place a PPC on that build.)

It's worked very well for me actually, and I do understand LRM20's flaws as well as SSRMs. However, the uniting force here is Artemis. It's a free synergy between the LRM20 (which just about needs Artemis to work due to silly spread, which I might remind was recently reduced) and SSRM systems. I also tend to deal with a lot of fast mechs up close, so the SSRMs help.

I wont say it "couldn't be better", but it's been a charm so far. I do have a fondness for how well it works. I'll also admit, mix builds are not everyone's "cup of tea". I actually find mixed builds to be harder to run, as you have to play off your opponent's weaknesses, rather than only play to your strength. When they work, they can seriously wreck face. When they don't... *fiery death*

I'll say that I prefer mixed builds, mostly because I get tired of being a focused build and "being useless" in some situations. I like to always be useful and never be "in a hopeless situation".

Edited by Tesunie, 17 May 2016 - 10:02 AM.

[Tordin]

Boogie138, on 17 April 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

TLDR

Very easy to use for a new player. Very hard to counter for a new player.

Up in the try hard tier they are still usable, but require MUCH more skill and effort to use.

Yup missiles are useful in any tier. You just have to be familiar with the weapon system. When to engage with lurms and if the enemy got ecm, ams, adapt accordingly. Also bring tag and possibly narc so you dont have to depend on teammates.

[Dee Eight]

Its always important with LRM builds whether as merely an added support weapon (ie, you built a brawler with AC20 and SRMs but need some sort of long range reach) or as a strike cruiser.. to have some sort of gun backup for when your ammo bins are empty. Except for the all missile hardpoint archers, I wouldn't consider SRMs as being the automatic close range backup to LRM. All of my five "boats" have energy weapons also, either large or medium lasers. I saw one guy lastnight though bring a pair of LRM15s with artemis but the backup was THREE machineguns... on a centurion. So 16 tons of launchers, and 1.5 tons of MGs, plus whatever tons of ammo, squeezed into a 50 ton mech. When I got to spectating, all his ammo was empty.

Sometimes the mere presence of an LRM5 can contribute a kill for the team (I finished off a timberwolf last night with one). At the very least you can try and hit EVERY mech on the enemy team with it and pickup the 12 assists achievement. I did that using my griffin 2N with quad LRM5s. Parked myself on a nice high spot with ECM, kept marking targets for folks and got off a hit on each one. The other 11 members got easier kills for themselves and I got some bonus rewards.

Also, a lot need to learn you do NOT need locks to use LRMs. While they're slow, they will go to wherever you put the crosshairs as long as its in their effective range band. Also they trigger the defence cockpit warning chimes that panic folks just the same, and set off AMS systems that give away positions. The software simple reads the code as missiles are destined to connect with a point on the map... if they pass an enemy AMS within range...set it off.... if there happens to be an enemy mech occupying that location on the map...warn its user.

[Tesunie]

Dee Eight, on 17 May 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

Also they trigger the defence cockpit warning chimes that panic folks just the same...

Actually... Blind fired LRMs do not activate any "incoming LRM" warnings. They will still activate AMS though for those mechs that have that equipped.

Just to clarify information.

[Rogue Jedi]

Dee Eight, on 17 May 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

Also, a lot need to learn you do NOT need locks to use LRMs. While they're slow, they will go to wherever you put the crosshairs as long as its in their effective range band. Also they trigger the defence cockpit warning chimes that panic folks just the same, and set off AMS systems that give away positions. The software simple reads the code as missiles are destined to connect with a point on the map... if they pass an enemy AMS within range...set it off.... if there happens to be an enemy mech occupying that location on the map...warn its user.

you only get the incoming missiles if missiles have a lock on you, you do not receive the incoming missiles warning if someone dumbfires LRMs or fires regular SRMs at you

[AllOuttaBubbleGum]

They have been good since beta and are not going away. I hates them. That said, the best thing to do to a lrm boat is to get into smack face range.

[Metus regem]

This topic seems to crop up a lot....

Anyways, LRM's are a low skill floor, low skill ceiling weapon system with a few hard counters to them that more or less render them useless after a cretin point.

ECM, though only a 90m bubble now, effectively makes you impossible to target with out a BAP/CAP/NARC/TAG/(ER)PPC user with in range.

Radar Deprivation, is an instantaneous lock loss once line of sight is broken module, expensive in terms of both GXP and C-bills, but handy.

Cover, every map has it you will just need to learn what cover works, and what cover doesn't.


Now along with those hard counters, there are soft counters.

AMS, think of AMS as active armour against missiles. The more AMS present, the more missiles get shot down.

IS-LRM's (large Vollies, yellow engine flame) they have a minimum range of 180m, get inside of that, and they will do no damage.

cLRM's (stream fire, more susceptible to AMS, blue engine flame) they have no minimum range, how every they do scaling damage from 0-120m roughly, below 120m they basically tickle.


Now with all that being said, depending on how fast you pick up anti-LRM skills (not to be confused with mech skill trees), you will reduce them to nearly a non-issue in short order.

[Jables McBarty]

Metus regem, on 17 May 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

cLRM's (stream fire, more susceptible to AMS, blue engine flame) they have no minimum range, how every they do scaling damage from 0-120m roughly, below 120m they basically tickle.

I think you mean "however they do scaling damage from 180m-120m roughly, below 120m they basically tickle."

[Moldur]

Good lrms can turn matches, but it is a little situational in terms of team composition and maps to make them work. Your team has to be such that your lrms can be utilized, and the enemy has to be such that they are susceptible.

With that in mind, having 2 or 3 lrm boats can really help shut out a team by not allowing mechs, mainly assaults to move out of cover, padding damage in general, and perhaps stripping or outright killing an unlucky fatty or heavy early on.

[WildVector]

Hate having to correct most of you, BUT..

Fact is that CURRENTLY missiles can change directions AND targets mid flight.

You may try it, I recommend using private match over testing grounds and you'll see that those missiles will home in the newest target as long it's withing range.


PS-edited for correction, command console is for another game

Edited by WildVector, 18 May 2016 - 06:03 PM.

[MadCat02]

because nobody wants to spare 1.5 Tons for AMS+1 ton AMMo .

ECM overnerfed ..

[Tesunie]

WildVector, on 18 May 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

Hate having to correct most of you, BUT..

Fact is that CURRENTLY missiles can change directions AND targets mid flight.

You may try it, I recommend using a command console and you'll see that those missiles will home in the newest target as long it's withing range.

Old school, yes. It use to do that.

Recently? Not to my knowledge. I have no seen LRMs track a new target (key word is new) while in mid flight. If you lose lock and reacquire it on the same target than it will track again.

I'll give it a try again and see what happens. But I don't believe it will change while in mid flight like how it once did.

My question would be: What does the command console have to do with it? CC does nothing for LRMs. It does make enemy data (paperdoll/damage display) appear faster though...

If you are seeing LRMs change mid flight targets only with the CC, than it might be a bug with just that gear.

I see I have some testing to do soon... Testing grounds, here I come?

MadCat02, on 18 May 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

because nobody wants to spare 1.5 Tons for AMS+1 ton AMMo .

ECM overnerfed ..

ECM Undernerfed.

Of course, my opinion. And only in the fact that it provides a "cloak" ability to locks, as well as makes it take longer for missiles to acquire a lock even when you can get a target lock on them. Double penalty, and far more than it should be doing.

But, of course, this is a subject that could be debated each way, with everyone tossing opinions around and stuff. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or anything, just that I (as an LRM user) am of a different opinion than you, and I do have my reasons as to why. (And no, it isn't because "I want my LRMs to be super great!" I want my LRMs to be "balanced".)