175 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 21 April 2016 - 03:15 AM, said:

Well, I do think that 1-man "Units" are a problem.

They are no different than Solo players; after all, they only contain 1 player. So for all intents and purposes, they ARE running Solo, but are getting put in with Units.

Now, if you want to split the voting along with the queues, that can't be happening. On the one hand, they will affect our conceptual "Unit Voted" direction. On the other hand, being in a "Unit" removes them from the Solo queue, thereby depleting its population.

I think 1-man "Units" should still be counted as Solo for FW purposes.

Actually we've got a few really good 1-man units I've seen. Happy to play with them - so far they've been pretty coordination/communication oriented. Quite simply they opted in to deal with the same risks and challenges as any unit has and as such should get all the same opportunities.

If we keep the split I'm strongly of the opinion that MC rewards shouldn't be based on tags but instead total matches you participated in that won. So if you're a solo unit (or just pugging without your unit) but you help flip a world you should get a share of the MC reward.

I play 'solo' in CW almost exclusively. The bulk of my unit doesn't play until after primetime NA CW closes and as such generally can't play except on the weekends. Instead of get on faction TS, find other players wanting to group up and get involved in a drop. When that's not around I pug.

What I don't do however is opt out of having to fight organized opponents just because I'm not in a 12man and still demand all the same as those who do. I focus on plugging into the team I drop with as effectively as possible to still drive a win instead of blaming the other team for being better and more organized than me.

[TexAce]

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

So you think anecdotal experiences called upon by memory is more reliable than the actual telemetry - the facts. So if you two really, seriously think you remember that X street is 'always really busy' but the actual video footage and actually measuring traffic shows that it it had 1 or 2 busy periods over the last week but generally is really quiet, the video footage and measurements of traffic are wrong, because that's not what you two remember?

PGI released telemetry, players collecting and extracting data from over 1K matches, leaderboards, current populations all show your OPINIONS on WHAT YOU REMEMBER are wrong.

There's no 'argument' there. The actual measurements of populations are not an 'opinion'. That's the facts. Your opinion on the facts is irrelevant to their being facts.

Your argumentation is purely wrong solely because you are neglecting what I already told you:

You can't measure what is not there. It means a rat's *** what the telemetry says when the pugs refused to play CW because of the pug-vs-unit problem. They don't show up in the stats because they were not there to begin with. However they said they would come back, IF the concept changes. Which it did.

Edited by TexAce, 22 April 2016 - 02:58 AM.

[Sniper09121986]

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

So, quite simply, your memories and opinions are wrong in the face of the facts. I get you're not happy with that but there's no spin-doctoring there. I get you want to call 'pointing out reality backed up with what actually happened' spin-doctoring but that's a product of you holding an incorrect opinion in the face of the data, nothing else.

Aside from the fact that you have so far failed to present the tiniest bit of the data you are referring to, or exact methodology of gathering said data or any proof of its objectivity...

Yes, I trust my memory. I trust what I have seen and experienced first-hand. I trust it waaaay before I trust anything else, and I trust this holds true for any sentient beings at all. If you are attacking that, you are trying to manipulate me. Today is not 1984, and your attempts at twisting facts and statements are hurting your already dubious cause more than you can guess.

[kesmai]

The problem will start to show in a few weeks. When the interest in FW goes down again.
You can not split the queues ad infinitum to suit everyone without high pop. The split will show it's ugly head soon and it will manifest in even less drops and longer waiting time than before.

[Shard Phoenix]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 21 April 2016 - 03:15 AM, said:

Well, I do think that 1-man "Units" are a problem.

They are no different than Solo players; after all, they only contain 1 player. So for all intents and purposes, they ARE running Solo, but are getting put in with Units.

Now, if you want to split the voting along with the queues, that can't be happening. On the one hand, they will affect our conceptual "Unit Voted" direction. On the other hand, being in a "Unit" removes them from the Solo queue, thereby depleting its population.

I think 1-man "Units" should still be counted as Solo for FW purposes.

I'm sure you may realize that not all units can always field 12 players for a full drop, so there is need of players to fill out drop queues. The "one man" units work well for filling in the gaps (so do individuals from bigger units). Based on that I disagree that 1 man units are a problem.

I also agree with MischiefSC that those of us who've made 1 man units have opted into playing in a more difficult arena. To speak for myself, I've about had it with the QuickPlay queue because there is too much passive game play there. Although it's not perfect, FW does offer me an environment where the teams I'm on actually want to engage the enemy, and not hide behind buildings on the hill on Grim Plexus when the team is up 7-0. Another reason I'm doing it is because I feel that playing against people far better than me gives me a reason to put effort into playing better myself. I figure if I can get to the point where I can consistently put up respectable numbers, even while getting my face kicked in by one of the "big boys", that I've advanced my skills. (not quite there yet...)

Call me crazy, but I'm one of those screwball players who likes to swim in shark infested waters.

[MischiefSC]

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2016 - 03:41 AM, said:

Aside from the fact that you have so far failed to present the tiniest bit of the data you are referring to, or exact methodology of gathering said data or any proof of its objectivity...

Yes, I trust my memory. I trust what I have seen and experienced first-hand. I trust it waaaay before I trust anything else, and I trust this holds true for any sentient beings at all. If you are attacking that, you are trying to manipulate me. Today is not 1984, and your attempts at twisting facts and statements are hurting your already dubious cause more than you can guess.

Okay, so if I go hunt up Russ' posts and tweets on the telemetry and the player done population studies, plus do the math off the existing leaderboard, you're going to make a whole separate thread apologizing for both your use of anecdotal opinion to refute actual statistics and for making baseless insults about my motives because you have a persecution complex?

No, of course you're not. Because if you had any sense of personal accountability we wouldn't be having this discussion. So when I get home from work tonight I'm going to go find and link in those posts and comb through Russ' tweets to show you what the people who've been paying attention to this the whole time already know, and you're going to make excuses for why it's not true because you remember this one time when.

As a side note, Google "reliability of memory". Your memory is not reliable, especially on stuff like this. First and foremost your memory is NOT reliable at all. Second your opinion is colored by confirmation bias. You remember things that confirm your bias and forget what doesn't.

That is why statistics and analytics are there. You're opinion has nothing at all to do with reality.

[Deathlike]

TexAce, on 22 April 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

Your argumentation is purely wrong solely because you are neglecting what I already told you:

You can't measure what is not there. It means a rat's *** what the telemetry says when the pugs refused to play CW because of the pug-vs-unit problem. They don't show up in the stats because they were not there to begin with. However they said they would come back, IF the concept changes. Which it did.

I don't believe that for a second.

The "filter" (aka solo PUG safety net) is there, and yet there aren't enough of you.

The biggest problem I remember from PUGs complaining is mostly the wait. It is the #1 complaint, and that's a symptom of queue starvation aka "not enough people". Being roflstomped might be up there, but I don't hear any of this when they are paired up with a large premade (11-man or less).

It's really as simple as "what is more important", and lack of separation of queues wasn't really the #1 problem with solo PUGs AFAIK.

This in part is indirectly the greatest influence why they aren't queuing up for Invasion mode, but mostly Scouting mode (12 people vs 4 people requirement).

Edited by Deathlike, 22 April 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[Sjorpha]

MischiefSC, on 21 April 2016 - 12:39 AM, said:

The biggest lie I see here is that 'units were stomping pugs in CW'. No. That was never the case. Most teams were unit players who were pugging or playing in small groups. Mostly it was groups beating groups and good groups/big groups beating bad groups/small groups.

Unit players pugging and groups too small to coordinate and take lead properly are still pugs for the purpose of pugstomps. We call them "skittles" and those teams used to be about half of the CW matches we played prior to this latest patch.

It still happens by the way, when unit players answer call to arms and get bunched up in a team. So we are still stomping pugs quite often. The fact that those pugs have tags doesn't make it less of a pugstomp IMO.

The period after the steam launch was the worst, then you would fact team after team after team of pure newbies in trials.

So yes, I'm sorry, but pugstomping was absolutely a huge problem. I know, because I was one of the ones doing the stomping. I could never be so dishonest as to claim it never happened, because it did. Guilty as charged.

It's largely over now, thank mechajesus.

I think the reason the solo queue is empty now is because the steam newbies were scared away long before phase 3. The pugstomps were starting to become more rare even before phase 3, simply because people were giving up on dropping solo, and the steam hype is over so there is no longer a stream of newbies jumping into the shark tank.

If the solo/unit split had happened before steam launch I think it would have worked, because then all those steam puggers would have fought each other and had fun insteaf of being stomped out of the game(mode).

PGI really screwed up the timing, they should have gone to steam with phase 3 launch instead of 4 months before it, nothing is going to bring those players back now because they won't even know the split happened.

Edited by Sjorpha, 22 April 2016 - 01:57 PM.

[MischiefSC]

TexAce, on 22 April 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

Your argumentation is purely wrong solely because you are neglecting what I already told you:

You can't measure what is not there. It means a rat's *** what the telemetry says when the pugs refused to play CW because of the pug-vs-unit problem. They don't show up in the stats because they were not there to begin with. However they said they would come back, IF the concept changes. Which it did.

So if pugs are not there they're not getting stomped, so it didn't happen.

Also the telemetry is from the timeframe of the "Pug stomping".

[MischiefSC]

Sjorpha, on 22 April 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Unit players pugging and groups too small to coordinate and take lead properly are still pugs for the purpose of pugstomps. We call them "skittles" and those teams used to be about half of the CW matches we played prior to this latest patch.

It still happens by the way, when unit players answer call to arms and get bunched up in a team. So we are still stomping pugs quite often. The fact that those pugs have tags doesn't make it less of a pugstomp IMO.

The period after the steam launch was the worst, then you would fact team after team after team of pure newbies in trials.

So yes, I'm sorry, but pugstomping was absolutely a huge problem. I know, because I was one of the ones doing the stomping. I could never be so dishonest as to claim it never happened, because it did. Guilty as charged.

It's largely over now, thank mechajesus.

I think the reason the solo queue is empty now is because the steam newbies were scared away long before phase 3. The pugstomps were starting to become more rare even before phase 3, simply because people were giving up on dropping solo, and the steam hype is over so there is no longer a stream of newbies jumping into the shark tank.

If the solo/unit split had happened before steam launch I think it would have worked, because then all those steam puggers would have fought each other and had fun insteaf of being stomped out of the game(mode).

PGI really screwed up the timing, they should have gone to steam with phase 3 launch instead of 4 months before it, nothing is going to bring those players back now because they won't even know the split happened.

You are absolutely correct- however that 75-80% of the population is and was in units prior to the split. There was never a situation where it was units stomping soloists. It was always coordinated units stomping uncoordinated units and a couple solos.

Hence the situation now.

[Sjorpha]

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

So if pugs are not there they're not getting stomped, so it didn't happen.

Also the telemetry is from the timeframe of the "Pug stomping".

Again, what are you calling pugs here?

Does the telemetry tell you how many large groups compared to small groups and solo players there were on average in each team?

Because that is what determines whether there is pugstomping or not.

I really hope you're not trying to define "pugs" as "solo players with no tags" because that my friend would just be completely ridiculous.

Pugs are all players dropping solo or in groups too small to dominate a teams coordination, and all team compromised of those kind of solos/small groups are skittles teams, and all matches decent unit vs skittles are pugstomps.

Those matches were very very common, and are still reasonably common actually. Defending teams of skittles happen all the time in unit queue, and boy do they get stomped.

Edited by Sjorpha, 22 April 2016 - 02:10 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 22 April 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I don't believe that for a second.

The "filter" (aka solo PUG safety net) is there, and yet there aren't enough of you.

The biggest problem I remember from PUGs complaining is mostly the wait. It is the #1 complaint, and that's a symptom of queue starvation aka "not enough people". Being roflstomped might be up there, but I don't hear any of this when they are paired up with a large premade (11-man or less).

It's really as simple as "what is more important", and lack of separation of queues wasn't really the #1 problem with solo PUGs AFAIK.

This in part is indirectly the greatest influence why they aren't queuing up for Invasion mode, but mostly Scouting mode (12 people vs 4 people requirement).

They guy who did all the telemetry. Who was that? The screenshot matches. The PGI telemetry is in the ommand posts I can go find that.

The guy who was putting up the big telemetry collections and charts, what's his name again? Going to find those posts the "my memory is better than math" guys here.

Besides, that's good data to have. I'll co.pare the old CW population telemetry with what's on the Leaderboard now.

[Deathlike]

Sjorpha, on 22 April 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Again, what are you calling pugs here?

Does the telemetry tell you how many large groups compared to small groups and solo players there were on average in each team?

Because that is what determines whether there is pugstomping or not.

I really hope you're not trying to define "pugs" as "solo players with no tags" because that my friend would just be completely ridiculous.

Pugs are all players dropping solo or in groups too small to dominate a teams coordination, and all team compromised of those kind of solos/small groups are skittles teams, and all matches decent unit vs skittles are pugstomps.

Those matches were very very common, and are still reasonably common actually. Defending teams of skittles happen all the time in unit queue, and boy do they get stomped.

Let's be clear...

It's far easier to form a team of skittles (still happens even now, 4 Clans, 6 Houses) than it is to create a 12-man solo group of the same faction, based on math and just inherent logic.

That's what creates those matchups.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 April 2016 - 02:23 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Sjorpha, on 22 April 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Again, what are you calling pugs here?

Does the telemetry tell you how many large groups compared to small groups and solo players there were on average in each team?

Because that is what determines whether there is pugstomping or not.

I really hope you're not trying to define "pugs" as "solo players with no tags" because that my friend would just be completely ridiculous.

Pugs are all players dropping solo or in groups too small to dominate a teams coordination, and all team compromised of those kind of solos/small groups are skittles teams, and all matches decent unit vs skittles are pugstomps.

Those matches were very very common, and are still reasonably common actually. Defending teams of skittles happen all the time in unit queue, and boy do they get stomped.

Sjorpha, on 22 April 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Again, what are you calling pugs here?

Does the telemetry tell you how many large groups compared to small groups and solo players there were on average in each team?

Because that is what determines whether there is pugstomping or not.

I really hope you're not trying to define "pugs" as "solo players with no tags" because that my friend would just be completely ridiculous.

Pugs are all players dropping solo or in groups too small to dominate a teams coordination, and all team compromised of those kind of solos/small groups are skittles teams, and all matches decent unit vs skittles are pugstomps.

Those matches were very very common, and are still reasonably common actually. Defending teams of skittles happen all the time in unit queue, and boy do they get stomped.

So the argument I was having with the two above is in relation to the queue split- was it actual solo player getting stomped by units or pugging unit members and small groups/skittles getting stomped.

You and I agree, the bulk of stomps were units on pugging unit members. Much like the unit queue is now.

I love the split. I'm hoping it stays. I'm hoping for better tools to make planets worthwhile and enough depth to bring in more units. I'd like separate lanes completely for unit/solo and MC rewards for solos participating in flipping worlds. I'd also like Freelancers to get rewards like mercs.

However the idea that CW was units going out and stomping solos was absolutely false (which is what they're arguing). It was and still is units beating unit members. Difference being premade vs skittles.

[Sniper09121986]

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

So if pugs are not there they're not getting stomped, so it didn't happen.

Now that is rich. It is like saying my grandpa never went to WW2 because he was not killed there, ergo the war has never happened. Man, you could start a new school of philosophic thinking!

[Vxheous]

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

Now that is rich. It is like saying my grandpa never went to WW2 because he was not killed there, ergo the war has never happened. Man, you could start a new school of philosophic thinking!

Your analogy of your grandpa is flawed. Its more like your grandpa didnt fight in ww2, so he didnt die in battle, his whole country didnt fight in ww2, so his whole country never got stomped

[MischiefSC]

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

Now that is rich. It is like saying my grandpa never went to WW2 because he was not killed there, ergo the war has never happened. Man, you could start a new school of philosophic thinking!

Did you even read the thread? You are literally showing WHY things like your anecdotal opinion can't be trusted.

He said "the data doesn't count because the pugs were not there". I said "if the pugs were not there they didn't get stomped".

If soloists were getting stomped by units it would be reflected in the telemetry. It's not, so he said it's because the pugs didn't show up. If they didn't show how did they get stomped? If it only happened rarely then you can't say it was all units stomping pugs can you?

It was units on pugging units with a sprinkle of soloists.

[Triordinant]

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

That is why statistics and analytics are there. You're opinion has nothing at all to do with reality.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

- John Adams, 1770

[MischiefSC]

Triordinant, on 22 April 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

- John Adams, 1770

So are you doing Freelancer?

[Triordinant]

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

So are you doing Freelancer?

Nope. Leveling my new Marauders in QuickPlay.