42 replies to this topic

[Georgegad]

So was the new Faction scouting supposed to make it harder on IS and easier on clan? The IS mechs just cant fight the clan ones with equal firepower for tonnage. With larger teams it was sometimes possible to cut one or two away from the herd and kill them with focused fire. Now it is much easier for the clan to roll along with their four mechs and kill everyone. They dont even capture the objectives, they just roll through as a group and kill the IS mechs. When it is us stealing intel we can sneak around them and win about half our aggressive matches, assuming they dont get to the drop zone and kill us as we wait. But when they dont bother with the intel on their attacks and just deathball, they are almost guaranteed to win the majority of scenarios. I do like the idea of smaller teams and less waiting, but it only emphasizes the lopsided capabilities of most IS mechs vs clan ones.

[DeathlyEyes]

Of the 4 games I played I have 6 kills 8 kills most damage dealt and no deaths. The trick is to use either bj1x with 6 medium lasers and 2 medium pulse to leg/strip a few streak crows or whatever the clan side is using or to take something like the Griffin 2n or shadowhawk 2d2 loaded up with SRMs to out DPS the clan mechs.

[torgian]

That's the point. It IS the clan invasion after all, and Clan mechs are just superior to Inner Sphere mechs.

That said, it really comes down tot he skill of the players. I just played a Clan vs Clan match (freelancer) and both teams had storm crows. Two on my side, three on theirs, I was in a Nova and they had a light mech (jenner I think) and one of our guys was also a light (raven)

That said, we rolled over the three storm crows simply due to our skill and load outs.

I think Inner Sphere winning is possible, just depends on unit cohesion.

[Georgegad]

DeathlyEyes, on 20 April 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

  The trick is to use either bj1x with 6 medium lasers and 2 medium pulse to leg/strip a few streak crows or whatever the clan side is using or to take something like the Griffin 2n or shadowhawk 2d2 loaded up with SRMs to out DPS the clan mechs.

So you are saying it is only winable if i use a specific mech build and play style?  Not really interested in that, but thank you for your advice.I have certainly run different loadouts to test the options, i got 3SRM6 on my mech with a pair of pulse las, but still doesnt do enough damage in the two or three shots i got off with them to stop the rush.The ERLL went OK, but again not enough shots in before they unloaded to take one down.   I have a kitted out Small Pulse build, also didnt drop one, even though it did about the best damage of any.Was chating with someone who went the Ac20 rout to try to over power them, he was very upset he wasted his time and cbills because he hit them again and again and didnt drop them before he died.I think i am out of weapon combos to try, none of them really worked well enough to make a difference.

Edited by Georgegad, 20 April 2016 - 08:06 AM.

[DarklightCA]

That's how this game works, people pick loadouts that work for their situation and map and you pick loadouts that counter them. If picking specific mechs and loadouts are beneath you to win your games than you are likely not going to win a lot of your games.

GRF-2N's with ECM and accurate SRM's > Streak Crows. Streak crows splash there damage everywhere, GRF-2N's has better SRM spread which allows you to completely focus your alpha on where you need it to go like legs. You can try long range and try to kite but Crows are not slow, they can catch you if they want to.

[Georgegad]

torgian, on 20 April 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

That's the point. It IS the clan invasion after all, and Clan mechs are just superior to Inner Sphere mechs.

</p> Agreed.  And i have said the same thing many times myself when i hear others say the same thing i did.... That still doesnt make it a fun game.  I am not really interested in loging on to feed mechs into a bunch of pay to wins and make them feel good about themselves.I do like mechwarrior and have been playing it in every incarnation since pen and paper, but if it is set up for me to be the loser for someone elses game, i doubt there is anyone who doesnt have something better than that to do with their time.Certainly it is possible for IS to win, some days even overpowered clanners have bad matches or get a disconected teammate, i am not sure i want to spend my game days waiting for matches like that to come along.  It isnt very satisfying to know the times you win are most likely only because the other team sucked more than expected.

[Georgegad]

DarklightCA, on 20 April 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

If picking specific mechs and loadouts are beneath you to win your games than you are likely not going to win a lot of your games.

Can you convince everyone else who enters the game to also buy the specific mech that can win.  I dont have time to stop each of them before they make their first mech purchase and explain that there are only two mechs worth buying and they have to have a specific loadout or they cant win.  If every one of them doesnt read your advice and choose the mech you suggest and play the way you say they have to, then the rest of us can never win.Or you can just admit that it is unlikeley to ever have that one magic team that will beat the clan in a fair match.

[DarklightCA]

Georgegad, on 20 April 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

Can you convince everyone else who enters the game to also buy the specific mech that can win. I dont have time to stop each of them before they make their first mech purchase and explain that there are only two mechs worth buying and they have to have a specific loadout or they cant win. If every one of them doesnt read your advice and choose the mech you suggest and play the way you say they have to, then the rest of us can never win.Or you can just admit that it is unlikeley to ever have that one magic team that will beat the clan in a fair match.

It's not about telling them to bring specific loadouts or mechs, it's about telling them to bring something that can counter what the enemy is bringing and that is the case in any game. If some pug team liked LRM's and that's what they wanted to bring to fight streak crows, how effective do you honestly believe they are going to be? Would you tell them not to bring that or would you suggest to them something that can actually counter streak crows.

[Georgegad]

DarklightCA, on 20 April 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

It's not about telling them to bring specific loadouts or mechs,

You have just spent the previous post saying otherwise and suggesting if i didnt bring exactly that mech i was asking to lose.  I certainly didnt happen to guess the mech you picked, but i did choose a number of different attack methods as you can read above.  Some were better than others but there was no combination that stood fairly with any of the clan mechs.  They have any number of choices and they all out power my mech choices.  If i do take something that works against streaks, it will only die to one with a massive stack of clan lasers.  They have other mech options as well, and theirs are all better in most ways than IS ones of the same weight.

Edited by Georgegad, 20 April 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[DarklightCA]

Georgegad, on 20 April 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

You have just spent the previous post saying otherwise and suggesting if i didnt bring exactly that mech i was asking to lose. I certainly didnt happen to guess the mech you picked, but i did choose a number of different attack methods as you can read above. Some were better than others but there was no combination that stood fairly with any of the clan mechs. They have any number of choices and they all out power my mech choices. If i do take something that works against streaks, it will only die to one with a massive stack of clan lasers. They have other mech options as well, and theirs are all better in most ways than IS ones of the same weight.

No I told you what mech counters streak crows, I also stated that if you are beneath taking specific mechs or loadouts to win than you are not likely to win. I did not state that you should only take the mechs I say you should take. The difference being me dictating to you that you should only play specific mechs that I tell you to play as suppose to me telling you that if you don't bring mechs and loadouts that can counter other mechs and loadouts than you aren't going to likely win your games.

[Georgegad]

DarklightCA, on 20 April 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

No I told you what mech counters streak crows,

You told me one mech configuration that if played a certain way can have a chance of countering one of the two or three mech combinations the clans have at their disposal.  As i see it we agree that if you come into mechwarrior, choose the mech you think you will like and the play style you will enjoy, then you are certain to lose every match.  The only way to be at all competitive is to choose set mechs and fit them out in a very specific way.  I do not see that as truly fair or competitive, it is simply a justification for not making the system fairer.  the things you say can be done to make the game fair are not in any way obvious to new players.  There is no way anyone coming into the game can be aware they have no chance with the mech they pick.  They dont know the two or three mechs that have an equal chance of winning and wouldnt know the magic way to customise them even if they did.

[Afuldan McKronik]

ECM, long range weapons, do a scout mission with three buddies, focus fire, specifically legs.

[Georgegad]

But my point of course, and the subject of the thread, since we have long accepted the clans had a tech advantage, was the new team sizes something people were aware was going to further widen inequality between factions.

Edited by Georgegad, 20 April 2016 - 01:10 PM.

[Khereg]

Georgegad, on 20 April 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

So you are saying it is only winable if i use a specific mech build and play style?

Haven't played the new mode yet (been out of town on business), but I have to ask: when has it ever NOT been like this? Units and knowledgeable players have worked for over a year to develop guides and strategies to increase the chances of winning in FW. See the link in my sig for a prime example lovingly maintained by Kin3ticX and gladly distributed to the community at large in an effort to elevate gameplay across the board.

There will always be a meta. There will always be strategies to counter the meta. Said metas and counters will always evolve over time in a continuous arms race. You're free to run whatever you want, however you want, but if you don't learn from the evolving meta, you're hampering your ability to compate and dragging down your team.

In other news, sun expected to rise again tomorrow.

Edited by Khereg, 20 April 2016 - 01:11 PM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Georgegad, on 20 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

You told me one mech configuration that if played a certain way can have a chance of countering one of the two or three mech combinations the clans have at their disposal. As i see it we agree that if you come into mechwarrior, choose the mech you think you will like and the play style you will enjoy, then you are certain to lose every match. The only way to be at all competitive is to choose set mechs and fit them out in a very specific way. I do not see that as truly fair or competitive, it is simply a justification for not making the system fairer. the things you say can be done to make the game fair are not in any way obvious to new players. There is no way anyone coming into the game can be aware they have no chance with the mech they pick. They dont know the two or three mechs that have an equal chance of winning and wouldnt know the magic way to customise them even if they did.

About half of MWO's learning curve is just understanding how to properly mechlab. If that is too much trouble and effort for you, I'm sure the XL Stalker Lurm boat crowd will happily take you back. This is a PvP game with players (and this may come as a shock to you ) playing to win. Crazy, right? If you don't wanna lose you have to do certain things, like build certain mechs to do a certain job or play in a certain manner.

TL;DR Git Gud or GTFO of 4v4

[Georgegad]

Khereg, on 20 April 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

Haven't played the new mode yet (been out of town on business), but I have to ask:  when has it ever NOT been like this?  .

It hasnt.As said, it is the same as it ever was.  The new format makes it even more so though and harder to split the clanmembers apart to pick them off.  Clan deathball is more effective in 4x4 than it was in 12x12.  I am just wondering if it was expected.

[Georgegad]

VorpalAnvil, on 20 April 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

This is a PvP game with players (and this may come as a shock to you ) playing to win.

TL;DR Git Gud or GTFO of 4v4

You mean paying to win, right?  If they wanted a competition they would use the same tools their opposition had.What i am hearing here, is that we just accept that the mechs are not balanced in general and only one or two IS mechs have a chance at all against the clan standard mechs.  And getting the strong impression that people think we should all just suck it up and learn to live with it.   .... well i hate to break it to you guys, but the game does not have a large enough player base to be that pig headed about it.  For such a great game with such a long historical fan base, you cant keep the players that do try the game.  Half the time you cant find a match.   I do like that there are smaller game sizes to compensate for that issue, but this is a step that had to be taken because people just dont stay around and play for long after they find out they are going to lose most matches.

Edited by Georgegad, 20 April 2016 - 01:26 PM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Georgegad, on 20 April 2016 - 01:18 PM, said:

You mean paying to win, right? If they wanted a competition they would use the same tools their opposition had.

Paying to win? What the hell are you talking about. I have nearly 100 mechs and have spent a grand total of 7 US dollars on this game. Go be a scrub somewhere else.

Georgegad, on 20 April 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

But my point of course, and the subject of the thread, since we have long accepted the clans had a tech advantage, was the new team sizes something people were aware was going to further widen inequality between factions.

By "we" I presume you mean all of the T5 IS loyalist units who still think it's 1985 and would rather roleplay CW on the forums than actually click the "Launch" button?

[MischiefSC]

DeathlyEyes, on 20 April 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Of the 4 games I played I have 6 kills 8 kills most damage dealt and no deaths. The trick is to use either bj1x with 6 medium lasers and 2 medium pulse to leg/strip a few streak crows or whatever the clan side is using or to take something like the Griffin 2n or shadowhawk 2d2 loaded up with SRMs to out DPS the clan mechs.

You're not average.

What we need to do is have a simple 1 page guide for scouting. I'm watching people drop locusts and go face-tank 55 tonners. Watching people go be actively bad and then get upset they lost.

We need a 1 page grab-n-go of good mechs, do this/don't do that we can point people to.

[Georgegad]

VorpalAnvil, on 20 April 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

By "we" I presume you mean all of the T5 IS loyalist units who still think it's 1985 </p>

LOL, you have a personal issue against older players.That is humorously small of you.  Moving on now and leaving you to your little petty grudge.