45 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

Livaria, on 19 April 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

Russ: Oh sure let's fire our quirk guy! Quirk guy, you're fired.
*10 days later*
Russ: We've got ourselves a new quirk guy! We've updated our quirks accordingly.
Adamski: These new quirks are great!
*Henry enters the room*
Henry: I think we are at the point where we should petition Russ to fire whomever is in charge of Quirks, as it is pretty obvious at this point they have no idea WTF they are doing.
Russ: Oh sure let's fire our quirk guy! Quirk guy, you're fired.

Well, we are more than a year into quirking mechs, and we still have large number of Chassis that are nonviable like the Victor & Vindicator, let alone individual variants that are useless.

[_____]

I hope I'm reading the OP correctly but for the two Vindies I care about in today's patch, the 1R and 1X, there were only buffs. I didn't see any loss of energy heatgen quirks and they added heat dissipation quirks on top of that. I agree especially on the 1X it's not enough, but I don't see any nerfs anywhere. Am I missing something?

I *think* PGI wants this to be a brawler, but it lacks the structure quirks to do so properly. I'm running AC10/ASRM4/2xML right now for experimentation.

[xengk]

I though Vind are escort/support mechs or skirmisher, instead of frontline brawler.
Been running mine mostly as escort to Assault, especially the SIB with its police escort camo. (2x LL, 2x SSRM2, TAG, AMS, BAP)

[oldradagast]

Ultimax, on 19 April 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Yeah this part is just misguided obstinance.

We won't add hardpoints, unless of course its the first time releasing a mech - then we will inflate them.

Instead we will add quirks, or we won't, or we will but then we will take them away or change them completely.

Oh, we might give it a 50% CD quirk because it only has 2 hardpoints - but wait, actually that's problematic, we don't want to give 50% CD quirks.

Enough is enough already just balance the hardpoints, balance the base equipment, balance the omni-mech designs so locked equipment isn't fine for a few of them and a clear detrimental balance issue to the majority of them.

So stubborn on something they have repeatedly gotten wrong and have proven unable to manage or maintain.

Agreed with all of this. I have no idea why a company would simply refuse to address errors it's made, especially when fixing them would make happier customers.

Instead, we get mechs with random hardpoints, some of which are obviously terrible, that kill the mech forever, along with quirks that change all the time for no reason, including nerfing weak mechs, buffing strong ones, and who knows what else.

[Livaria]

Adamski, on 19 April 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Well, we are more than a year into quirking mechs, and we still have large number of Chassis that are nonviable like the Victor & Vindicator, let alone individual variants that are useless.

Quirks are not easy to balance. There are probably more than a hundred variants by now. All these variants have distinct differences that can be altered in many combinations. The possibilities for quirks are astronomical to the point that It's easy for an oversight to happen.

I think I can afford to give PGI a break. All I'm here to do is point out some flaws and move on as best as I can.

Edited by Livaria, 20 April 2016 - 06:28 PM.

[DAYLEET]

The AA1 was pretty good before the quirks and the quirks didnt change so theres that going on for it.

So yeah you are a VND and anyone shooting at whatever will hit your CT, but that doesnt mean you need firepower buff. The VND should have had the the old BJ ct buff.

I piloted the VND some weeks ago when i got back into the game for 2 days. Just curious: you guys just look at numbers and only drive the best or actually pilot the VND and come to real conclusions?

Im actually happy to see the SIB get some accell and turn rate buff, he always felt clunky.

Edited by DAYLEET, 20 April 2016 - 06:58 PM.

[cazidin]

Adamski, on 19 April 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Well, we are more than a year into quirking mechs, and we still have large number of Chassis that are nonviable like the Victor & Vindicator, let alone individual variants that are useless.

Just wait for the QUIRKENING III:DARTBOARD LOST after the rescale. /Maniacal laughter followed up by lightening in the background.

[Foxwalker]

I agree the 235 engine cap is bad for 45 toners all around. Previously the Hunchbacks had a cap of 260 which was raised to 275. The smaller engine ones (that goes for Blackjacks too) should all be increased to at least 250 max.

While I may agree with that hard points should be increased, I don't think that is going to happen. Anyway, all the hard points in the world are not going to help if you can't move out of your own way.

Everyone talks about how much love the BJs got. What they really mean is the BJ-1X. I don't see anyone complaining about the other BJs being uber.

Adamski, on 19 April 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Well, we are more than a year into quirking mechs, and we still have large number of Chassis that are nonviable like the Victor & Vindicator, let alone individual variants that are useless.

What's a Victor?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BlackhawkSC, on 19 April 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

I hope I'm reading the OP correctly but for the two Vindies I care about in today's patch, the 1R and 1X, there were only buffs.

They were tiny buffs, ones that were not near good enough to make the Vindi relevant.

[JC Daxion]

It's not hard point inflation we need... It's Sized hard points.. this would solve a ton of things. It would also add a ton more flavor, if every mech with an energy slot couldn't just boat up a couple of LPL's because they are the flavor of the month.

[FupDup]

JC Daxion, on 20 April 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

It's not hard point inflation we need... It's Sized hard points.. this would solve a ton of things. It would also add a ton more flavor, if every mech with an energy slot couldn't just boat up a couple of LPL's because they are the flavor of the month.

The Vindicator's stock weapons aren't that big, so it really doesn't gain much from sized HP's.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 20 April 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

The Vindicator's stock weapons aren't that big, so it really doesn't gain much from sized HP's.

You mean... the Vindicator's weapon options change from Garbage to "lol wut".

Vindicator-1X, why do you need moar nerfs?

[_____]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 April 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

They were tiny buffs, ones that were not near good enough to make the Vindi relevant.

Not relevant in comp/group. Do they need better quirks? Absolutely. But 1R does alright with the 2xLPL 3xML build in the solo queue. I know those aren't exactly high standards but the majority of players play in that queue. The small buffs should make this better. 1X though - I guess you could say you don't have any other "brawler" at the 45 ton weight for IS. If it was only +10 structure quirk better across the torsos and +5 on the arms.

From my alt acct where I own the VNDs (pre-patch)

Edited by BlackhawkSC, 22 April 2016 - 01:46 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Foxwalker, on 20 April 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

Everyone talks about how much love the BJs got. What they really mean is the BJ-1X. I don't see anyone complaining about the other BJs being uber.

lol, i dont even really like the 1X anymore since it lost the laser duration quirk. Its all about the BJ-3, especially now since the PPC buffs.

[jss78]

BlackhawkSC, on 19 April 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

I hope I'm reading the OP correctly but for the two Vindies I care about in today's patch, the 1R and 1X, there were only buffs. I didn't see any loss of energy heatgen quirks and they added heat dissipation quirks on top of that. I agree especially on the 1X it's not enough, but I don't see any nerfs anywhere. Am I missing something?

I *think* PGI wants this to be a brawler, but it lacks the structure quirks to do so properly. I'm running AC10/ASRM4/2xML right now for experimentation.

I think they're mostly going on about the slight nerf the SIB got in one of its quirks.

The VND-1R got a very good agility buff in this pass, making it much nicer than before (though still mediocre).

BTW I agree your approach with the 1X is good. Wolverine Lite ir something like that. AC10/ML's/SRM's seems about the best way to find weapon synergies with those limited hard points.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BlackhawkSC, on 22 April 2016 - 01:42 AM, said:

But 1R does alright with the 2xLPL 3xML build in the solo queue. I know those aren't exactly high standards but the majority of players play in that queue.

I can do well in plenty of bad mechs in solo queue, that shouldn't even be relevant considering we are talking about balance and not the PUG queue where anything can work.

BlackhawkSC, on 22 April 2016 - 01:42 AM, said:

The small buffs should make this better. 1X though - I guess you could say you don't have any other "brawler" at the 45 ton weight for IS.

The VND-1X isn't a brawler, the BJ-1X is a better "brawler" (it really is a short range poker though, SRMs and SPLs are the only true brawling weapons) than the VND-1X.

[Adamski]

Livaria, on 20 April 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

Quirks are not easy to balance. There are probably more than a hundred variants by now. All these variants have distinct differences that can be altered in many combinations. The possibilities for quirks are astronomical to the point that It's easy for an oversight to happen.

I think I can afford to give PGI a break. All I'm here to do is point out some flaws and move on as best as I can.

I guess whoever does balance at PGI comes in less often then the cleaning crew. There are 365 days in a year, there are ~300 total mechs and variants across the Clans & IS.

It shouldn't take more than an hour to take each chassis, look at its hard points & engine cap & weight, and give it quirks to fulfill a role.

Then, if it performs too well, lower the quirks, if it doesn't perform well enough, increase the quirks.

The reason PGI hasn't made progress on balance, is because their changes are completely random, with no reasoning behind them, other than pet peeves of Paul, and the Twitter feed of Russ.

There is no excuse for the Vindicators to receive a balance pass, but come out just as bad as they were before it was done. (or in some cases, worse).

Edited by Adamski, 22 April 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[_____]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 April 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

I can do well in plenty of bad mechs in solo queue, that shouldn't even be relevant considering we are talking about balance and not the PUG queue where anything can work.

It's relevant because you can more easily do well in the VND-1R than even an worse mech, like the 1X, in the solo queue. Again, I'm not saying the 1R shouldn't be further balanced vs the BJs, but my whole point was that the 1R was definitely workable before and the new quirk pass only made it better.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 April 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

The VND-1X isn't a brawler, the BJ-1X is a better "brawler" (it really is a short range poker though, SRMs and SPLs are the only true brawling weapons) than the VND-1X.

Um yes? But my comment was "I think PGI wants it to be a brawler", not "how good it is at brawling vs other mechs +/- 5 tons around it". Unfortunately that's how they screw up balance, but again, if you look at the quirks it feels that's what they want.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BlackhawkSC, on 22 April 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

It's relevant because you can more easily do well in the VND-1R than even an worse mech, like the 1X, in the solo queue. Again, I'm not saying the 1R shouldn't be further balanced vs the BJs, but my whole point was that the 1R was definitely workable before and the new quirk pass only made it better.

The 1R has never been as bad off as the 1X, but they are still meh at best.

BlackhawkSC, on 22 April 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Um yes? But my comment was "I think PGI wants it to be a brawler", not "how good it is at brawling vs other mechs +/- 5 tons around it". Unfortunately that's how they screw up balance, but again, if you look at the quirks it feels that's what they want.

If anything the new quirks are trying to shift it away from that, since they gave it increased PPC velocity and increased ballistic cooldown (which can't be brawling since it can't mount a 20).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 April 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[Soldier91]

I feel dirty killing vindicators and urban mechs. Whenever I see one on my team I try to back them up because they need it more than whatever else is around.