94 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

[meteorol]

They should have never hyped CW or the games planned features the way they did.

When i first read about MWO, and saw all the things they had dreamed up for it, i sent my buddy a link with the article and told him "this is going to fail so hard, they will never achieve this". That was literally my first thought when i heard about MWO, before even playing it for a single second.

Here i am, still playing MWO, not being disappointed. I don't feel lied to, i'm not "on an island". I was never delusional enough to think PGI could ever deliver something even close to what they were planning. But others were, and they are vocal. PGI could have avoided a lot of criticism if they didn't anounce stuff that very obviously exceeded their capabilities.

[DaZur]

Here's the sad reality.... MWO could have done well as a pure eStort entity. Conversely, MWO could have done well as an action based game with strong RPG pillars.

Like anything in life, when you try to compromise and please both crowds, the end product tends to be watered down and leaves both entities wanting more.

MWO is held back from achieving any amount of success because PGI could not put their foot down, draw the line in the sand and declare exactly what MWO is/was suppose to be...

Now we're saddled with an MWO that has an identity crisis that will leave either side of the isle wanting more.

[Zordicron]

Heh, I thought some of these types of threads would take a time off for a bit when we got CW 3. Forums usually go into dissection mode when we get new content. Anyway...

I won't go into the engine stuff, suffice to say it has been a hinderance for net play, but was unavoidable. They currently have a chance to rectify that whole situation and I hope Russ doesn't blow it.

HIRE A NET CODE SPECIALIST, FIX HSR IN BETA. UPGRADE SERVERS IF NEED BE. Seriously, the amount of time wasted on spreadsheet warrior trying to balance broken hit detection still astounds me.

As for mechanics, well, since open beta I have been behind the idea of changing how the hardpoints work.
http://mwomercs.com/...zed-hardpoints/

It actually isn't too late to do that yet, but IMO Paul won't have it, and with the rescale being completed shortly( I hope) the idea of revisiting old assets, again, for fundamental changes prolly wouldn't sit well with Russ.

As for game direction? Well, Esports, IMO, is about as anti battle tech as it gets. But I could see a solaris option for that to make room for that crowd.

Buy out IGP sooner. I don;t even know if it was possible. But IMO the direction and attitude of the dev team did change when IGP went away.

NO 12 VS 12. Upgrade the servers instead, like was done with the regional stuff.

Put in game VOIP, in like beta. Instead of trying to keep players in the dark and creating the whole third party VOIP vs silent pugs issue we had from beta, just put it in, and fix the glaring issues of 8 mechs ganking one mech through game mechanics, right away. Instead we are here years later re inventing power draw to try to address it now.

IMO, most of the rest would have worked itself out satisfactory if we weren;t contending with the issues these things would have addressed.

[C E Dwyer]

I'd not inflate the hard points the custom system would be less open and easier to balance, I would not have set it in 3050.

People might scream you can't be without, the clans now, but I think a game set in 3025 just like HBS are trying to do and after the big gap since the last game, it would have still flown got the money, and support and been easier to do, and we wouldn't have this oxide/storm crow is op nonsense we have now.

I think an earlier simpler timeline would have been better, and over all this game, this time period, was to big an ask for a company that had virtually no experience in making games of any note, from the ground up.

Edited by Cathy, 24 April 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[Mystere]

Alistair Winter, on 23 April 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

This thread could quickly go to K-town, so let's set some ground rules:

• I'm looking for serious discussion. Please avoid clever, sardonic one-line replies to farm internet points.
  
• Please don't make this personal. Don't say "I would fire John Smith, head of marketing". I'm not so much interested in the individuals as the overall strategies. E.g. "I would do marketing like this."

With that out of the way, I was thinking about this today and I'm not really sure what I would do if I had a time machine and go back in time to, say, become major stockholder of PGI and insert myself as the president in 2011. What would I have done different?


There are many small things I would have done differently. Things that bug me, ghost heat, consumables, jump jets, etc. But would I have avoided Community Warfare and gone straight to Solaris? Would I have focused more on Community Warfare and focused less on something else? Would I have replaced huge mech packs with more micro-transactions?

Anyway, what would you have done differently, starting in 2011?

Personally, I think this would have been my approach.

Spoiler

• Abandon CW all together. Never promise CW. Never develop it. Battletech is too much of a niche game, and CW is such a huuuge project for such a small company.
  
• Make 2 different experiences for MWO. The first is Solaris PVP. Leaderboards, crazy customization, min-maxing, esports, all that. The second is single-player PVE campaigns with mission packs and DLC you can buy.

I think that's the biggest thing I would have done differently. Because I feel like a lot of people wanted CW because they felt that was closer to the Mechwarrior PVE experience, with objectives and planets to conquer and lore and faction vs faction. And a lot of people wanted CW because they wanted to create a unit and get famous and smash noobs and win the internet. And I feel like those groups would have been happier with single-player campaigns (ala the Battletech game) or Solaris, respectively.

Time travel is terrible. Don't. Ever. Do. It.

MWO could end up being the generic arena robot shooter. Thank Hades time travel is unavailable.

And if I can do it, I will <classified>.

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

... have even less faith in the butthurt forum QQ than I do in Paul's ability to balance stuff.

Amen to that!

Metus regem, on 23 April 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

I think you missed the point of "what if..."

"What If" analyses are ultimately pointless unless there is a profit to be gained from it.

Edited by Mystere, 24 April 2016 - 01:17 PM.

[Fiona Marshe]

Find a different publisher than IGP.

This was the biggest drag on the development and taking the game places the players didn't want. Since getting rid of them, PGI has been playing catchup on the original features promised to the Founders.

[kesmai]

Like others already said, I would have started in 3025 and would having added lore events like the 4th succesion war or any other 'big' story as 'seasons'-dlc, including mechs unit decals and a lot of fluff.
Solaris would be an add- on for the comp crowd.
4th succession war would have been the start of faction warfare (3 years of game/real time to develop).
One thing that is important for me would have been a (short) pve campaign to get familiar to the game.
I do not think the mechwarrior academy is a bad thing, but packing it into a pve campaign would be way more immersive for the player.

[LordNothing]

i think they were in such a rush to get something out and get people paying and as a result the underlying systems that make the game work were not very maintainable or expandable. a shaky foundation for a game that needed to be a solid money maker for about a decade. i have a hunch that their whole game is built on a few cobbled together scripts that nobody currently on their staff understands. i firmly believe that there is not one programmer on their staff. you see basic failures in logic in first releases of game modes that have to be hotfixed, frequent failures in event logic. even the fact that we dont have multiple drop decks, like its hard to vectorize an object and add a dropdown control to the gui code. these are computer science 101 problems.

[Karl Streiger]

First and foremost as already stated look on the whole BattleTech franchise, consider how you would include TESMP, iHeavy Lasers, Streak LRMs - but keep things playable only with 3025 Tech. The future stuff is just brainstorming and math - shouldn't cost much.

Maybe some may ask why 3025? Simple - Balance. 3025 Intro Tech is almost perfectly balanced by tonnage, with few exceptions. The next step translate the 2d6 values into a FPS system (only if i really want to have click and shoot systems. afaik a player poll in 2011 was 50:50 between both parties - Pinpoint or a probability system, where players would only indirectly been able to affect the firing solution)

Geometry and values should be merged. Bigger hit box > more armor - don't give a darn about tabletop armor, structur or even weapon values (heat/damage)

Translate movement - a 400 fusion on a 80t/100t is an asset in BT. But its non in a FPS..because the difference between 15 and 13m/s or 18 and 22.5m/s are not enough for >30t more in engine weight.

Don't use linear systems - ever.
Include the probability damage values of TT in the damage curve. (by no mean should two medium laser at 200-210m deal the same damage as a single Clan-ER-Large Laser.)

But most important - the heatsystem, its the most important system in BattleTech. Everything else is bull crap - but the heat system is fundamental.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 April 2016 - 03:51 AM.

[Raggedyman]

Alistair Winter, on 23 April 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

With that out of the way, I was thinking about this today and I'm not really sure what I would do if I had a time machine and go back in time to, say, become major stockholder of PGI and insert myself as the president in 2011. What would I have done different?

My big three
Had heat work a lot similar to how it did in the TT game.
Not because I'm a TT slave, but because so much of the other balancing works off of that system that if you remove it's gradual degradation affect then the rest of the balancing is screwed so you need more re-balancing. Obviously there would still be tweeks needed, especially without the points system to balance out the forces on each side, but it would have meant less overall work and leaping around in effectiveness. It would also have added to the "thinking mans shooter" claim.

Better lines of communication
Okay, so they aren't that bad as such. It's just that they aren't as good as they could have been. We're talking a solid C grade, when it could have been a B or even an A with more thought. I would also include "stop promising as much", as over promise and under deliver is a communications issue.

More flavour
Mechwarrior got big due to mechs and the setting, so only having one of those means it's 50% less cool and it could be. It doesn't have to be big things, but just more generalised setting and flavour info kicking around. Maybe people in your hanger to give it a sense of scale, or info on the planets to give you a reason to fight beyond points.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Oh Boy where to begin!

I would (In no order)

• Not commit suicide by telling people who funded the game, they aren't the target audience or they are on an island bro.
  
• Picked a game engine that was fully functional, not one that came without netcode and DX11 graphics pipelines that sucked out huge amounts of time.
  
• Not lied about getting CW 90 days after beta when i knew i hadn't even got past napkin stage.
  
• Not bothered with a quick play
  
• Instead of quickplay CW is the primary game mode, this mode features Assault, Conquest, Skirmish and later Domination, Scouting 4v4 with all maps and their variations - The giant IS battle should be the hook that keeps people playing.
  
• Not neglect the new player experience until it became too late.
  
• Complete a full featured Solaris module, stable creation, Cbill betting, 1v1,2v2,3v3, free for all. ( This is your esports module)
  
• Employ or get volunteer Game Masters, who lead each faction in CW this allows player drive alliances, betrayals and politics - Drama - Fun- Engagement
  
• Employ an actual UI designer who understands the concepts of UI design ( Simple, Sleek, minimize repetition unnecessary button clicks )
  
• Design an active radar/passive radar concept (ala MW4), including weight class metrics and ranges of detection.
  
• Create maps that are not moba style corridors, more maps in the style of Polar but each with it's own flavor of rolling hills, open expanses, cityscapes.
  
• Not employ a stalker as a community manager.
  
• Balance the game without the band aid system, no ghost heat, no gauss charge up, actual checks and balances.
  
• Part of 13 is the introduction of an actual heat scale system.
  
• Allow Unit leader and appropriate ranks, to withdraw unit cbills and distribute to team - Seriously it just sits there for nothing.
  
• For CW implement a salvage system (bonus cbills for mech disablement rather than destruction) Re-implement re-arm and repair.
  
• Implement a pilot skill system revolving around specializations (not lore friendly sorry!) people that want to scout invest skills into scouting - Quicker radar locks/target Info/Capping/ Ability to remain undetected at range etc etc.
  
• Introduce sized hard points to aid balancing.
  
• HIRE AN ACTUAL QA TEAM, the office cat does not qualify.

Theres more...but my brains gone with all the things i would do....

Edited by Oderint dum Metuant, 25 April 2016 - 04:42 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

I wouldn't have touched Clans at all until the base game was finished and polished.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Not sail away from their island

[kesmai]

According to pgi, the islanders aren't the devs. Twisted truth...

[Lily from animove]

nothing because IGP was in charge to tell you what to do.


SO basically whatever PGI did after becoming onwner of the game was a rather good thing. Sure some CW/FW and balance decisions aren't the best ones, but generally the devs are doing quite a fine job.

I still would have focused earlier on a proper chat.

Edited by Lily from animove, 25 April 2016 - 06:09 AM.

[TKSax]

My 2 things are real Simple,

1. Communicate better with your player base, set realist expectations, at your launch party do not show and describe a feature you have not even started working on (Faction Warfare) and tell people it will be out 90 days after the launch party.

2. The only Gameplay change I would have made, would have been to have Private Matches available from the get go. This would have made running player run leagues and events so much easier.

[PyckenZot]

There's so many things that could've gone differently, but that's all in the past. Besides from starting a new rage/tear fest I really don't see the point to this thread. It's not as if someone will wipe the board and redevelop the lot.

Look at it the other way round. Many of us have been around for 4+ years. No sane person would spend all that time playing something against their will. So PGI must've done plenty right to keep us here, don't you think?

[pwnface]

• Implement a CW game mode with a real economy and logistics.
  
• Add melee combat.
  
• Make sure BASIC bugs which should have been ironed out in BETA don't make it to production. (We still have chat bugs... Counterstrike had less buggy chat and that game preceded MWO by more than 10 years)
  
• Don't use playerbase as a QA team.
  
• Communicate with playerbase through the game forums rather than twitter.
  
• Put someone in charge of game design that has a real vision of what the game should be.
  
• Put someone in charge of gameplay balance who actually knows how to play the game. Paul we all saw and judged your K2 build.
  
• Immediately fire community managers who stalk customers social media to ban players for saying things outside of MWO public communications.

The more things I try to add to this list the more I find myself pointing fingers at an incompetent development team and even more incompetent management.


edit:
Not nickel and dime customers for paint schemes and camo patterns. Camo patterns should have the option for global unlock rather than a chassis only unlock which is completely useless.

Edited by pwnface, 25 April 2016 - 10:07 AM.

[Sir Wulfrick]

1. I'd have used Unreal engine tech right from day 1. I can understand the financial reasons why PGI went with the Crye engine, but that wasn't good long-term decision making. Quite apart from being better suited to Mechwarrior type environments, the UT engine would have simplified so many areas of game development going forwards.

2. MWO came out of closed beta about a year too early. "1.0" was not, by any reasonable standards, what would normally be considered a release product. Whoever decided to go down the 'minimum viable product' path should have been fired long ago.

3. All the IS weapons & mechs should have received multiple parity passes long before PGI even put pen to paper considering introduction of the Clans. Had all the IS tech and chassis been at parity at the time, introduction of Clanner mechs & weapons would have been substantially easier and would have also avoided wasting as much time as has been wasted on subsequent "balance" problems. I think by now we'd have been in a much better position as opposed to the 'it kind of, sort of works' position that we currently have.

4. Communication. To be blunt I continue to be disgusted that the only regular communication channel with the player base that never gets used is this one - the official game forum. No harm in communicating via Twitter & all the other social networking channels, but they should be firmly secondary to the official game site. Arguments such as forum use taking up too much time are frankly not credible.

5. More emphasis should have been placed on actual content creation (developing new maps & new game modes) as opposed to creating horrendously over-priced mech pack after mech pack. Frankly the constant flow of mech packs felt like a 'bread & circuses' obvious ploy to distract the player base from the chronic lack of actual game content. MWO isn't and shouldn't be pokemon.