129 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 April 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

That's just one flamer though is it not? Most builds should be running 2 at the very least.

When you reach the heat cap, it makes no difference. You get full dissipation, actually.

Before you reach the heat cap...it's a different story, and the heat bar is FUBAR and buggy. You're kinda better off waiting until you're maxed out, otherwise you risk going over instead of being safe.

In that last 10%, unless you're jumping, it shouldn't matter how many Flamers are shooting you.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 21 April 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

When you reach the heat cap, it makes no difference. You get full dissipation, actually.

Before you reach the heat cap...it's a different story, and the heat bar is FUBAR and buggy. You're kinda better off waiting until you're maxed out, otherwise you risk going over instead of being safe.

The goal with flamers isn't necessarily to force them to shut down though, especially for pure energy boats, it is to heat cap them early so they don't even have the early burst of accurate damage than they often enjoy. The ability to limit DPS by early heat cap is not something that should be underestimated.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 April 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

The goal with flamers isn't necessarily to force them to shut down though, especially for pure energy boats, it is to heat cap them early so they don't even have the early burst of accurate damage than they often enjoy. The ability to limit DPS by early heat cap is not something that should be underestimated.

Just saying, reverting to a single Flamer towards the end has a similar result (without the 4+ HPS to yourself)

[sycocys]

TercieI, on 21 April 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

True but it has all its mounts effectively in the same place and it has structure quirks. A16 with very focused launch is highly effective, especially against lights. Make it super jumpy and add a couple flamers...I keep going back and forth on which I like better, it's an interesting trade off.

If you were going to run it with srm4s you'd be much better off use LPL and keeping the speed with an xl300 so you can at least kite with brawling lights.

[TercieI]

sycocys, on 21 April 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

If you were going to run it with srm4s you'd be much better off use LPL and keeping the speed with an xl300 so you can at least kite with brawling lights.

That's a terrible build. Way too hot, not enough ammo, gives up Artemis (and JJ!) and doesn't even gain anything of value.

Edited by TercieI, 21 April 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[Paigan]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 21 April 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

[...]
What am I doing wrong, if these things are supposed to be balanced?

Lorewise, the difference would be even bigger (e.g. no quirk magic), but a single SCR would have to take on 2-3 Griffins. That's how they are supposed to be balanced.

I'm the opposite of a lore zealot, but I find that "asymmetrical balance" quite nice. Russ' attempt to bring two vastly different techs on par does not only ruin the quite original concept, but also still doesn't suffice. Sometimes IS Mechs are weaker despite their quirks. Sometimes they are overquirked and OP.

Edited by Paigan, 21 April 2016 - 11:25 AM.

[sycocys]

TercieI, on 21 April 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

That's a terrible build. Way too hot, not enough ammo, gives up Artemis (and JJ!) and doesn't even gain anything of value.

How much ammo do you think you need against 4 medium or light mechs? Seriously, if you can't get it done with 2.5 tons you have an aiming problem, that's all the ammo you need to roll into full 12v12 matches with.
Artemis isn't needed with srm4, nice bonus but its just not necessary.
You never need JJ.
Cool shots deal with heat in the event an encounter lasts more than 10 seconds - against 4 lights though? Come on, maybe against crows, but lights?
2 LPL will pinpoint damage anywhere you need it - primarily legs if they are running lights or which ever torso section opens up first if they are running something bigger.

[maniacos]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 21 April 2016 - 12:37 AM, said:

So they are just flat out better?

I was under the impression PGI had balanced clan tech (I'm not a light or medium pilot so I had just assumed it applied to those weight classes as well)?

Yes they are flat out better in TT and Books. In TT you have 10vs12 to make it a bit more equal. In MWO you always have 12v12 that's why IS has quirks and stuff (had more tonnage per drop what got removed after Clans complained IS being too strong). PGI is still trying hard to balance their game, with 4v4 another aspect came into play, you have a weight limit of 55 what really narrows the choices of Clans and the Crow is by far one of the best in that weight range.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

sycocys, on 21 April 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

that's all the ammo you need to roll into full 12v12 matches with.

No its not, the typical build runs at least 4 tons of ammo, but it also has no backup weapons.

sycocys, on 21 April 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

Artemis isn't needed with srm4, nice bonus but its just not necessary.
You never need JJ.

Both are wrong, especially with the 3M which can place accurate shots at 270m thanks to the tight convergence, artemis only enhances this. JJs are needed in some cases for maneuvering over broken terrain on certain maps, it can also help shift aim at times.

sycocys, on 21 April 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

2 LPL will pinpoint damage anywhere you need it - primarily legs if they are running lights or which ever torso section opens up first if they are running something bigger.

2 LPLs isn't enough firepower, it is better to concentrate either on going for all SRMs or going all laser vomit, not mixing the two; at least on mediums.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 April 2016 - 11:46 AM.

[TercieI]

sycocys, on 21 April 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

How much ammo do you think you need against 4 medium or light mechs? Seriously, if you can't get it done with 2.5 tons you have an aiming problem, that's all the ammo you need to roll into full 12v12 matches with.
Artemis isn't needed with srm4, nice bonus but its just not necessary.
You never need JJ.
Cool shots deal with heat in the event an encounter lasts more than 10 seconds - against 4 lights though? Come on, maybe against crows, but lights?
2 LPL will pinpoint damage anywhere you need it - primarily legs if they are running lights or which ever torso section opens up first if they are running something bigger.

Oh, just for four mans, I'd still want 4 tons, but 30% cooling in what's going to be an extended brawl and likely facing flamers...no, just no.

[Marmon Rzohr]

TercieI, on 21 April 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

True but it has all its mounts effectively in the same place and it has structure quirks. A16 with very focused launch is highly effective, especially against lights. Make it super jumpy and add a couple flamers...I keep going back and forth on which I like better, it's an interesting trade off.

Exactly. Four SRM4s fire much quicker and have a significantly tighter spread. Unless you are shooting assaults or some heavies at very close ranges the SRM4s will give you the same damage to the targeted component, but with more DPS and less heat.

sycocys, on 21 April 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

How much ammo do you think you need against 4 medium or light mechs? Seriously, if you can't get it done with 2.5 tons you have an aiming problem, that's all the ammo you need to roll into full 12v12 matches with.
Artemis isn't needed with srm4, nice bonus but its just not necessary.
You never need JJ.
Cool shots deal with heat in the event an encounter lasts more than 10 seconds - against 4 lights though? Come on, maybe against crows, but lights?
2 LPL will pinpoint damage anywhere you need it - primarily legs if they are running lights or which ever torso section opens up first if they are running something bigger.

It's an interesting idea to intentionally skimp on ammo if you are going to be playing 4v4. I like that min-maxing
However, JJs are too valueable to give up, as is the extreme accuracy you get win ASRMs on the 3M. JJs effectively give you more armor and sometimes free trades. So it's probably a better idea to drop the LPLs for MPLs and get some JJs and heatsinks. IS LPLs aren't that fantastic without quirks anyway.

Another thing to keep in mind is that sustained firepower is even more important in 4v4 since you wont die as quickly in a brawl as you would in 12v12 and as the fight keeps going the low-heat damage of SRMs gives you a very big advantage.

Side note:
It seems like the Shadowhawk brawler (AC10 and SRMs) might be very good for 4v4 because it's extreme ammo-dependant nature isn't much of a problem.

[Rampancy]

Isolani, on 21 April 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

On a Jenner IIc, 4 X SRM4 + 2 X SRM2 = 40pt alpha, and zero ghost heat. And the heat from firing 20 SRMs is substantial, even without ghost heat.

It's 16 heat for 40 points of damage. A 2.5x dmg/heat ratio ain't bad.

Still think you're probably better off with 48 for 18, split firing to keep the convergence spread down. 40 for 16 is easier to use but has a lower ceiling.

[Vxheous]

DovisKhan, on 21 April 2016 - 01:37 AM, said:

When you say IS have best of the best and call others misinformed it would help your cause to point out those best of the best

Oxide is great, but it's on par with Jenner IIC, while Cheetah is still better than both


Black Knight is good as laser vomit, but it's slower, has no JJ and doesn't have the options to pack SRMs like timber, making it worse in all except for one thing - laser vomit exchange

If the Cheetah is better than both, then why are most MRBC teams using their duplicates on either the Jenner IIc or the Oxide, and then bringing whichever Jenner they didn't duplicate? In terms of Black Knight vs Timber, yes the Timber can do a whole variety of builds, while the BK is a one-trick pony, but that one-trick is currently the meta, and the BK rules in under 500m engagements.

[TercieI]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 21 April 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

If the Cheetah is better than both, then why are most MRBC teams using their duplicates on either the Jenner IIc or the Oxide, and then bringing whichever Jenner they didn't duplicate? In terms of Black Knight vs Timber, yes the Timber can do a whole variety of builds, while the BK is a one-trick pony, but that one-trick is currently the meta, and the BK rules in under 500m engagements.

He's wiser than all Tier One comp teams and players. Haven't you been reading?

[Vxheous]

TercieI, on 21 April 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

He's wiser than all Tier One comp teams and players. Haven't you been reading?

I've caught up now, something buggy happened and my post just appeared now instead of last night....

[Lykaon]

John1352, on 21 April 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

1v1 a SPL Firestarter outperforms a SPL Cheetah. Cheetah is more valuable in ordinary matches due to ECM and range, but those are less important in light 4v4.

1v1 really?

The Arctic Cheetah Has 36 dmg alph vs Firestarter 24 alpha Cheetah wins
The Arctic Cheetah has 165/297 range vs Firestarter 110/220 Cheetah wins
Arctic Cheetah has ECM Firestarter doesn't
Arctic Cheetah has a CLAN XL ENGINE! this is why the Cheetah wins most engagments vs any I.S. light mech.

Over all I can think of only two advantages the Firestarter has

1: heat efficency is better 50% cooling efficency vs Cheetah's 35%
2: Speed 146.8 kph with 295XL and speed tweak vs the Cheetah with 139 kph with a clan 240XL and tweak.

Many people will argue the Firestarter has 5 more tons that means more payload and armor> And is pretty much offset by superior clan weapon damage and lighter smaller clan equipment. (proven by the cheetah having as many jumpjets as it does as well as an ECM and an identical 6 sml pulse laser weapon payload.)


Vegas has the smart money on the Arctic Cheetah vs any Inner Sphere light mech.

[TercieI]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 21 April 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

I've caught up now, something buggy happened and my post just appeared now instead of last night....

LOL, no worries, my frustration was not with you. It's Rule #1 of Forum Participation: Know Who's Talking. There really aren't a lot of top flight pilots (knowledgeable, skilled and experienced) who are active on these forums (much more informed level of conversation on Outreach). When you are arguing against Quicksilver, Deathlike, Mcgral and myself (and called one of us, Mcgral I think, a noob), you have failed utterly to Know Who's Talking. Frankly, the only reason I engage with such clothheadedness is so other less knowledgeable players won't be misled. I spend a fair amount of effort trying to help less experienced players here because I really believe that a higher level of play for all is more enjoyable for all and makes a better game. There's nothing wrong with being less expert, but to not recognize it and be willing to take correction is simply foolish (see my deference to Quicksilver's larger experience with GRFs on the last page for an example). Sadly, this sort of blind-trying-to-lead-the-other-blind is de rigeur here.

EDIT: I'm sorry if that comes off arrogant, but lots and lots of top level players have abandoned these forums due to just this frustration and I'd hate to lose even more.

Edited by TercieI, 21 April 2016 - 01:06 PM.

[Revis Volek]

DovisKhan, on 21 April 2016 - 02:17 AM, said:

They drop double oxides because it's an older mech that they have and are used to, there is no other justification, because it's simply inferior number wise



Quad SRM timber will still be packing clan medium lasers, 5 of them, at 35 damage > 33 from lpls, with the same range, 438 for maxed lpl range vs 440 cml, is mls won't reach


That means if BK is packing pulse lasers - he's not packin any higher ranged lasers and that means he just matches the SRM timber in medium range while is severely outgunned once srms come into play


As for copying and blindly following pro meta, I'm always tier 1, rank 1 or whatever 1 in any game I play because I first crunch the numbers and the rest follow naturally, since I always have the edge build wise

You sir have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


I got all the laughs i needed for the week out of this thread. Thanks guys

[Deathlike]

I see a lot of Paul in this thread.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[jaxjace]

You are trying to splat against better splat, boat Large pulse lasers, stay back, and hammer the **** out of them with cool 33 point strikes, add in modules to make yourself a super mech.


You are also trying to out tank with standard engines against clan XLS of the same class, unless he is a horrendous shot, and you are REALLY good at twisting and spreading, he will win. You already gave him one of your only advantages, speed. The griffon can go faster than the stormcrow, and mount an efficient weapons loadout.

or keep your splat builds, Go max XL, fit as many srms on as possible, and adopt hit and run tactics, remember to use your jump jets, the crow gets none. Jump jetting can spread damage, allow for flanking attacks from up high, and allow you to poptart Srm volleys behind cover.

2N
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f96a00b2f7549ea

3M
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9745b532a07515a

1S
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fffd71f25db5f39

1N
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4bd3a0a7192e781

Sparky
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...96e702b7e0f3971