48 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

I wonder how all of these geometries will change with the resize. It would be pretty bogus for huge parts to stay huge even those the volumes are supposed to be balanced. My big complaint would tbe the TBR's missile racks making it significantly larger.

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

And if you are putting them into the LA, that's a you issue as the "ballistic" base makes everything just out more in the LA.

Use the RA and VOILA no issue.


or put PPCs into RA instead of the already larger base LA?

The right arm that has the PPC velocity quirks only has 1 energy mount, so a player is faced with either:
- Have speed and convergence at the cost of having a very vulnerable and weak left arm.
- Have speed and safety with two arms at the cost of not being able to lead targets and having one less heat sink.
- Have convergence and better safety at the cost of having slow PPCs.

If this was the benefit vs. cost comparison for say...the Nova, I'd have absolutely no issues, as it's a 50t mech, and being able to lob dual PPCs well is pretty good for a 50 tonner.

For the Summoner, just 2 PPCs is relatively underwhelming for a 70 tonner, especially when trying to compete with Black Knights, Grasshoppers, Timberwolves, and Ebon Jags. Also the BJ-3, which gets 50% velocity on PPCs, -20% PPC heat gen, -10% energy heat gen, better hardpoints, AND structure quirks.

Even if they gave the SMN's left arm double internal structure, it still wouldn't be a viable meta/comp choice due to the hardpoint location, and it would still lose against BKs, GHPs, TBRs, and EBJs.

[Scout Derek]

Okay you know what? I'm going to overlap your pictures. Give me a minute, because I'd like to prove bishop's point.

Edited by Scout Derek, 20 April 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 20 April 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

The right arm that has the PPC velocity quirks only has 1 energy mount, so a player is faced with either:
- Have speed and convergence at the cost of having a very vulnerable and weak left arm.
- Have speed and safety with two arms at the cost of not being able to lead targets and having one less heat sink.
- Have convergence and better safety at the cost of having slow PPCs.

If this was the benefit vs. cost comparison for say...the Nova, I'd have absolutely no issues, as it's a 50t mech, and being able to lob dual PPCs well is pretty good for a 50 tonner.

For the Summoner, just 2 PPCs is relatively underwhelming for a 70 tonner, especially when trying to compete with Black Knights, Grasshoppers, Timberwolves, and Ebon Jags. Also the BJ-3, which gets 50% velocity on PPCs, -20% PPC heat gen, -10% energy heat gen, better hardpoints, AND structure quirks.

Even if they gave the SMN's left arm double internal structure, it still wouldn't be a viable meta/comp choice due to the hardpoint location, and it would still lose against BKs, GHPs, TBRs, and EBJs.

so instead of pooching the SMN visually for the sake of one build whose "meta" will come and go anyhow, how about..:IDK asking PGI to address the REAL issues, like hardpoint starvation mixed with tonnage starvation?

Course, I just sacrifice the perfect convergence on mine, because I'd rather not become useless with one alpha.

And while not as impressive for ppc speed, I'd rather poptart with my NOVA anyhow, personally.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 April 2016 - 01:42 PM.

[Kubernetes]

This is why I split my ERPPCs between the L and R arms. Yeah, I lose that great convergence, but I find it awfully risky to run both weapons in one arm. A couple unlucky hits and suddenly you're a 70 ton unarmed spotter. And yes, the Summoner could use a bunch more structure quirks.

[Scout Derek]

Okay, here it is, made a Gif out of it.



Notice how the Timber has it's arms way in the back as to the Hellbringer's and Summoner's arms. What I did notice after a bit, though, is that although the Summoner has longer barrels, know why? Jump Jets.

I'm experimenting a bit more so expect more gifs and pics to come.

[Bishop Steiner]

Scout Derek, on 20 April 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Okay, here it is, made a Gif out of it.



Notice how the Timber has it's arms way in the back as to the Hellbringer's and Summoner's arms. What I did notice after a bit, though, is that although the Summoner has longer barrels, know why? Jump Jets.

I'm experimenting a bit more so expect more gifs and pics to come.

er...because locked Hoverjets are something we need to comp for on a mech without Endo?

[Scout Derek]

Another, check this out.



Notice how they have the SAME, arm length, but larger barrel. Much difference? No not really, the barrels are just, as Aresye says, .55 In. longer. Now next up is HBR and TBR comparison then HBR and SMR comparison.

For now I'm going to stop discussing and focus on this.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

er...because locked Hoverjets are something we need to comp for on a mech without Endo?

Hoverjets? How does Hoverjets apply to summoner? It jumps Just as fast a a Grasshopper, with 37.7~ Meters with 5 jump jets.

[Scout Derek]

TBR and HBR arm comparison.





Same length arm....

[Bishop Steiner]

Scout Derek, on 20 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Another, check this out.



Notice how they have the SAME, arm length, but larger barrel. Much difference? No not really, the barrels are just, as Aresye says, .55 In. longer. Now next up is HBR and TBR comparison then HBR and SMR comparison.

For now I'm going to stop discussing and focus on this.


Hoverjets? How does Hoverjets apply to summoner? It jumps Just as fast a a Grasshopper, with 37.7~ Meters with 5 jump jets.

and since the great jumpjet crash of 2014 even that ain't enough to "gimp" the mech when it still can't come close to being as effective as TBRs...which thanks to the S Torsos also have JJs?

What I'm saying is if they felt it having JJ was enough of a balancing issue that they felt they had to "counter it" with larger gun geometry, whoever made the call is looney, bro. Because thanks to the Endo, the SMN is still miles behind the TBR.

Hence I'm sorry I don't get the "guns big cuz JJs".

[Scout Derek]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

and since the great jumpjet crash of 2014 even that ain't enough to "gimp" the mech when it still can't come close to being as effective as TBRs...which thanks to the S Torsos also have JJs?

What I'm saying is if they felt it having JJ was enough of a balancing issue that they felt they had to "counter it" with larger gun geometry, whoever made the call is looney, bro. Because thanks to the Endo, the SMN is still miles behind the TBR.

Hence I'm sorry I don't get the "guns big cuz JJs".

I don't either right now, I'm just lost right now, waiting on Aresye to reply

But anyways, here's the other one. I'll be swaping summoner arms with the TBR now.



Barrels are indeed too long.

[Aresye]

Scout Derek, on 20 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Notice how they have the SAME, arm length, but larger barrel. Much difference? No not really, the barrels are just, as Aresye says, .55 In. longer. Now next up is HBR and TBR comparison then HBR and SMR comparison.

For now I'm going to stop discussing and focus on this.

Okay, so when placed exactly where the TBR's arms would be, the SMN's arm (while still longer) is closer to the TBR's. I won't deny that fact.

Guess what the TBR has though? A GIANT FREAKING TORSO TO PROTECT THE ARM!
Guess what is also has? Pretty much everything else that makes it a better mech than the SMN.

It can brawl better, poke better, shield better, has better hardpoints, and hell, it could probably even stick on a TC MK 6 and do dual PPCs with almost the same velocity better than the SMN.

[Bishop Steiner]

Longer, yes, but "too long" OMG no able to comp plox?

Seems a bit of a stretch. More of a stretch than the actual barrels, anyways.

[Scout Derek]

Here's the Timberwolf/ Summoner arm comparison.



Oddly enough Summoner arms wouldn't hurt the timber at all much, just a bit longer than where the CT is.

Maybe what I said earlier wasn't a bad idea after all...?

[Ghogiel]

Scout Derek, on 20 April 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

TBR and HBR arm comparison.





Same length arm....

Only problem is you made the SMN PPC small. You need to make the TBR PPC normal size.

[Scout Derek]

Aresye, on 20 April 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

Okay, so when placed exactly where the TBR's arms would be, the SMN's arm (while still longer) is closer to the TBR's. I won't deny that fact.

Guess what the TBR has though? A GIANT FREAKING TORSO TO PROTECT THE ARM!
Guess what is also has? Pretty much everything else that makes it a better mech than the SMN.

It can brawl better, poke better, shield better, has better hardpoints, and hell, it could probably even stick on a TC MK 6 and do dual PPCs with almost the same velocity better than the SMN.

I kind of laughed at Giant Freaking Torso. Wouldn't that make it a Torso magnet?

to be serious though, Of course the TBR is better in all ways, it's 75 tons, Endo and Ferro, Can swap pods to have either max or any amount of JJets. TBR was always better in the long run. Not to mention it's got a big engine to give it lovely good agility than most heavies unquirked.

So buff the Summoner Moar? Yes, i vote yes.

Change PPC arms? Maybe, undecided yet.

Ghogiel, on 20 April 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Only problem is you made the SMN PPC small. You need to make the TBR PPC normal size.

I didn't make it small, I took what Aresye had and Compared the two.

Which brings me to also:

The pictures aren't proportionate to one another IOW (in other words), they are at different zoom sizes thanks to the different dimensions of one another.

One way would be to take the models out of the game client and compare the two. I think a few know how to do that here?

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

Longer, yes, but "too long" OMG no able to comp plox?

Seems a bit of a stretch. More of a stretch than the actual barrels, anyways.

I already said it isn't likely that the SMN will ever be comp viable with the current hardpoints it has. My argument isn't about making it comp viable.

My argument is two-fold:
A. The size of the arm in relation to the torso and how much it juts out looks incredibly stupid and cartoony.
B. The overall usefulness of the mech is not enough to justify having such an easy to shoot weakness.

In other words, why would it be such a bad thing if the arm was shortened very slightly, or received a small structure buff? The WVR-6K's right arm has structure quirks, and when you pack 4 Large Lasers into it, actually does MORE damage than 2 CERPPCs, except without that pesky little problem of "missing" your shot entirely.

Scout Derek, on 20 April 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Change PPC arms? Maybe, undecided yet.

To be 100% clear, this is basically what I'm wanting in terms of size:



Game Breaking

[Lightfoot]

Nah, Thor is just a failed experiment for PGI. It's not a fast striker, it doesn't carry many weapons, and has no real armor and structure quirks to balance that flaw. It's hit boxes are all immense and it is in no way a brawler like in the lore. Stop fooling PGI into thinking they fixed their Thor's problems when they have not and have not tried. Trying to fix the Thor at this point is over-quirking it until it is popular. Then tone it down if it's too much.

The Thor was made when PGI had no data on how the Clan mechs would perform and it is just a flop. The Mad Cat did work, the Thor did not. Looks pretty though.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 20 April 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I already said it isn't likely that the SMN will ever be comp viable with the current hardpoints it has. My argument isn't about making it comp viable.

My argument is two-fold:
A. The size of the arm in relation to the torso and how much it juts out looks incredibly stupid and cartoony.
B. The overall usefulness of the mech is not enough to justify having such an easy to shoot weakness.

In other words, why would it be such a bad thing if the arm was shortened very slightly, or received a small structure buff? The WVR-6K's right arm has structure quirks, and when you pack 4 Large Lasers into it, actually does MORE damage than 2 CERPPCs, except without that pesky little problem of "missing" your shot entirely.


To be 100% clear, this is basically what I'm wanting in terms of size:



Game Breaking

and taking 20 percent of the mechs mass and hanging it off one side of the mech shouldn't make it look silly lopsided and cartoony?

You are taking 2x6 ton cannons, and strapping them to it's wrist. You do realize that is akin to strapping 2x M243 SAWs to the forearm of a 220 lb man?

Would that look silly, lopsided and cartoony?

You mech should roll to the left and crash everytime you try to jump period, Mr Toons.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 April 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

and taking 20 percent of the mechs mass and hanging it off one side of the mech shouldn't make it look silly lopsided and cartoony?

You are taking 2x6 ton cannons, and strapping them to it's wrist. You do realize that is akin to strapping 2x M243 SAWs to the forearm of a 220 lb man?

Would that look silly, lopsided and cartoony?

You mech should roll to the left and crash everytime you try to jump period, Mr Toons.

So please explain to me why the WVR-6K, which has nearly 50% of its entire tonnage loaded onto its right arm, and almost twice the weight of what the Summoner is carrying, doesn't have a larger arm?

Or perhaps maybe you forgot that this is a game? At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and you have yet to put forth an actual counter-argument as to why slightly shortening the PPC left arm and/or giving it a small structure buff is a bad idea.

So far your arguments have been (paraphrasing), "I don't want short arms," and, "I don't want meta poke/poptart comp tryhard mech." Neither of which will happen, nor am I proposing to make happen.

Edited by Aresye, 20 April 2016 - 03:00 PM.