35 replies to this topic

[Sasuga]

Right now, with all the inner-sphere variants, there really isn't that much 'advantage' to the Clan OnmiMechs. Sure, they're cheaper to change their hard points buying a whole new Innersphere Mechs, but they also tend to have no real beneficial quirks (as is mentioned a lot) or a lot of negative quirks. - Also, we still have to buy three variants for skilling.

The thing is, the OmniMech wasn't just a 'mix and match body parts of standard variants' to make a few adjustments to mechs. - Right now its like we only have five variants, just like the Innersphere Mechs - The OmniMech was (is supposed to be) the "All Mech" with the ability to swap out weapon pods to meet the Mechwarrior's and/or Mission's needs.

Right now, I can't stick two lasers on the right arm of a Hellbringer, and I ask, "Why?"

The answer seems to be, "Because there's no Hellbringer variant with two lasers in the right arm." - Which is a foolish answer. The mech's arm even looks like it can support an additional laser, and that's because it should be able to. I should be able to slap a laser pod in there if I want to!

Why can't I have four lasers across the top of an Ebon Jaguar? - "Because there's not an Ebon Jaguar Variant like that." - SO WHAT!? The OmniMech is adjustable, that's the whole point!

Right now, it seems there's more options and variation in many of the Innersphere Mechs then there are in the clan Mechs.

I'm not asking for the complete freedom of free-form-mech-building that would allow for someone to put eight lasers in the torso of a Maddog. I am asking, that you create 'mirror' OmniPods for each pod that doesn't already have a mirror'd pod, on most OmniMechs (I could, for example, see the Summoner not quite mirroring). If there's a 'dead spot' (Like the Right Arm of the Hellbringer has) allow us to have a pod that fills that spot. If there's a right arm that has ballistic capabilities, allow us a left arm with ballistic capabilities. The Timberwolf can't have a laser in the left and right torso without having Jumpjets in the Right Torso right now, and that's wrong.
=-=-=-=
Why can't the Ebon Jaguar have an energy spot in its lower right torso?
Why can't the Ebon Jaguar have an energy, ballistic, and missile in each arm?
Why can't the Ebon Jagaur have a ballistic in its upper left torso?
- I get that it can't have a head or center mounted weapon, there's no 'hard point' for one (no Omni-Pod-Connection Spot for one).

Why can't the Hellbringer have two energy in its right arm? - There's a dead spot that that an energy could fit in.
Why can't the Hellbringer have a missile pod on its UPPER left torso (and the energy spots in its lower left torso)?
- I can buy into only machine guns going into the lower right torso and energy in its lower left torso, I can buy into that. That's believable, while I would LOVE to be able to stick three energy in each left and right torso.

Why can't the Mad Dog have an energy and ballistic in each arm? (If not two ballistic in each arm!)
Why can't the Mad Dog have three energy in each arm? (It's got three energy option for the right, why not the left!?)

Why can't the Timberwolf put an energy in the lower right torso without jump jets?
Why can't the Timberwolf have two Missile pods, and Energy pod, and Machine gun (with or without jump jets) on its left torso?

=-=-=-=-=
I could go on, but I think I've more then made my point (and certainly hope so). I hope we can get more OmniPods for our current OmniMechs, that can give us some more variations, or at least a bit of symmetry. Any place the art shows there's a 'dead zone' or 'unfilled hard-point' we need to be able to fill it. The art is already showing the Mech has the ability, but the game mechanics are not allowing us to use that spot.... And OmniMechs are the "All Mech". I'm not asking you to add something you're not already showing us. (The Ebon Jaguar's arms are only designed to handle one missile pod, that's fine! Why can't I still stick a laser in that top pod-slot with the AC in the middle and the missiles slung below? - Why can't I stick a second laser in the right arm of the Hellbringer?)

You want to charge us extra C-bills for these spots (or please don't, but possibly MC) ok, so they don't cos the standard amount of C-Bills as the rest of the pods, that's fine. Wanna do it like releasing new Mechs, MC for early adapters and C-Bills later, that's FINE! Just, please give us these 'hard points' (Omni-Pod Spots) that are already showing! (Or in the case of the vulture, give us an extra one for the left arm to match the three lasers of the right arm.)

Maybe the OmniMechs should have their torsos broken down into Upper Torso and Lower Torso, so we can mix-and-match the upper and lower torsos.

Edited by Sasuga, 20 April 2016 - 03:07 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Dunno, it won't help that much, just a few ones, the biggets issue most bad Omnimechs have is the fixed equipment no one neeeds and the lack of correct Endo and or FF unlocks.

Engine size and this equip fixed just kills a lot mechs from compettiveness because other omnis can do it better and can be more versitile. As well as most Battlemechs having that advantage as well.

The lack of this Omnimechadvantage is just there is no refitting time and costs involved in MWO as well as not enough situations to constantly swap loadouts.

[ImperialKnight]

do you want hardpoint inflation? cause this is how you get hardpoint hyperinflation.

[Karl Streiger]

because you want to run Summer Mandaka Hellbringer - you don't need to change the whole system. Just take the two ER-Large Laser in the left arm and the gauss in the right - problem solved

[VinJade]

to be honest until Russ gets over his hate for all things Clan you won't see this.. at least not until the IS Omnis come up and we will see them get so much love that it will just show how spiteful Russ is when it comes to clan stuff(I use a Stalker by the way).

anyways back to the main topic, I would love to see a true Omni machine not how they have it. but a true one, if everything is locked on the machine like JJs, FF, Endo, HS type, ect then give the full ability to use any and all weapons in every slot of the mech(unless already taken up by another locked equipment).

some already whine about not being able to remove JJs because they are hardwired into the machine or changing out fram/armor.

The nice thing about FF & ES is that unless they take up the entire section they can be moved around in that section which still would allow people to place large items in them.

[Sasuga]

Lily from animove, on 20 April 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

Dunno, it won't help that much, just a few ones, the biggets issue most bad Omnimechs have is the fixed equipment no one neeeds and the lack of correct Endo and or FF unlocks.

Engine size and this equip fixed just kills a lot mechs from compettiveness because other omnis can do it better and can be more versitile. As well as most Battlemechs having that advantage as well.

The lack of this Omnimechadvantage is just there is no refitting time and costs involved in MWO as well as not enough situations to constantly swap loadouts.

Jump Jets should be pods, or there should be OmniPod options that match the ones with JJ but without JJs. Anytime there's a fixed item, like a Targeting Computer or something, it should either be an OmniPod that can be added or removed, or an Omni-Module that offers the same weapons without the other fixed items.

Omni Mechs are supposed to be versatile, not rigid. IS Mechs are rigid and harder to customize. Clan mechs are supposed to be customizable right up until they drop. If a clan pilot or command feels an extra ton of ammo or another weapon would trump a targeting computer, the OmniMech is designed for that!

=-=-=-=
I'd really like to see the Clan Omni's get their true Omni-Nature before the IS gets Omni Mechs. The IS didn't get Omni-Mechs until 3052, and really not that many until 3055/3056, and then the number of IS Omni Mechs is the same as Clan Mechs.

LOOK, I can buy IS Mechs or Clan Mechs, the playing field is fair that way. However, I am a clanner. I've been Jade Falcon since the 90s. I play MWO and other Battletech games because I found them 'cool' as a youth and now as an adult I can escape into this universe (the same reason most-everyone plays games).

The community warfare stuff is great, I wish there were more maps and things, but I particularly love the matches where its Clan on IS. I don' t mind the quirks in IS mechs to even out things and make them more 'fair'. IS pilots were on average better pilots during the clan invasion. However, what the clans had against those better IS pilots was the tech. I know clan tech was "Over Powered" when it was released (and that's why quirks got added). Clan weapons punch harder, they hit further (or should) etc. And Clan Mechs (should) have more versatility! I shouldn't have a right arm that I can only stick one laser into on the Hellbringer.

Adding the weapon I'd have to pay for the heat during battle. There is always a cost to adding more weapons, they cost tonnage and heat. Why is a clan mech restricted from adding an OmniPod to a spot that can clearly accept one? - Even if we didn't see it graphically, we know because its an OmniMech.

You want to say I can't strap four on to each arm of a Hellbringer, FINE! I understand there's a game engine limit (art limit really. I mean, to add a third or fourth, or six, or eight, would be more artwork for the artists) but when the artwork already exists more or less, why are we restricted?

I mean, at this point I'd be willing to pay a SMALL MC amount for a right arm on the Hellbringer that has two energy spots. - I feel MWO charges too much for their Mechs and colors right now and wish they'd lower their prices (but that's another topic) but I'd still be willing to pay MC to have a (closer to) TRUE OmniMech!

[Sasuga]

knightsljx, on 20 April 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

do you want hardpoint inflation? cause this is how you get hardpoint hyperinflation.

First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by "Hardpoint Hyperinflation". I'm guessing you mean that mechs will have more and more hardpoints? I'm not asking that more hardpoints get added to IS Mechs (the ones with the best perks!).

As for having more hardpoints on a OnmiMech, I'm ok with that! You want to put 16 Medium Lasers on your mech and die from overheating during a match, that's fine by me!

I could see a Timberwolf with 13 lasers on it, and why not? You're worried about an alpha strike? The heat (especially with ghost heat now) would be crazy. I can already add two Ultra AC/20s to the Timberwolf if I want to for a strike damage of 80 from those two weapons alone. Add 4 small lasers and you've got an alpha strike of 100. The Mech can already do the damage if one wants to pack the weapons on, the issue is that we don't have the flexability. I have to always poke out on the left side to fire two lasers at an enemy, and what if I lose my left side? I should be able to poke out and fire two lasers from my right side, whether my left side is destroyed or not.

With an Omni Mech I should be able to put any weapon anywhere I want to really, but I'm not even asking for that. I'm asking that we don't have these 'dead zones' that are there now. I'm asking for one more laser spot in the right arm of the Hellbringer. I'm asking for a right torso that allows 2 missiles, a machine gun, and a laser in the right Torso of the Timberwolf without requiring Jump Jets.

I'm not asking that a ballistic head slot be added to a mech that's never had one (although that would be an OmniMech). I am asking why the Hellbringer can't stick a ballistic in each arm or two lasers in the right arm.

I'm not even asking for a ballistic and energy slot option, or two ballistic options in each arm, as would be a true OmniMech! - Actually, I wasn't, now I am!

I don't know what hardpoint inflation is, but if what I'm asking for sounds like it to you, then sure, maybe I am asking for that.

Remember, HEAT, AMMO, TONNAGE. (plus C-Bill costs). One still has to build a viable mech for battle. I've actually been running short on weapons in many of my builds (that is, not using every slot there is) in order to have more heat sinks and/or armor. I used to run with an AC in the torso of my Hellbringer plus the LRM 15, I've dropped the AC so I could have more armor.

Sometimes less is more! I know that. I just believe I should have the choice of less or more when it wouldn't cause anyone to break a sweat to give it to us, and when it something that is in the spirit of the universe the game takes place in.

[Sasuga]

Karl Streiger, on 20 April 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

because you want to run Summer Mandaka Hellbringer - you don't need to change the whole system. Just take the two ER-Large Laser in the left arm and the gauss in the right - problem solved

How does a Guass Rifle (especially in this game) compare to two small lasers for taking out light Mechs who are trying to attack me up close? If I were going to put a Gauss Rifle on the Hellbinger, I'd stick it in its torso so I can snipe with it over hills better. I hate firing weapons into mountains because my arms are slung low.

I see weapons on the arms as defensive weapons, against close range and fast moving targets, because the arms have a larger range of motion. I put sniping weapons in the torso.

[Vanguard319]

If we had refit and rearm, Omnimechs would (in theory) be able to be repaired in a fraction of the time of a standard battlemech of the same weight class. Aside from the reconfigurable hardpoints, the benefits of omnimechs are mostly in terms of logistics. Note I say in theory because PGI's bias towards balancing the game in favor of IS players is so blatantly obvious that even if we had R&R, Clan would likely get no benefit at best, and penalties at worst.

[Karl Streiger]

Well this would be the best part about Omni Mechs - (swapable loadouts on the load screen)
Or for FP - lock for the Mechs in the dropdeck but because of Omni they could swap modules when they know the map.

This alone would have had great impact - even without creating your own ultimate OmniMech with swapping pods.

For the placement of the HPs. well this is one of the balancing by accident tools. I rather would like to have the ballistic for the Ebon Jaguar A right in the lower torso - and of course i would like to have the rotary look for the UAC20 - or at least that both barrels of the UAC20 are not plain horizontal but diagonal - anyhow its just cosmetics

Sasuga, on 20 April 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

I see weapons on the arms as defensive weapons, against close range and fast moving targets, because the arms have a larger range of motion. I put sniping weapons in the torso.

Of course - its valid torso weapon have better convergence = better for sniping. But the other issue is the missing level movement for arms. For most Mechs mounting weapons in the arms is a bad decision, it could save your day when you have good movement (Highlander, Awesome, Atlas) with some decent weapons in those arms. But for other Mechs - like Hellbringer (good example) you get the disadvantage of no LAA without its advantage (Jaeger; Rifle, BlackJack) - this doesn't make sense. (its not a Clan only issue)

When you would reduce the torso twist range and increase the arm movement - it may have some advantage to move your big guns in the arms.

Vanguard319, on 20 April 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

If we had refit and rearm, Omnimechs would (in theory) be able to be repaired in a fraction of the time of a standard battlemech of the same weight class. Aside from the reconfigurable hardpoints, the benefits of omnimechs are mostly in terms of logistics. Note I say in theory because PGI's bias towards balancing the game in favor of IS players is so blatantly obvious that even if we had R&R, Clan would likely get no benefit at best, and penalties at worst.

Well if you are right - i look forward to see the first IS OmniMechs:
Strider - 40t
fixed heatsink SHS
fixed CASE
fixed 240 engine
12t payload
at least it got Endosteel

Owens - single Heatsinks as well but at least decent speed - but with fixed C3, TAG and BAP...so not going to make it.
Main issues with IS Omni would be the XL engine - wich by far is the biggest advantage of clans.... but this is another topic (when you don't remember former balancing you are condemned to fail - even epic if you don't copy the good stuff)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 20 April 2016 - 11:02 PM.

[Rattazustra]

knightsljx, on 20 April 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

do you want hardpoint inflation? cause this is how you get hardpoint hyperinflation.

We already HAVE hardpoint inflation.

A clan mech that has 1 laser in the arm usually gets 1 energy hardpoint in the arm.
An IS mech that has 1 laser in the arm usually gets 1-3.
Same with almost any other weapon.

Look at some of the newer mechs. The Archer and Cyclops stick out the most. The 9 missile slot Archer does not have 9 launchers in its stock model. The 6 LRM Cyclops also doesn't need those 6 hardpoints to match its stock model.

The hardpoint inflation is already upon us and like most things PGI does it one-sidedly favours Inner Sphere mechs dramatically.

Oh and about the original topic: The Hellbringer and the Timberwolf use the exact same arms. They are physically identical. Thus any arm that is available for the Timberwolf should be available for the Hellbringer as well.

[Vanguard319]

Karl Streiger, on 20 April 2016 - 11:01 PM, said:

Well if you are right - i look forward to see the first IS OmniMechs:
Strider - 40t
fixed heatsink SHS
fixed CASE
fixed 240 engine
12t payload
at least it got Endosteel

Owens - single Heatsinks as well but at least decent speed - but with fixed C3, TAG and BAP...so not going to make it.
Main issues with IS Omni would be the XL engine - wich by far is the biggest advantage of clans.... but this is another topic (when you don't remember former balancing you are condemned to fail - even epic if you don't copy the good stuff)

You know, they could if they wanted to introduce at least one IS omnimech. Since we're in the year 3053 right now, they could introduce the Raptor (introduced in 3052) to the game, and use it as a testbed for how future is omnis will play.

[VinJade]

@Rat
Your are correct, Russ hates clans and you can see it, hell he even admitted he didn't like the clans and that it was 'forced' on him by those that own the rights to Battletech, the very game that pgi is using to draw in players.

so because of this 'heavy handed' tactic by the owners they are screwing the clans over every chance they can get and uses the ruse of balance to do so.

Just looking at the clan omnis, very few have any positive quirks and those like the Timber Wolf are given the shaft which is sad seeing at the Timber wolf is the most iconic and well known of all mechs of BT next to the Atlas.

now when they come out with the IS Omnis you can bet that they will get all the love and odds are no neg quirks.

as to the topic at hand true omnis we will never have.

[Lances107]

I am too new to understand everything so I will do my best, but before I begin I wish to state the why. I was in a match tonight and this guy was just losing his temper on ts. Couldnt make out why, as I was focused on the battle. When I asked why at the end it was over this very topic. Specifically that Inner sphere mechs are buffed over clan mechs. I thought he was crazy but when I ran the numbers he was right on. The torso's of the Inner sphere mechs have significant higher max armor then clan mech. This is not even talking about the ominpods, for that just read this http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

Mechwarrior four clan tech allowed you to slot any weapon in that slot, so long as it did not exceed the size of the slot. Clan LRMs loaded slower, as did srms, clan lasers had longer range but great heat. Innersphere had shorter range lasers but far less heat, Lrms loaded much faster, as did srms. The clans over all had an edge but not a game breaking edge.

Lets get to Mechwarrior online. Its really sad that you can not equip a timberwolf with the standard two er medium pulse lasers, two er large lasers, two machine guns, and two LRM 20s. Without giving up significant amount of armor somewhere to carry the ammo needed. You realize I could not even equip two gauss rifles on a timberwolf even if I wanted to. The Mad cat Mk2 carried two gauss rifles, two small pulse lasers, and two larm 10s. Now try squeezing that into a clan timber wolf with adaquit ammo.

The omni pods limit what weapons you can use for the slots and how many even if the slots of space that could be used. This is quite the major restriction. This is not even counting the torso issue that the guy was talking about over ts. This also gets back to the Black Knight. The big thing about the Black Knight in the Mechwarrior four universe was its slots could be filled with any weapons so long as they did not exceed the space of the slot. What happens when you take the gloves off? Suddenly you end up with real innovative loadouts.

I chose clan because the first clan I joined in the mechwarrior 2 universe was Jade Falcon. I enjoyed the innersphere in the Mechwarrior four series. I am going to try to say this plainly, if you want your faction war to be a success do not ignore what these posters are talking about. Ignore everything else I said fine, I get that, I am the new guy on the block. Not them the hate on the over buffing of innersphere over clan mechs is real, as I found out tonight.

[VinJade]

@Lance
Russ & those that work with him Hates(1) the clans and using the 'quirks system' is just a ruse, we all know it(2) as it is easy to see just by looking at the Timber Wolf alone.

(1) He was forced to have them in game by those that own Battletech
(2) Russ confirmed his dislike as well for the Clans and with the way we see how he/they handle the clans.

Back to the topic at hand;
The best way to make Omnis true omnis is to lock the armor down to a fair amount & allowing full use of all equipment and able to use all locations of the mech if there is space and tonnage for it.

but again we would never see that.

[Aleski]

The simpliest solution to fix bad omnimechs right now is to remove the fixed equipements and the fixed slots of FF and Endo.

It will really help the Lynx, the Summoner and other omnimechs. I'm an IS guy but i love clan mechs too. When i play my Summoner, i have great matches sometimes. But well... It's not a good mech. If he will have Endo and i have the hability to remove JJ if i want, it should be far better !

The idea of Hardpoints inflation on some Omnipods is a good idea too. Why the IS has HP inflation and not the Omnimechs who need it ?

[Karl Streiger]

Aleski, on 22 April 2016 - 01:40 AM, said:

The idea of Hardpoints inflation on some Omnipods is a good idea too. Why the IS has HP inflation and not the Omnimechs who need it ?

Not all IS Mechs have Hardpoint Inflation - my AS7-D(F) is always jealous on my AS7-S(L) and all i can say.... look he has the better textures, the better quirks and more missile hardpoints - but i love you still... but a look in his single eye always tells me he doesn't believe me

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 April 2016 - 01:47 AM.

[Aleski]

Karl Streiger, on 22 April 2016 - 01:47 AM, said:

Not all IS Mechs have Hardpoint Inflation - my AS7-D(F) is always jealous on my AS7-S(L) and all i can say.... look he has the better textures, the better quirks and more missile hardpoints - but i love you still... but a look in his single eye always tells me he doesn't believe me

You have a dual ballistic to compensate ? =D

Yeah the quad missiles HP are better...

[VinJade]

removing the fixed equipment makes them nothing more than over priced Standard mechs with a cheap modular system.
the fixed items gives the mech flair, a personality, and makes it unique.

remove the fixed items and you might as well call it the Mercury modular system which is what omni tech is based off just more advanced.

Edited by VinJade, 22 April 2016 - 01:54 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Aleski, on 22 April 2016 - 01:49 AM, said:

You have a dual ballistic to compensate ? =D

not when you life by the code - AC 20 or bust

VinJade, on 22 April 2016 - 01:53 AM, said:

removing the fixed equipment makes them nothing more than over priced Standard mechs with a cheap modular system.
the fixed items gives the mech flair, a personality, and makes it unique.

remove the fixed items and you might as well call it the Mercury modular system which is what omni tech is based off just more advanced.

isn't it a question of your PoV?

Of course i wouldn't unlock ES and FF and JJs - but i would simple add this feature - to be fair - i would wish we could simple turn the Summoner into a Dark Age Thor II and the Hellbringer into a Loki II.... a complete re-draw of the invasion if you like.
I know never going to happen (but for example the DireWolf could be a great 64kph 90t Mech, the Kit Fox could have equal weapons with 120kph max)

Reason is simple, without a kind of BV you use a lack luster build you have to carrie twice as hard. Maybe you can't even compete.


When those fixes are not done - a hell lot of Mechs will be DOA when you bring a Clan BattleMech of similar weight - even the TimberWolf could become obsolete with the Black Python

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 April 2016 - 02:15 AM.