129 replies to this topic

[S 0 L E N Y A]

SCR is a great mech, no doubt.

But this thread is full of partisan (faction) fail.

Meta fail too.

You cant take a look at some of the numbers involved and ignore the others.

Keep fearing the unbeatable SCR.

Edited by Boogie138, 21 April 2016 - 03:50 AM.

[DovisKhan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 21 April 2016 - 03:41 AM, said:

LOL, sure...you are the only one calculating.

Fat troll, you should be gratful because I 'm feeding you

One might get an impression like that, otherwise there wouldn't be any debate, IIC is flat out superior number wise, hell, it can mount 4 or 5 CSSRM4 vs the Oxide with 4 SRM4, giving you more range and 100% accuracy, no way is the oxide winning that matchup.

IIC simply does every role better:


Backstabbing specialist:

IIC with 72 dmg alpha

Oxide - can't do that


Brawler-Scout:

IIC can pack 4 or 5 X CSSRM4 (depending on how fast you want to go) giving it anti-light mech capability

Oxide can't do that


Skirmisher:


SRM24 vs SRM16, 50% edge to IIC at the cost of 20% structure, 50% > 20%


IIC wins again


LRM boat:


IIC can effectively use 6 X LRM5, moving at 140kph this makes it one of the best LRM boats out there, because you can circle the opponent and pepper it from the back while maintaining line of sigt from afar, if they chase you, your team will have an easy time death-balling them


not an option to Oxide

Edited by DovisKhan, 21 April 2016 - 03:54 AM.

[Johnny Z]

DovisKhan, on 21 April 2016 - 03:53 AM, said:

One might get an impression like that, otherwise there wouldn't be any debate, IIC is flat out superior number wise, hell, it can mount 4 or 5 CSSRM4 vs the Oxide with 4 SRM4, giving you more range and 100% accuracy, no way is the oxide winning that matchup.

IIC simply does every role better:


Backstabbing specialist:

IIC with 72 dmg alpha

Oxide - can't do that


Brawler-Scout:

IIC can pack 4 or 5 X CSSRM4 (depending on how fast you want to go) giving it anti-light mech capability

Oxide can't do that


Skirmisher:


SRM24 vs SRM16, 50% edge to IIC at the cost of 20% structure, 50% > 20%


IIC wins again


LRM boat:


IIC can effectively use 6 X LRM5, moving at 140kph this makes it one of the best LRM boats out there, because you can circle the opponent and pepper it from the back while maintaining line of sigt from afar, if they chase you, your team will have an easy time death-balling them


not an option to Oxide

Anything that can boat C Streaks will destroy any inner Sphere light with ease. The Storm Crows durability, speed and its C Streak packing ability is what makes it extreme.

I just put 3 Streak 2's on my Centurian just now and am having my way in Scouting. Over 600 damage and walked away first match without modules. This is with an LBX-10 which I am trying out for fun.

Edited by Johnny Z, 21 April 2016 - 03:59 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Immediately.. things you are doing wrong?

1) making terrible griffin builds that dont even use all the tonnage or have JJs (swap engine to XL300 for a start, XL315 is not efficient for the speed gain over the 300, and you still have slots).
2) Comparing stats on paper and not in actual game play. Paper stats dont show the effects of different spreads/beamtimes/agility etc. They are a good way of comparing like for like (IS build vs IS build) but are a terrible way of comparing Clan to IS - smurphy will ALWAYS make clan mechs look OP.

[STEF_]

DovisKhan, on 21 April 2016 - 03:53 AM, said:

One might get an impression like that, otherwise there wouldn't be any debate, IIC is flat out superior number wise, hell, it can mount 4 or 5 CSSRM4 vs the Oxide with 4 SRM4, giving you more range and 100% accuracy, no way is the oxide winning that matchup.

IIC simply does every role better:


Backstabbing specialist:

IIC with 72 dmg alpha

Oxide - can't do that


Brawler-Scout:

IIC can pack 4 or 5 X CSSRM4 (depending on how fast you want to go) giving it anti-light mech capability

Oxide can't do that


Skirmisher:


SRM24 vs SRM16, 50% edge to IIC at the cost of 20% structure, 50% > 20%


IIC wins again


LRM boat:


IIC can effectively use 6 X LRM5, moving at 140kph this makes it one of the best LRM boats out there, because you can circle the opponent and pepper it from the back while maintaining line of sigt from afar, if they chase you, your team will have an easy time death-balling them


not an option to Oxide

Ok, I'll try to take you seriously and , as I wrote, I hope you bring your *** in comp drops.

In my team there has been a debate about IIC and Oxide. With testing.
They are very close.
About the 4 config you wrote about jenner IIC, three are troll builds, and one is bad...so nope
We are bringing at comp matches only the 40 alpha jenner IIC.

BUT, the debate was there, 'cause it's very close, thanks to oxide structure and high dps. So, it depends on situation and maps.

[DovisKhan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 21 April 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

Ok, I'll try to take you seriously and , as I wrote, I hope you bring your *** in comp drops.

In my team there has been a debate about IIC and Oxide. With testing.
They are very close.
About the 4 config you wrote about jenner IIC, three are troll builds, and one is bad...so nope
We are bringing at comp matches only the 40 alpha jenner IIC.

BUT, the debate was there, 'cause it's very close, thanks to oxide structure and high dps. So, it depends on situation and maps.

1) How is 40 alpha better than 48? At 40 you trigger ghost heat anyway, so you're just gimping yourself by dropping 20% damage, and it's just 3 more ghost heat, it's really insignificant.

and 2 by 3 is worse than 3 by 3 if you avoid ghost heat.

Of course when you intentionally gimp yourself like that, IIC doesn't seem that much superior


2) How are streaks a troll build exactly? You carry the same alpha as an Oxide just with 100% accuracy at longer range


3) 72 alpha is inefficient, yes, but it's within the realm of possibilities

4) LRM boats have a bad rep, but 6 X LRM5 is efficient and at long/safe range you really get the max value out of your 35 ton mech, going for ~1k dmg is sure easier and safer in this build than any other you can put on a 35 tonner

[STEF_]

DovisKhan, on 21 April 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

1) How is 40 alpha better than 48? At 40 you trigger ghost heat anyway, so you're just gimping yourself by dropping 20% damage, and it's just 3 more ghost heat, it's really insignificant.

and 2 by 3 is worse than 3 by 3 if you avoid ghost heat.

Of course when you intentionally gimp yourself like that, IIC doesn't seem that much superior

Because when you are going to test a build, u must take into account many factors, not only alpha and GH.
Speed (aka engine weight), and ammo tons, how many JJ, and DHS if it's the case.
We have tested 36 to 48 dmg jenner IIC, using engine from 280 to 315, and various tons for ammo/JJ.
The one more reliable has been the 40 dmg jenner. Above all because a no quircked jenner should never go below 300xl.

With that said, streaks are bad.

[Meathook]

Stefka Kerensky, on 21 April 2016 - 04:59 AM, said:

With that said, streaks are bad.

This. His praising of Streaks tells more than a thousand words...

[DovisKhan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 21 April 2016 - 04:59 AM, said:

Because when you are going to test a build, u must take into account many factors, not only alpha and GH.
Speed (aka engine weight), and ammo tons, how many JJ, and DHS if it's the case.
We have tested 36 to 48 dmg jenner IIC, using engine from 280 to 315, and various tons for ammo/JJ.
The one more reliable has been the 40 dmg jenner. Above all because a no quircked jenner should never go below 300xl.

With that said, streaks are bad.

1) 139.3 vs 149.3, 7% difference, way less significant than the 1.5 additional tons it costs, since you are already faster than any other clan mech beside ACH who also moves at 139 and you get more ammo and 20% more damage.

48 vs 40 can make a difference between needing to land 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 alphas and that's a lot more exposure

2) Yes streaks are so bad, they totally are not boated vs light mechs in scouting drops

Meathook, on 21 April 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

This. His praising of Streaks tells more than a thousand words...

It's a tool with specific purpose, that purpose being light/medium mech brawling, with the new game mode it became relevant, just cause you are not up to date, does not mean a weapon system has no use

Edited by DovisKhan, 21 April 2016 - 05:16 AM.

[Isolani]

DovisKhan, on 21 April 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

1) How is 40 alpha better than 48? At 40 you trigger ghost heat anyway, so you're just gimping yourself by dropping 20% damage, and it's just 3 more ghost heat, it's really insignificant.

On a Jenner IIc, 4 X SRM4 + 2 X SRM2 = 40pt alpha, and zero ghost heat. And the heat from firing 20 SRMs is substantial, even without ghost heat.

[Meathook]

Keep telling yourself you're "up to date"

[TercieI]

Your numbers are incomplete, Dovis. DPS isn't everything. Oxide dominates IIC on missile speed and spread, so its damage is much more effective. Also, it's a smaller and tougher target. The IIC is made of wet paper and much easier to hit cleanly. In practical experience, the Oxide outperforms the IIC. Your suggestion that top teams take it due to familiarity is absurd. We start looking for angles to use new mechs as soon as they drop and do a lot of testing and discussing even before mechs are tourney legal so we're ready when they are, because if we don't our competitors will.

[DovisKhan]

Meathook, on 21 April 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

Keep telling yourself you're "up to date"

Empty claims with no arguments, streaks are bad because reasons... you are not worth my time unless you bring something more substantial, at least the other guy has arguments, which for his play-style might by accurate.

TercieI, on 21 April 2016 - 05:21 AM, said:

Your numbers are incomplete, Dovis. DPS isn't everything. Oxide dominates IIC on missile speed and spread, so its damage is much more effective. Also, it's a smaller and tougher target. The IIC is made of wet paper and much easier to hit cleanly. In practical experience, the Oxide outperforms the IIC. Your suggestion that top teams take it due to familiarity is absurd. We start looking for angles to use new mechs as soon as they drop and do a lot of testing and discussing even before mechs are tourney legal so we're ready when they are, because if we don't our competitors will.

It doesn't have a spread quirk, what info am I lacking here? Does IS srms have an innate tighter spread?

True on the speed and cd reduct

[Meathook]

No arguments delivered because you seem to ignore valid arguments. Just think a bit about that "100% accuracy" where you have no control over hit location, or mandatory missile lock seriously hampering BnZ abilities, and you might get why people are dismissing your DPS numbers as your only argument for the IIC. But whatever. Keep your IIC, I always have C-Bill signs in my eyes when spotting one while piloting my Oxide.

[STEF_]

DovisKhan, on 21 April 2016 - 05:15 AM, said:

1) 139.3 vs 149.3, 7% difference, way less significant than the 1.5 additional tons it costs, since you are already faster than any other clan mech beside ACH who also moves at 139 and you get more ammo and 20% more damage.

Sorry but you are thinking in the wrong way.
It's not about speed comparison, but timing.
149.3kph seems to be only 7% better...but it's a good dman better speed to cover when needed, to help a teamate when needed, to harass a dmg ememy when needed. And also enemies have much more difficult to aim at a 149.3 target than a 139 one.

[TercieI]

DovisKhan, on 21 April 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

Empty claims with no arguments, streaks are bad because reasons... you are not worth my time unless you bring something more substantial, at least the other guy has arguments, which for his play-style might by accurate.



It doesn't have a spread quirk, what info am I lacking here? Does IS srms have an innate tighter spread?

True on the speed and cd reduct

Yes, IS SRMs are (noticeably) tighter. And the Oxide's mounts are closer than the IICs if you don't dead side the IIC.

Edited by TercieI, 21 April 2016 - 05:36 AM.

[sycocys]

Try running this 2N, ECM is either or for me. Probably wouldn't bother if I was solo dropping and sacrifice some armor and a half-full ton of ammo for MPL, although having a full shield arm is pretty helpful to suck up most of the early volleys.

Either way it bumps up your alpha shot and gives you some pinpoint damage. Should work pretty effectively until people start switching away from streaks anyhow.

[Marmon Rzohr]

sycocys, on 21 April 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

Try running this 2N, ECM is either or for me. Probably wouldn't bother if I was solo dropping and sacrifice some armor and a half-full ton of ammo for MPL, although having a full shield arm is pretty helpful to suck up most of the early volleys.

Either way it bumps up your alpha shot and gives you some pinpoint damage. Should work pretty effectively until people start switching away from streaks anyhow.

Why doesn't anyone mention the 3M ? Doesn't seem like ECM is that big of a deal in 4v4 (esp. because any streakboat will be bringing BAP to counter ECM) and the 3M is the best brawler of any of the Griffins due to incredibly tight SRM volleys, significantly more structure and the ability to use one torso as a shield if you go with a STD engine.

Granted the 2N is very close to the 3M, but I still prefer it for pure fighting. The 2N is more of a pugging mech with the ability to carry ECM and hill-peek with SRMs.
And yeah, people have said it before in this thread. The Stormcrow is very good, but IS mediums are better (not massively, but noticeably so), it might be terrifying with Streaks but that only works that well against light mechs.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 21 April 2016 - 06:09 AM.

[sycocys]

Marmon Rzohr, on 21 April 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

Why doesn't anyone mention the 3M ? Doesn't seem like ECM is that big of a deal in 4v4 (esp. because any streakboat will be bringing BAP to counter ECM) and the 3M is the best brawler of any of the Griffins due to incredibly tight SRM volleys, significantly more structure and the ability to use one torso as a shield if you go with a STD engine.

Granted the 2N is very close to the 3M, but I still prefer it for pure fighting. The 2N is more of a pugging mech with the ability to carry ECM and hill-peek with SRMs.
And yeah, people have said it before in this thread. The Stormcrow is very good, but IS mediums are better (not massively, but noticeably so), it might be terrifying with Streaks but that only works that well against light mechs.

3M can't run SRM6 with artemis and an xl engine so it ends up being significantly slower.

[TercieI]

sycocys, on 21 April 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

3M can't run SRM6 with artemis and an xl engine so it ends up being significantly slower.

True but it has all its mounts effectively in the same place and it has structure quirks. A16 with very focused launch is highly effective, especially against lights. Make it super jumpy and add a couple flamers...I keep going back and forth on which I like better, it's an interesting trade off.