89 replies to this topic

[Spider00x]

I love all these people arguing or bragging how easy it is to kill streak crows. just look at the goddammn FP maps the stats don't lie... clan is winning 90 of all scouting missions I'm having to break off good players from my 12 man's just to SLOW down the clan progression. Your avg clan mech is push to win where IS actually has to possess some sort of piloting skill like the almighty torso twist to survive. FP will die if something isnt done because no one in there right minds is going to fight under a long Tom esp. After cuing up for 10+ mins then have your leader board rank demolished by an OP artie. Strike.

Edited by Spider00x, 21 April 2016 - 06:22 AM.

[EvilCatEars]

Count Zero 74, on 20 April 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:

Happened every attack Phase so far, on every Planet we could attack or defend aggainst Clans they had 90% scouting wins after a dew hours. So I asked myself why is it ?

Clans intel advantage exists because they have better mechs for the mode.


The magnitude of Clan advantage (90%+ on intel gathering) comes from this:

-Clans bring their top mechs (Crows, Cheetahs, maybe Jenners IIc) or atleast good to average ones (Hunchbacks maybe Novas/SHCs). So far i have dropped in 35 scouting matches and saw bad clan mechs 3 times (2 times KFX, and once MLX)

-IS brings any mech - you can see top ones (Griffins, Firestarters), good ones (Hunchbacks, BJs, Jenners), average ones (Ravens, ECM Spider), bad ones (Commando, Vindicator) and potato ones (LRM Trebuchet for example)

So initial Clan advantage for their mechs (cXL engines, better lasers, lighter SRMs) gets reinforced by poor mech choices of the IS.

[Starbomber109]

EvilCatEars, on 21 April 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Clans intel advantage exists because they have better mechs for the mode.


The magnitude of Clan advantage (90%+ on intel gathering) comes from this:

-Clans bring their top mechs (Crows, Cheetahs, maybe Jenners IIc) or atleast good to average ones (Hunchbacks maybe Novas/SHCs). So far i have dropped in 35 scouting matches and saw bad clan mechs 3 times (2 times KFX, and once MLX)

-IS brings any mech - you can see top ones (Griffins, Firestarters), good ones (Hunchbacks, BJs, Jenners), average ones (Ravens, ECM Spider), bad ones (Commando, Vindicator) and potato ones (LRM Trebuchet for example)

So initial Clan advantage for their mechs (cXL engines, better lasers, lighter SRMs) gets reinforced by poor mech choices of the IS.

Are you saying the IS Trial selection is worse than the clan Trial selection? Because that certainly is true, especially for a 4v4 mode

[Cy Mitchell]

Count Zero 74, on 21 April 2016 - 02:18 AM, said:

Simple yeah, bring stuff theat can take on SkillCrows. Never would have thought of that.

Do u have a simple answer to this one too : How can I bring pilots that can take on SkillCrows ?

Hire some Clan dezgra Mercs to help you?

[ImperialKnight]

if the IS lance brings anything but Griffins or Blackjacks, that lance has had it.

I haven't seen any combi but 4x SRM GRF or 4x laservomit BJs beat 4x SCRs.

[maniacos]

gloowa, on 21 April 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

Because it's not how Battletech was designed. In BT, heavier mechs were better. Period. Even BT creator(s) said that while they aimed for lights to be way better than heavies at the game of hide-and-alphastrike, it didn't work in TT to the extent they wanted. So unless you re-design every light and medium mech from scratch for the purposes of MWO, give them either more weapons with less heat or more armor, there is only so much that can be done.

That's not true. First the idea is a balance between speed and armor/firepower. If you are fast, you are hard to hit, can do hit-and-run better, have objectives such as engaging smaller tactical points rather than dogfight big huge things. In BT you could fight against tanks, airplanes, could go stealth in and destroyed a generator or something, destroyed a communication infrastructure, even fight elementars or simply scouted a terrain or set up an ambush behind a small hill or buildings. Furthermore a wolfpack of lights been a huge threat for assault mechs that been on a bad position in a formation or alone.
Almost none of this is possible in MWO, besides maybe a wolfpack.

Quote

For lights to be useful, maps would need to be at very-low-minimum the size of polar highlands, and optimal size would be 4 polar highlands next to each other in a square. And the gamemode would need to be objective based. Only then there is a need for scouting. In current MWO maps, you just post at the center of the map and you see everything and can hit everything. So unless you are prepared to play 1h long matches that involve 30 minutes of forces closing in on each other and trying to get terrain advantage, you are going to have to accept the fact that only srm boat lights are worthwile.

Yes bigger maps is what I say since ever. But that would be a more tactical play, less arena-arcade what PGI made out of MWO.

Edited by maniacos, 21 April 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Most of the scout drops in unit queue have been close games actually. You know what happens to streakboats in unit scouting? They get focus fired. HARD. Then the firepower advantage we all know of in 12v12 gets rolling in 4v4, and clan loss.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Also another valid counter, as much as it is boring, take Lolcusts. Damn things are so fast, streak crows never catch them. Don't engage. Just grab intel and run. Steiner 4 mans were doing this last night. Had a Cicada squirrel around, never saw the other two mechs that dropped, and the Locust just stayed outside range of the streaks (that none of us brought cuz its not a good weapon in unit group if we have to fight tanky high DPS Shadowhawks or Griffins.)

[Dee Eight]

Then they just have to camp the extraction points.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Dee Eight, on 21 April 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

Then they just have to camp the extraction points.

That are random, and dont get a map popup, and are in spots that cant be reached in time, even if theu are found? Yep.

[Count Zero 74]

Ok, time to get serious since a lot of people don't seem to get the point.

The problem is NOT that the Skillcrow is OP or that there are no ways to counter it because the Skillcrow isn't OP and there ARE lots of counters.

The problem is even the worst Clan players can jump in a Crow and win a scouting match more often than not when your typical IS noob will have a hard time facing them.
So in the long run Clans win more matches and get the counter up to 90% real quick.

Right now there's 4:30 hours left in the attack phase and the 4 Planets the clanners attack are at 72,92,56,51 % (Bears and Jags a bit slow today? Whats up guys ?)

As soon as they reach 90% u can't play 12v12 anymore. In all my 12v12 matches since phase 3 release (about 40 or so) I had 1, I reapeat 1, match where on of the consumables was on IS side.

Edited by Count Zero 74, 21 April 2016 - 08:57 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Then remove solo scouting. Period. Get in a unit and affect the 12v12 maps.

[gloowa]

maniacos, on 21 April 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

That's not true. (...)

Well then. I guess Jordan Weisman (creator of Battletech) is wrong when he writes

Jordan Wiseman said:

Make Light 'Mechs useful and versatile - Light 'Mechs were included in the game to be used as scouts, flankers, and forward observers. Historically, these roles have appeared in BT fiction more than in game play, so one of our major goals is to make Light 'Mechs really useful.

Thank god he has an expert like you to tell him how wrong he is about the game he created.

source:
https://www.kickstar...h/posts/1541543

Also, thank you for making my point and posting a video of BT game with maps that dwarf polar highlands in size.

Edited by gloowa, 21 April 2016 - 09:01 AM.

[hybrid black]

Count Zero 74, on 21 April 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

No it didn't, Wolves had the FRR planet at 90%+ too last attack phase, think it was Czestreg or something. the Wolves for gods sake !!!

Only Clan that didn't manage it was the smoke Jags, looks like there's some kind of flaw in their genetic material

I don't know what Crack you are smoking but mercstar had Intel all night well getting that planet to 100 ours

[habu86]

Count Zero 74, on 21 April 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

As soon as they reach 90% u can't play 12v12 anymore. In all my 12v12 matches since phase 3 release (about 40 or so) I had 1, I reapeat 1, match where on of the consumables was on IS side.

All joking aside, you're not wrong to point out the Long Toms' game-breaking potential. Even if you plan to take the NS way of handling them, you can still get caught out, with the darn things activating in the middle of a match, before you've had a chance to prep.

You're also not wrong to point out that the SkillCrow counters may well lie beyond the average solo (and maybe even unit queue) denizen's willingness or ability to implement.

PGI can try to tweak things this way or that, but chances are they'll probably end up causing just as many problems as they fix.

Tbh, I think the answer to the situation is more on a metagaming level. That is to say, capable units need to think about how they approach the planetary battles at a strategic level, not just a tactical one.

When going on offense, the answer may well be try to dunk everything everything they can in order to secure as many pips (up to 100% if possible) before the Long Toms come into play, then shift to scouting queue to remedy the situation there while feeding counterattackers ghost drops to slow them down.

When fighting defensively, scouting matches become even more important, with priorities being split between holding pips and pushing their own scouting position to 90% and using Long Toms as a deterrent to further attacks on the planet.

Either way, units are going to have to start looking for their ace medium pilots (and training up enough folks to support them) and then start employing them to control the scouting queue.

Edited by habu86, 21 April 2016 - 09:18 AM.

[Count Zero 74]

hybrid black, on 21 April 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

I don't know what Crack you are smoking but mercstar had Intel all night well getting that planet to 100 ours

There are different attack phases u know. I think there 3 of them right ?

oh and btw, if you had it at 100% all night why have the wolves captured it then ?

You lost a planet WHILE u had the long tom on your side? Has MS become so bad ?

[Count Zero 74]

Breaking news: 18:29 PM UTC, Wolves have the Planet Harvest (FRR) at 100% scouting wins.

Thought MS had it under control.

[hybrid black]

Count Zero 74, on 21 April 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

There are different attack phases u know. I think there 3 of them right ?

oh and btw, if you had it at 100% all night why have the wolves captured it then ?

You lost a planet WHILE u had the long tom on your side? Has MS become so bad ?

i was referring to the planet not scouting then we stopped scouting and moved to stiner to get it under 90% to send in 12 mans to save the planet that we did

Count Zero 74, on 21 April 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Breaking news: 18:29 PM UTC, Wolves have the Planet Harvest (FRR) at 100% scouting wins.

Thought MS had it under control.

we dont have anyone on to carry you scrubs sorry


i mean do people really care about the euro hour? not like there is much challenge at this time of day

Edited by hybrid black, 21 April 2016 - 09:46 AM.

[maniacos]

gloowa, on 21 April 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

Thank god he has an expert like you to tell him how wrong he is about the game he created.

No, the actually confirms what I said: Lights had a use in BT "Historically, these roles have appeared in BT fiction" and they tried to make them useful in gameplay too. That would be PGI's job now, not Jordan's. He acknowledges the existence of lights and agrees that it makes sense to have a major goal to give them the meaning they had in the BT fiction. What I listed in my post was the jobs they had in the books.

Quote

Also, thank you for making my point and posting a video of BT game with maps that dwarf polar highlands in size.

I didn't answer with the video to polar. I posted it to show that different gameplay would be possible if even hobby programmers can do that.

Edited by maniacos, 21 April 2016 - 10:08 AM.

[gloowa]

maniacos, on 21 April 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

No, the actually confirms what I said: Lights had a use in BT "Historically, these roles have appeared in BT fiction" and they tried to make them useful in gameplay too.

Yes. You are totally right. Him saying that lights only worked in fiction, and were pretty much useless in TT proves that i was wrong to say lights were inferior to anything heavier in TT. Good argument sir.