Jump to content

Theorycrafted Atlas (AS-7D)


21 replies to this topic

#1 Xandre Blackheart

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts
  • LocationIn the "cockpit".

Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:45 PM

People talk a lot about the Atlas. It's a big mech. It will be over powering, it will be underwhelming etc. etc.

What I haven't seen much discussion on, is what an Atlas is actually for. Well it's an assault mech, so obviously it's for assault and shooty boom boom right? Not very helpful though. Lots of mechs actually do a better job of either assaulting, or shooty boom boom (or both).

(because I'm bored - guess who is NOT in beta) I want to talk about what roles a large slow heavily armed and armored mech should take in your tactical considerations, and then theory-craft an optimal build to excel in that role.

The Atlas is a big, slow, lumbering target with a lot of mixed range firepower, in devastating amounts. It's a big target, and it won't be chasing anything down. Conversely it will be receiving a lot of attention on the battlefield, from range. Why would anyone want to pilot such an obvious target? (other than it looks like walking death and has a really big shooty canon?)

Two words. Area Denial.

If there is a place where you do not want the enemy to go, there is no better mech to stick right in the middle of that area than an Atlas. Need an objective guarded? This is your mech. It also functions well as the linchpin in a formation, giving light mechs and scouts a place to retreat from heavier hunters. It's slow speed is not a handicap in this role, and is actually a benefit, as lighter mechs can easily catch back up.

So how can the AS7-D more optimally fill it's role of area denial? (otherwise known as the "hell no you go first effect".)

The Atlas has some weak points. It is vulnerable at range, and it is vulnerable to swift moving flankers. Obviously no build can completely remove these factors (and if it could it would be nerfed) but things can be done to mitigate them.

Starting with the base chassis, a nearly full (armor can only be taken in minimum half ton increments and we don't want to waste tonnage) armored AS7-D with 10 heat sinks and a 3/5 movement weighs in at:

10 tons for internal structure - 19 tons for armor (304 out of a theoretical 307 maximum) - 19 tons for a STD 300 engine - 3 tons for a Gyro, 3 tons for a Cockpit, = 54 tons, leaving us 46 tons for consideration.

Assuming (purely for reasons of avoiding more speculation) that the hardpoints available are the same as the original weapons and nothing else, what weapon build would make the AS-7D more effective in an area denial role?

Well certainly hard hitting short ranged weapons are a must for the area denial role, after all if you can't intimidate another mech into not entering your zone of control, the build is less than optimal. But how to do it so that the current "weaknesses" of limited firepower at range and vulnerability to flanking are mitigated?

Without the ability to rear mount weapons (the ORIGINAL TT AS7-D had 2 rear facing Medium Lasers) the best option to discourage flanking is to reserve the arm mounts for anti-flanking capabilities. (I'm going to assume that the AS7-D does NOT have 2 CT energy Hardpoints, but that is an assumption).

Since the capability exists to only mount one energy weapon in each arm, it needs to be something that can near cripple a light flanker in a short period of time. A single Medium Laser is unlikely to serve that function and a PPC is overkill (as well as having a minimum range), so one obvious choice is the Large Laser. This has the added benefit of adding some more ranged capability to the AS-7D.

46 - 10 tons for 2 Large Lasers = 36 tons open.

Of course 2 Large Lasers isn't going to discourage anyone from closing with you, and frankly there is no better armament for keeping folks out of close range than what the Atlas already mounts- the venerable AC/20. With the minimum 2 tons of ammo you want for a credible threat:

36 - 16 tons for AC/20 + 10 shots of ammo = 20 tons (room to shove a locust in there...)

Heat is becoming a concern, so we definitely want to avoid anymore high heat weapons, while saving room for heatsinks. But we still need something to make harassing our mech from long range (at least long range outside the large lasers 450m retaliation capability) expensive.

Fortunately the AS7-D comes with a couple of missile hardpoints in it's left torso. LRMs are a good choice, but these will be useless for area denial due to the minimum range. But some capability for retaliation is mandatory. The question is, how much is optimal? Too large and you've wasted tonnage you could use to mitigate other factors. Too small and the capability for retaliation is negligible.

The original AS7-D mounts an LRM 20 and a SRM 6. The SRM is less useful from an intimidation standpoint, and will also be less useful for ant-flanking since it is torso mounted. So using both Hardpoints for LRMs is a defensible decision. Stacking 2 LRM 10's gives us the capability to at least appear a credible threat from LRM ranges, and allows for alternate firing of the weapons to conserve ammo and heat.

20 - 13 tons for 2 LRM 10 + 3 tons of ammo (1.5 tons each yields 18 shots each since ammo is assumedly able to be shared in game between like weapons ) = 7.

The remaining 7 tons is best used as heatsinks, giving us 17 total heatsinks, 3 less than the standard AS-7D. Heat management will be an issue but the extra capabilities should make up for the shortcoming. Of course, there's always the option to use advanced technology, but that incurs extra expense.

The question remains, is it more optimal at area denial than the original design? Without testing it's only theory, but we can review our assumptions.

With 3 distinct range bands any incoming single attacker other than another assault will likely be discouraged about the time they notice they are getting hit with Large Lasers (450m) and still haven't closed to within AC/20 range. Light flankers especially will be prone to retreat and find a less exposed avenue of attack.

Surprise attacks from the flank and rear will still be an issue, but being able to bring a Large Laser to bear instead of a single medium will be a benefit, especially when aiming at the legs. At that point a flanker has to consider wether they will be able to do enough damage before the risk of becoming crippled and unable to retreat becomes a factor. Or worse, being crippled and unable to avoid the arc of fire for the AC/20.

The substitution of 2 LRM 10's for 1 LRM 20 is probably the least palatable design decision. At LRM range the mech hasn't gained any significant retaliatory capability. But it hasn't lost any either. And it does have 6 more salvos than the original model, with the benefit of being able to alternate fire and keep up a more constant barrage with less heat.

When considering the original AS7-D the modification fills in the medium range gap in it's range bands without sacrificing very much in the way of short range firepower. The primary sacrifice is in the area of heat management. Advanced tech is one way to mitigate this, but it may not be necessary, depending on how the modification performs in the initial testing phase.

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 14 July 2012 - 05:56 PM.


#2 Kobold

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • 2,930 posts
  • LocationChicago, IL

Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:53 PM

The misplaced hyphen throughout this post is killing me.

AS7-D.

#3 Xandre Blackheart

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts
  • LocationIn the "cockpit".

Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostKobold, on 14 July 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

The misplaced hyphen throughout this post is killing me.

AS7-D.


Son of a...

Well hell. Can't fix the title now.

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 14 July 2012 - 05:58 PM.


#4 Kobold

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • 2,930 posts
  • LocationChicago, IL

Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:56 PM

There are a number of mechs that work this way for their designation, including the Centurion and the Jenner (CN9 and JR7, respectively). I'm sure there are others. You're right at in GENERAL, it is ***-#X.

Don't even get me started on the Grand Titan...

#5 Gherrek

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 44 posts

Posted 14 July 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostKobold, on 14 July 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Don't even get me started on the Grand Titan...


Posted Image


Rawr!


Seriously, whats not to like about Optimus Prim...the Grand Titan? A good if somewhat eclectic mix of weapons (and heat issues) Sure its a medium to short range brawler but still....

#6 Sept Wolfke

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 263 posts

Posted 14 July 2012 - 06:52 PM

I'd like to have my Founder's Atlas "Fulcrum" weigh in as the design has been labelled an all-rounder but I think it's a strong area denial Battlemech.

AS7X "Fulcrum":

vs. battlemechs at long range, Fulcrum has a Gauss Rifle and ER Large Laser. These two direct fire weapons are usable at close range as well as long range and begin any engagement by putting holes in an enemy battlemech's armor.

vs. battlemechs at the notorious 270 meters and under range, Fulcrum adds 2 SRM6's with Artemis IV Fire Control System to devastate any battlemech that has weathered the Gauss Rifle and ER Large Laser's heavy damage strikes by sprinkling semi-guided SRMs across the surface of the targetted enemy battlemech, capitalizing on the holes that've been punched in the armor with the crit-seeking SRMs which are very likely to do internal damage with each salvo fired.

Added to the SRM6's are medium pulse lasers in the dexterous arms which provide burst laser damage which is ideal for taking down quick moving Light Battlemechs - this gives Fulcrum it's defense against Jenners and everything in that class of 'quick moving, light harrasser' battlemech.

To add to Fulcrum's already near maximum armor levels, a Guardian ECM Suite has been added so that Light Battlemechs attempting to use TAG or place a NARC beacon are opposed electronically. In addition, the addition of double Anti-Missile Systems provides the capability to engage and destroy incoming LRMs and SRMs from multiple launch sources, or when multiple LRM or SRM volleys are launched from a single enemy battlemech.

Double Heat Sinks are utilized and a total of 12 are mounted in Fulcrum to provide the neccessary heat dissipation to achieve an end result of heat levels being 'light' even when engaging every weapon system simultaneously.

If I see you, at range, Fulcrum will hit you for 15 damage to one locaiton and 8 damage from a laser strike at long range. At short range Fulcrum will hit you for 15 damage to one location, laser strike you for 8, 6, and 6, and launch a volley of SRMs dealing between 4 and 24 damage scattered across your battlemech's chasis, all the while enjoying the fact that Fulcrum's heat gauge moves only modestly to this level of target engagement.

I would offer this as an example of an area denial battlemech that if you don't close with, will simply sit back and put big holes in your battlemech all day long.

#7 Xandre Blackheart

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts
  • LocationIn the "cockpit".

Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostSept Wolfke, on 14 July 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

I would offer this as an example of an area denial battlemech that if you don't close with, will simply sit back and put big holes in your battlemech all day long.


Well it sounds reasonable, but I would offer that the gauss rifle just doesn't have quite the same intimidation factor at short range. That is kind of made up for by the twin SRM6 however.

I didn't include double heatsinks in my build because I'm not 100% certain they will be available at launch. If they are, placement is still an issue due to criticals, but it is probably doable. Of course.. I'm thinking the build would probably not need 34 heat sinks... probably 26 would be more than enough, but that leaves 4 tons of unused weight. Boosting the LRM 10's to LRM 15's would be the likely result of double heatsinks.

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 14 July 2012 - 07:02 PM.


#8 Sept Wolfke

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 263 posts

Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:06 PM

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 14 July 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

If there is a place where you do not want the enemy to go, there is no better mech to stick right in the middle of that area than an Atlas. Need an objective guarded? This is your mech. It also functions well as the linchpin in a formation, giving light mechs and scouts a place to retreat from heavier hunters. It's slow speed is not a handicap in this role, and is actually a benefit, as lighter mechs can easily catch back up.

You just made my day, because you are so right.

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 14 July 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Starting with the base chassis, a nearly full (armor can only be taken in minimum half ton increments and we don't want to waste tonnage) armored AS7-D with 10 heat sinks and a 3/5 movement weighs in at:

10 tons for internal structure - 19 tons for armor (304 out of a theoretical 307 maximum) - 19 tons for a STD 300 engine - 3 tons for a Gyro, 3 tons for a Cockpit, = 54 tons, leaving us 46 tons for consideration.

THIS is why to buy an Atlas. want some weight to play with for customization? The Atlas is King.

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 14 July 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

46 - 10 tons for 2 Large Lasers = 36 tons open.

I tried to mount arm Large Pulse Lasers as I wanted to work with dual Large Lasers on Fulcrum, but I just couldn't make it work, in the end. I like your selection, however.

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 14 July 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

36 - 16 tons for AC/20 + 10 shots of ammo = 20 tons (room to shove a locust in there...)

you're right, and that kinda blows my mind!

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 14 July 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

The remaining 7 tons is best used as heatsinks, giving us 17 total heatsinks, 3 less than the standard AS-7D. Heat management will be an issue but the extra capabilities should make up for the shortcoming. Of course, there's always the option to use advanced technology, but that incurs extra expense.

I can't wait to see what you do with the advanced tech to improve upon this design.


****

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 14 July 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Well it sounds reasonable, but I would offer that the gauss rifle just doesn't have quite the same intimidation factor at short range. That is kind of made up for by the twin SRM6 however.

The Gauss Rifle is understated, but 15 damage REALLY hurts, especially if you have to advance under it's fire and close with the Battlemech toting it. The AC20 is lethal at close range, but advancing to engage a Battlemech with an AC20 is pretty gentle, because the AC20 is silent at long range. There's always the option to stand off against the AC20 and not close. with a Gauss Rifle, you're just hosed. If I can see you, I can blow 1 ton chunks out of your armor.

Edited by Sept Wolfke, 14 July 2012 - 07:13 PM.


#9 Peiper

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Dragoon
  • The Dragoon
  • 1,444 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • LocationA fog where no one notices the contrast of white on white

Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:17 PM

Very well written treatise on the Atlas, Mechwarrior Xandre.

#10 Squigles

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 426 posts

Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:29 PM

The only problem I have with this build, is that for your intended purpose of close range area denial, you're almost working counter to your stated goal. You've packed so much more long range firepower in at the expense of short range firepower. You've reduced your theoretical maximum short range punch (using TT values as a reference point) from 52 points to 36. That's about a 30% reduction in firepower for a build designed to frighten things away from close range combat, while at the same time stripping out 15% of your heatsinks. You have very nearly as much firepower at long range as you do short, so it almost encourages other units to come in close to be able to bring their full arsenal to bear on you.

I understand that you scrapped the SRM due to the difficulty in targetting lights with a torso mount, and the same for replacing the ML's with LL's for fast crippling fire on, again, light mechs. However, the sacrifices you've made in pursuit of protecting yourself from fast flankers (which your team mates who are using you as a safe harbor should be doing for you), has reduced what could be an assault worthy close range arsenal to being essentially on par with a stock huncback in terms of maximal damage output (36 vs 33).

#11 Karlord

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 30 posts
  • LocationMontreal

Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:57 PM

Cauldron Born, I so await your coming.

#12 Rychard Starheart

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 300 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:16 PM

Standard 300 engine
Standard max armor
Endo Steel IS

GR + 3 t ammo
Large Pulse Laser x3
LRM 5 w/ Arti IV + 1t ammo
Case x2
Guard ECM

15 DBL HS

This is my kind of area denial loadout

When they come in to close range to brawl, the pulse lasers chew up mechs like piranha. They do more damage faster and in tighter clusters where the standard lasers spread their damage across more area over a longer period of time.

The Gauss rifle backed up by constant lrm fire withers slower, larger targets before they get close. (the arti iv could be droped for more GR ammo for longer games)

The ECM keeps narcs, tags and other enemy equipment from locking on.

the 15 dbl hs keep the heat level for firing the three large pluse lasers constantly.

Edited by Rychard Starheart, 14 July 2012 - 08:53 PM.


#13 Squigles

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 426 posts

Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:30 PM

View PostRychard Starheart, on 14 July 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Standard 300 engine
Standard max armor
Endo Steel IS

GR + 3 t ammo
Large Pulse Laser x3
LRM 5 w/ Arti IV + 1t ammo
Case x2
Guard ECM
Beagle Probe
15 DBL HS

This is my kind of area denial loadout

When they come in to close range to brawl, the pulse lasers chew up mechs like piranha. They do more damage faster and in tighter clusters where the standard lasers spread their damage across more area over a longer period of time.

The Gauss rifle backed up by constant lrm fire withers slower, larger targets before they get close. (the arti iv could be droped for more GR ammo for longer games)

The ECM and Probe keep sneak attacks, narcs, tags and other enemy equipment from locking on.

the 15 dbl hs keep the heat level for firing the three large pluse lasers constantly.


Overweight by 1 ton and needs to assign 1 more crit then it has. You'd need to drop a DHS, or the case systems, or something of that nature.

#14 Rychard Starheart

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 300 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:42 PM

View PostSquigles, on 14 July 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:


Overweight by 1 ton and needs to assign 1 more crit then it has. You'd need to drop a DHS, or the case systems, or something of that nature.


bah, thought I had the probe in there. your right. forget the probe.

Edited by Rychard Starheart, 14 July 2012 - 08:53 PM.


#15 Xandre Blackheart

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts
  • LocationIn the "cockpit".

Posted 14 July 2012 - 09:44 PM

View PostSquigles, on 14 July 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

The only problem I have with this build, is that for your intended purpose of close range area denial, you're almost working counter to your stated goal. You've packed so much more long range firepower in at the expense of short range firepower. You've reduced your theoretical maximum short range punch (using TT values as a reference point) from 52 points to 36. That's about a 30% reduction in firepower for a build designed to frighten things away from close range combat, while at the same time stripping out 15% of your heatsinks. You have very nearly as much firepower at long range as you do short, so it almost encourages other units to come in close to be able to bring their full arsenal to bear on you.

I understand that you scrapped the SRM due to the difficulty in targetting lights with a torso mount, and the same for replacing the ML's with LL's for fast crippling fire on, again, light mechs. However, the sacrifices you've made in pursuit of protecting yourself from fast flankers (which your team mates who are using you as a safe harbor should be doing for you), has reduced what could be an assault worthy close range arsenal to being essentially on par with a stock huncback in terms of maximal damage output (36 vs 33).


A legitimate criticism. All I can say is that a short range salvo is 20+16= 36 points of damage for the mod vs the original which puts out 20 +12 + 10=42 - a loss of 8 points of damage (since the two other medium lasers are REAR mounted) is a piloting choice when you are looking at boosting the capabilities of the mech to increase the area it can engage. It is of course a trade off. - Assuming that there are two more hardpoints available in the center torso, one could easily add in 2 medium lasers, and go to double heatsinks, again assuming that they are available. That would mitigate your concerns as it would become a 46 point alpha strike. But I'm of the opinion that alpha strikes are less important in this version vs the ability to sustain fire.

But hey I'm just happy to get people thinking about concepts like area denial.

What was that quote I saw in someone's sig?

Knowing is half the battle - the other half involves guns?

View PostPeiper, on 14 July 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

Very well written treatise on the Atlas, Mechwarrior Xandre.


If only I could get the Nomenclature right...

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 16 July 2012 - 07:23 PM.


#16 Xandre Blackheart

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts
  • LocationIn the "cockpit".

Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:24 PM

Posted Image

#17 Alkazar

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:05 PM

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 16 July 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Posted Image



This thread was started 2 days ago. Not much of a necro.

More like a slight bump. A comfortable bump.

Edited by Alkazar, 16 July 2012 - 08:06 PM.


#18 Graphite

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 355 posts

Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:24 PM

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 14 July 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

The question remains, is it more optimal at area denial than the original design? Without testing it's only theory, but we can review our assumptions.


With DHS I'd take it before the AS7-D, but with 17 single HS, it's way too hot: the LRM10 and LL are only going to be operating at around 50% capacity, bringing sustained damage output down to rather dismal levels (relatively).


View PostXandre Blackheart, on 14 July 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Without the ability to rear mount weapons (the ORIGINAL TT AS7-D had 2 rear facing Medium Lasers) the best option to discourage flanking is to reserve the arm mounts for anti-flanking capabilities. (I'm going to assume that the AS7-D does NOT have 2 CT energy Hardpoints, but that is an assumption).


The videos show 4 forward ML: one from each arm and 2 from the torso.

Edited by Graphite, 16 July 2012 - 09:15 PM.


#19 Xandre Blackheart

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts
  • LocationIn the "cockpit".

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:21 PM

View PostAlkazar, on 16 July 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:



This thread was started 2 days ago. Not much of a necro.

More like a slight bump. A comfortable bump.


But I love the picture on the card!

View PostGraphite, on 16 July 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:


With DHS I'd take it before the AS7-D, but with 17 single HS, it's way too hot: the LRM10 and LL are only going to be operating at around 50% capacity, bringing sustained damage output down to rather dismal levels (relatively).




The videos show 4 forward ML: one from each arm and 2 from the torso.


Double heat sinks are a possibility, but I'd prefer to test without them and add them in if they are needed.

2 more energy hardpoints in the center torso? .... Well.... maybe double heatsinks are a good idea after all...

#20 Strikhedonia

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 257 posts
  • LocationAustin

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:23 PM

The Atlas is a large, convenient target...until my ammunition runs out. Then it becomes an obstacle as I run the hell away.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users