47 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

problem is that there is a middle ground where people are fairly competitive (not casual) in fw but arent willing to commit to a unit. i would say my fw game is far above casual level play. so thats why i kind of want solos to be able to opt in for unit queue games. after all units still need a few singles to fill in all the gaps.

[MischiefSC]

I'm game with waiting.


However people pugging in unit queue are in no way like soloists in solo queue. They are opting to fill in with units against units and play in the unit environment. That's the only reason to put on a tag.

If you threw me in the solo queue every time I tried to pug I just wouldn't pug and would play MWO significantly less overall.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

LordNothing, on 22 April 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

problem is that there is a middle ground where people are fairly competitive (not casual) in fw but arent willing to commit to a unit. i would say my fw game is far above casual level play. so thats why i kind of want solos to be able to opt in for unit queue games. after all units still need a few singles to fill in all the gaps.

If the split is according to being in a group or not (as opposed to in a unit or not) then solo players can still opt in to the Group Queue.

We have a tool for that: LFG.

Examples:

• Two casuals form a group = opt in to Group Queue.
  
• Unit has 11 players, wants 1 more for filler and grabs a solo from the LFG = opt in to Group Queue.

LFG is opt in to Group Queue.


We just need a tick box to "Auto-join LFG" and then give notice to groups when players are available.

Additionally, an LFM (Looking For More) parallel to LFG, where players can see what groups are running and need players, would be an excellent and useful tool.

Again, access.

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 22 April 2016 - 06:30 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 22 April 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

If the split is according to being in a group or not (as opposed to in a unit or not) then solo players can still opt in to the Group Queue.

We have a tool for that: LFG.

Examples:

• Two casuals form a group = opt in to Group Queue.
  
• Unit has 11 players, wants 1 more for filler and grabs a solo from the LFG = opt in to Group Queue.

LFG is opt in to Group Queue.

Except for skittles. If you were on the FRR border you can only pull CGB folks.

Plus many unit members absolutely in no way ever have an interest in dropping in solo queue.

How about you are either playing solo queue or pug queue? So if you don't want to play with units against units you go tagless? Then the problem becomes helping that population.

Admittedly CW itself as a game mode is one that hugely rewards teamwork so playing as someone who is absolutely against playing as a team (solo) in a team focused mode is going to struggle even in a solo only queue.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

Except for skittles. If you were on the FRR border you can only pull CGB folks.

Er, I don't get it...

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

Plus many unit members absolutely in no way ever have an interest in dropping in solo queue.

I believe that is true.

I also believe most premades would like to have good competition.

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

How about you are either playing solo queue or pug queue? So if you don't want to play with units against units you go tagless? Then the problem becomes helping that population.

You're forgetting the "Cool" factor of having a unit tag: even if you're only a one man unit, there is a sort of prestige attached to having a (any) unit tag.

I didn't make my 1-man for that reason, but I felt it (just a little bit) when I saw that tag next to my name. I said to myself: "Ah, yeah! That looks cool! I'm all official now!"

I believe many 1-man units were created before the split for this reason.

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

Admittedly CW itself as a game mode is one that hugely rewards teamwork so playing as someone who is absolutely against playing as a team (solo) in a team focused mode is going to struggle even in a solo only queue.

It's not so much that PUGs (casuals/solo, whatever) don't want to use teamwork, it's that they don't have prepared organization, planning and the ability to coordinate on the ground.

The psychology of going solo is such that you try to prepare for everything and that leads to being the generalist.

In any particular situation the generalist will lose to the specialist. Only in the case that the specialist is pitted against the generalist in a number of various situations (which his specialty does not prepare him for) will the specialist lose to the generalist.

Units (especially large units) have the advantage of coordinating their specialties in advance, thus making them much more effective than a group of generalists, even when those generalists want and do their best to play as a team.

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 22 April 2016 - 07:14 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 22 April 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

The reason the split was implemented to begin with, as I understand it, is to separate premades from casuals.

Maybe, but that's not what it really did. It kinda split casuals between the unit and the solo queue.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Ghogiel, on 22 April 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

Maybe, but that's not what it really did. It kinda split casuals between the unit and the solo queue.

Because it split the queues along unit affiliation lines, whereas it should split them along group participation lines.

[MischiefSC]

The only thing it would do for premade units is have less total drops by complicating unit pugs trying to form teams to play with them. We already use LFG and faction TS - remember though you can't premade for CW with anyone not in your faction. So I can't pull a Marik from LFG to fill a group to play on the Clan border.

There is no planning and coordination premades use that pugs can't. The units who build sync drop decks could be counted on one hand. Don't bring terribad builds. That's it.

There's no special pre-arranged strategies either. We're not plugged into a hive mind.

It's all really simple - the real difference? A unit player, when the DC says "PUSH" will push. If he gets shot he keeps pushing - he doesn't stop, block everyone behind him or break the line to stymie his whole teams fire. He pushes, he takes shots and gives in return. When told "Focus Charlie" he shift to shoot Charlie, even if he's already shooting Bravo. When told "Stay in cover, don't trade and don't get seen" he doesn't jeep poking.

There are some great pug players who plug into units they drop with, follow the call and are solid additions to any team you play on. I remember when I was doing the mech bay tour I dropped for a while with AWOL. Great guys, great team. In one match we picked up a tagless solo named INOK. Guy was awesome. Solid teammate. Wrecked face, held the line, pushed with the push, the guy was a great team player. We look led for that guy to group up with every time we could.

Tags don't make the difference - the desire and willingness to put the teams success over your own does. Being a good team player and wanting to play as a team instead of being forced to play as a team. All being in a unit does is indicate a general willingness.

Being tagless and only wanting to play in the solo queue indicates an unwillingness to play with or against teams. How many members are in your unit doesn't matter, how willing and active you are communicating and coordinating with your team of q2 on every drop does.

It's up to the individual to put that effort forward. The unit you drop with isn't required to force you to group with them. They already put the effort into making a group. You want to pug you need to put the effort into integrating with the existing team.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

im in 1 man unit mostly because units are just plain disorganized and too constrictive.

im all for small groups of friendly individuals but you have to at least stay on contract/faction. leaving your whole unit in limbo is just BS and a unit of mercs should be able to take several contracts to open their field of play.

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 22 April 2016 - 10:06 PM.

[LordNothing]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 22 April 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

If the split is according to being in a group or not (as opposed to in a unit or not) then solo players can still opt in to the Group Queue.

We have a tool for that: LFG.

Examples:

• Two casuals form a group = opt in to Group Queue.
  
• Unit has 11 players, wants 1 more for filler and grabs a solo from the LFG = opt in to Group Queue.

LFG is opt in to Group Queue.



We just need a tick box to "Auto-join LFG" and then give notice to groups when players are available.

Additionally, an LFM (Looking For More) parallel to LFG, where players can see what groups are running and need players, would be an excellent and useful tool.

Again, access.

lfg certainly needs some work. i think another huge problem is a lack of integration between all the systems that let players manage their groups. it would be nice if you could invite someone by clicking on their name in faction chat and then add to group, instead of having to search for them and friend them before you can add it to your group. maybe there should be an allied chat that includes all factions that can fight on the same fronts. players in lfg need to be easier to add to your group. i can sit in lfg all day and not get a group invite.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Kinda surprised that a Soloist (whether or not they have Tags) would take part in Invasion drops, especially since they kinda made Scouting drops for small units and solo's in mind. If your Solo, unaffiliated and go into invasion mode your most likely not going to be picked up because you cant launch a group of 11 to pick up 1 (unless that was changed) and even if they could most likely they have checked TS for people who are LFG before they que up. "I wanna do a Community thing without having to choose sides." is what it seems like to me what is wanted, in a game that has always been about picking a side (Yup even before Clan mechs came along, and Clan players made Merc units with Clan names and affiliations [and how I stole a March on Clan Blood Spirit by registering Clan Black Sheep with CBS Tags] and Inner Sphere insignia).

And allowing trail mechs to fill out a drop deck should be halted, but allow mixed dropped decks with a 3 to 1 ratio (IS Side 3 IS Mechs 1 Clan, Clan 3 clan Mechs 1 IS[tho to be honest I think to keep with Lore that Clan players should have 50/50 option since Clans had mechs that the IS thought were extinct (or hidden from knowledge like ComGuard BattleMasters) but Balance over Lore]) which would then allow the IS to have the Higher Number of Combatants (like in Lore) vs a More Skilled (yes I know they can buy clan packs,but lets compare 2 F2P players here) slightly better equipped Clans. While the IS player can buy mechs faster than the clan player can buy clan mechs, as well as get mechs mastered faster, the Clan player gets at least double the number of drops to bring a drop deck into being let alone mastered. And even if they both had 25000MC the Clanner cant buy a Mastery bundle in in-game shop so the leaning towards more IS players vs Clan players number-wise exists already. And by the time even the IS player gets 4 Mechs for a drop deck they have realized that a fully coordinated group works better more often than a coordinated PUG/Partial group so it makes sense to join a unit.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

The only thing it would do for premade units is have less total drops by complicating unit pugs trying to form teams to play with them. We already use LFG and faction TS - remember though you can't premade for CW with anyone not in your faction. So I can't pull a Marik from LFG to fill a group to play on the Clan border.

The LFG is in dire need of streamlining and more flexibility, that's a definite problem contributing to the difficulty in creating teams.

Perhaps you should be able to pull players from other "aligned" factions for premades. Just give them a slight/moderate LP penalty or something.

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

There is no planning and coordination premades use that pugs can't. The units who build sync drop decks could be counted on one hand. Don't bring terribad builds. That's it.

There's no special pre-arranged strategies either. We're not plugged into a hive mind.

This is only partly true. Unit (especially larger units) always have the advantage of familiarity with members and clear understanding of their role in the team.

PUGs just don't. Because of that, PUGs have to plan that their teammates will be total derps and have no expectation to rely on teamwork.

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

It's all really simple - the real difference? A unit player, when the DC says "PUSH" will push. If he gets shot he keeps pushing - he doesn't stop, block everyone behind him or break the line to stymie his whole teams fire. He pushes, he takes shots and gives in return. When told "Focus Charlie" he shift to shoot Charlie, even if he's already shooting Bravo. When told "Stay in cover, don't trade and don't get seen" he doesn't jeep poking.

All true, but that is exactly why the Queue was split to begin with.

Players that want to commit time and energy to a team (note: that is not that same as teamwork minded players) gravitate toward joining units.

Players that do not want or cannot commit time and energy to a team (note: that is not the same as players that don't like teamwork) will prefer to remain solo.

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

There are some great pug players who plug into units they drop with, follow the call and are solid additions to any team you play on. I remember when I was doing the mech bay tour I dropped for a while with AWOL. Great guys, great team. In one match we picked up a tagless solo named INOK. Guy was awesome. Solid teammate. Wrecked face, held the line, pushed with the push, the guy was a great team player. We look led for that guy to group up with every time we could.

Outliers and exceptions always exist.

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

Tags don't make the difference - the desire and willingness to put the teams success over your own does. Being a good team player and wanting to play as a team instead of being forced to play as a team. All being in a unit does is indicate a general willingness.

True.

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

Being tagless and only wanting to play in the solo queue indicates an unwillingness to play with or against teams. How many members are in your unit doesn't matter, how willing and active you are communicating and coordinating with your team of q2 on every drop does.

False.

Being tagless indicates an unwillingness to join a unit and nothing more.

Many unit "tagged" players are actually just solo players with a 1-man unit.

MischiefSC, on 22 April 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

It's up to the individual to put that effort forward. The unit you drop with isn't required to force you to group with them. They already put the effort into making a group. You want to pug you need to put the effort into integrating with the existing team.

The onus is indeed on the individual.

But as a player you can rely on teams (not units) to behave in a particular way: teamwork minded. you cannot rely on PUGs to behave this way, even when you personally do or want to behave that way.

[Kuritaclan]

LordNothing, on 22 April 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

problem is that there is a middle ground where people are fairly competitive (not casual) in fw but arent willing to commit to a unit. i would say my fw game is far above casual level play. so thats why i kind of want solos to be able to opt in for unit queue games. after all units still need a few singles to fill in all the gaps.

This.

I don't wanna bash solos and new players and those T5 to T2s that wanna play FW but lack skill. At least if they are in a groupe they somewhat get something going. But other than that i appriciate real competion. And to be the 5th wheel of a good group against another group.

If only the seals wouldn't make 1 man units, but they can't be blamed if they don't get matches as freelancers.

[Davegt27]

I am a 1 Man unit I have been a 1 man unit since the start of CW

It was a hard choice to go solo loyalist

The loyalist route was somewhat a known and due to a lack of information I did not go Merc or
Freelancer

From before the start of CW we wanted to help out teams that needed help
So the intention was to never be fielded as a 12man pug group

The que should and must be divided

One side 8 man the other 4 or no more than 4 solo players

To fill up a twelve man drop the game maker would have 3 areas to pull from

12man 8 man and 4 man

When you sign up you have two choices 8 and 12 on one side and 4 man on the other

This is to allow for more versatility

The theory is a player from a multiplayer unit will know what they are doing and they could join
The 8 or 12 man bucket but solos would stay in the 4 man bucket

So let’s say for that night you only had enough of your unit to make a 6 man you would still pull
From the 8 or 12 man bucket

True solo players are stuck with the 4 man bucket

Not very well written but I hope you get the idea

Edited by Davegt27, 24 April 2016 - 05:06 PM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Kuritaclan, on 24 April 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

This.

I don't wanna bash solos and new players and those T5 to T2s that wanna play FW but lack skill. At least if they are in a groupe they somewhat get something going. But other than that i appriciate real competion. And to be the 5th wheel of a good group against another group.

If only the seals wouldn't make 1 man units, but they can't be blamed if they don't get matches as freelancers.

This is a good description of why the "Unit/Solo" split is wrong.

[Wing 0]

The splitting of the queue's didn't work as intended. awhile back, it was stated that splitting the queue's wouldn't go well. they put it in there to point why it wont work in action and this is the result. here are some reasons

1. Faction play is a totally different ball game. there is no PSR. Even Russ's video preview stated these following words "No Match Maker, No Mercy". Even if PSR did somehow work, it wouldn't work well to an extent.

2. Too many pools for solo players. Unit queue is LESS on queue pools than what Solo's have.

3. Player Base. One of the big issues that had been known for awhile, Is the player base. Most of the time you only see about an average of low amounts of players playing even though there are 600k accounts created 600k.... Where are those other players.. that number would've fixed it but all those missing accounts..... very fishy thinking a lot of red flags or so... The point is that, because we do have a low player base to that, the solo queue is technically giving players at least 1 main faction play game every 3 hours or so. Nothing you can do since over 2/3 of players are mostly in units.

Nothing personal but most people avoid faction play mainly because the "FLOW" that the mode has. For game designers, FLOW is all about how frustrating the level of the game will be. think of a scale 1 - 10, if its lower than 4 for a player, it wont become frustrating. If that player's flow is past 4, it can be frustrating. does faction play represent that kind of scale for "FLOW"? Yes it does. Any scale can point it out. If you are going to do solo queue, by all means. However; Russ made those mechanics as a way to get you guys to join a unit.

Edited by Wing 0, 24 April 2016 - 05:47 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I'd like to see units with total membership of 4 or lower join the solo queue or group queue, group leader's choice. This lets small units like my own act as advisors to solo groups, or as supplements to other units.

Note, this has nothing to do with group size, but only unit size.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Wing 0, on 24 April 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

Nothing personal but most people avoid faction play mainly because the "FLOW" that the mode has. For game designers, FLOW is all about how frustrating the level of the game will be. think of a scale 1 - 10, if its lower than 4 for a player, it wont become frustrating. If that player's flow is past 4, it can be frustrating. does faction play represent that kind of scale for "FLOW"? Yes it does. Any scale can point it out. If you are going to do solo queue, by all means. However; Russ made those mechanics as a way to get you guys to join a unit.

If he actually wants those mechanics in the game for the reason you claim, then there is a significant lack of understanding about how to increase the player-base.

People that want to be in those units will be no matter what.

A part of the people that don't want to be can probably be coerced, but a significant part (if not most) will not join and will just find another game that is more inclusive.

You want more player? The game needs to be more inclusive.

[Starbomber109]

Just like quick play does. In quick play, if you're part of a group you will NEVER, run into un-grouped players. I think think this is the best answer.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Starbomber109, on 24 April 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

Just like quick play does. In quick play, if you're part of a group you will NEVER, run into un-grouped players. I think think this is the best answer.

^This.

The flip side of that is that when you're solo (un-grouped) you never run into grouped players!

So simple and still allows PUGs to play with units, so long as they are grouped (even 2-mans)!!!