247 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

Personally I am seeing if they are "SO" OP then why are comp teams NOT using a lance of them "Drop Rules Not With Standing" to wreck face.

Simply because no league currently allows for it, that is the only reason.

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

This part tells me that the OXiDE is VERY STRONG in drop one, but not so in the later drops, based on that fact you have to ask yourself why is that?

Its not about them being OP even when assaults, its about how they are one of the goto lights in the lower end and sometimes even in the heavier end (if you are forced to run a light).

[pwnface]

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

Personally I am seeing if they are "SO" OP then why are comp teams NOT using a lance of them "Drop Rules Not With Standing" to wreck face. We all know that a lance of Oxides would absolutely destroy a team in Solo or Group Queue "IF you could get 4" But yet you do not see this.

I've seen SJR terrorize the public queue several times by running mass oxides and various other brawlers. Teams DO do this.(hehe I said doodoo)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pwnface, on 25 April 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

I've seen SJR terrorize the public queue several times by running mass oxides and various other brawlers.

We certainly aren't the only ones either, I've seen it done by several.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 April 2016 - 04:45 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Simply because no league currently allows for it, that is the only reason.


Its not about them being OP even when assaults, its about how they are one of the goto lights in the lower end and sometimes even in the heavier end (if you are forced to run a light).

Quote

Restrictions: [color=#8E8E8E]1 per chassis (IS or Clan), 1 duplicate allowed (IS or Clan). You may not duplicate a Clan mech and an IS mech in the same deck - 1 duplicate allowed in total [/color]

I assume your talking about that.

I agree they are one of the go to lights, no argument. But if you have a dedicated light killer, how long would they last. Assuming of course the light attacks from the rear. Lets face it a light attacking from the front is just asking to get creamed. 1 Alpha from a crow would put a hurting on an OXIDE 2 will all but put it out of commission.

Having NOT looked at the Season 7 video's yet, in drop 3 or 4 have the oxides made as STRONG a showing as they did in drop 1? I do not know truly hence the reason i am asking.

pwnface, on 25 April 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

I've seen SJR terrorize the public queue several times by running mass oxides and various other brawlers. Teams DO do this.(hehe I said doodoo)

Guilty as charged

The good news is the solo queue is mostly protected from that, the group queue however is a different beast entirely.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 25 April 2016 - 04:46 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

1 Alpha from a crow would put a hurting on an OXIDE 2 will all but put it out of commission.

Easier said than done, you have a team for a reason.

[Darian DelFord]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

Easier said than done, you have a team for a reason.

But that is my point. Granted every match is different however "most" lights will attack from the rear or flank (rule 101). Have a light killer ready just hanging in the back. Yes I know streaks are not the best on mechs 50+ tons. However they can quickly negate any lights that harass the big guys and still stay behind the big guns for ToA's.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

Have a light killer ready just hanging in the back.

Again, it is easier said than done, because the wolf pack is often able to easily single you out if you are hanging back to deal with them, and no mech can solo 4 lights.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 April 2016 - 05:09 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

DrxAbstract, on 25 April 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

Facts:

Its Alpha is average for a combat Light and even less accurate. Fact
It has less or equal survivability than an ACH, FS9, Adder, Kitfox, Spider, Myst Lynx and Locust. Fact.
Its DPS is 18.44% higher than an ACH with 6 Spl and 19.8% higher than an FS9-A, but 40% lower than an Atlas-S with 4xSRM6, 1 AC20. Fact.

Opinion:
Arguing the Oxide does more DPS/DPA than largely unused variants/builds of Mechs with the goal of reducing its effectiveness is invalid.
Arguing largely unused variants/builds of Mechs do less DPS/DPA than popular builds/variants with the goal of having their effectiveness increased is valid.

The only two valid concerns with the Oxide are its rate of fire and its minimal heat production. Aside from those two things, everything else is pure conjecture; opinions and anecdotes do not qualify as a foundation for legitimate discussion.

Remove the Missile Heat Gen quirk altogether, decrease the Cooldown Quirk from 15% to 10%. Done.

If you want it to be as powerful as other Lights, then bring those Lights up to its level or drag it, and every other Mech: Mediums, Heavies and Assaults, down to the same level as the underperformers. In reality, relatively low Alpha Damage Lights with DPS approaching or matching that of Assault Mechs with considerations toward ranges, hardpoints, etc. is very much a valid and necessary component to ensuring true balance among the weight classes. Otherwise there's absolutely no point in playing them... which is a very real problem in MWO right now.

You do the exact same thing that you accuse everyone else of doing. The facts that you provided show that the Oxide can deal significantly more damage than the other "best" Lights which many players also consider OP. The rest of the Lights are even further behind.

Then you express your opinion that Lights apparently need to do as much damage as other classes o9f Mechs. I disagree with that. They have smaller hit boxes, agility and speed on their side. (My opinion) They should not be able to also match some Mediums and Heavies in damage dealt.

You also give your opinion that only minor changes need to be made or that all other Mechs need to have their damage reduced to keep the Oxide on par damage wise. (My opinion) The problem is they are a little above par already.

(My opinion) Remove the quirks. (But then I think the quirk system is a travesty.)

[Dino Might]

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

I will agree that every "team" has their own way of doing things, while some may not strip armor, some do. Can I prove it with a pic or a video no, other than leg armor turning red after 1 alpha. I understand "in comp" that rear armor is not a factor and I get it. But it does happen, in solo queue, group queue, and community warfare or what ever the hell they are calling it now.

Ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you I absolutely SUCK in a heavy or an assault. Lights (Jenners) are just my strength. Oxides are strong in MRBC drop 1, this has been covered as well as the reason why they are strong by me. Personally I am seeing if they are "SO" OP then why are comp teams NOT using a lance of them "Drop Rules Not With Standing" to wreck face. We all know that a lance of Oxides would absolutely destroy a team in Solo or Group Queue "IF you could get 4" But yet you do not see this.

This part tells me that the OXiDE is VERY STRONG in drop one, but not so in the later drops, based on that fact you have to ask yourself why is that? Once again, just my own opinion and why I defend against the OP aspect BASED on MRBC. Nothing against you Kalasa I actually respect your knowledge and skill, but this is how I see it and the reason I counterpoint, if that makes any sense



Oh I am sure the tweets did that long before this post.

Case in Point

Scout mode would be even better if it were lights only. All the light on light duels...imagine the carnage!

There's nothing I fear in my Locust like another Locust...or an Oxide, because, you know, they are almost as good as Locusts.
"Oxides aren't OP, Locusts are OP!" - every person in MWO ever

^ that's an actual quote, and the ultimate evidence for this thread

/debate

[Y E O N N E]

Dino Might, on 25 April 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

Scout mode would be even better if it were lights only. All the light on light duels...imagine the carnage!

There's nothing I fear in my Locust like another Locust...or an Oxide, because, you know, they are almost as good as Locusts.
"Oxides aren't OP, Locusts are OP!" - every person in MWO ever

^ that's an actual quote, and the ultimate evidence for this thread

/debate

Other Locusts don't scare me. Only Oxides scare me.

Or Streak Adders, those cheating bast*rds.

[Dino Might]

Also, those wanting to use MRBC usage #s fail to remember that MRBC has requirements on mech class. Given a choice, very few people play lights. So the usage statistics show that not only would the Oxide be considered not OP, but it and most other lights are probably underpowered, again, just from usage statistics.

Be careful what you use as your rationale, because fair application of it tends to hamper the "lights OP plz nerf" crowd.

[Darian DelFord]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 April 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

Again, it is easier said than done, because the wolf pack is often able to easily single you out if you are hanging back to deal with them, and no mech can solo 4 lights.

I agree no mech even a light hunter can solo 4 of them. However if they have 4 mechs in the backfield then your team should be pushing the advantage and hope to hell the poor sap can hold them off a little longer to gain the upper hand.

Dino Might, on 25 April 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

Scout mode would be even better if it were lights only. All the light on light duels...imagine the carnage!

There's nothing I fear in my Locust like another Locust...or an Oxide, because, you know, they are almost as good as Locusts.
"Oxides aren't OP, Locusts are OP!" - every person in MWO ever

^ that's an actual quote, and the ultimate evidence for this thread

/debate

LOL Dino

I have to admit even I cringe when I start to take on a Locust 3M or 1E. Dem dang legs just seem invisible.

[Y E O N N E]

Darian DelFord, on 25 April 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

I have to admit even I cringe when I start to take on a Locust 3M or 1E. Dem dang legs just seem invisible.

Lolcust is even more of a walking CT than the Jenner, man. Don't even bother with legs.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 April 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Lolcust is even more of a walking CT than the Jenner, man. Don't even bother with legs.

Yeah, but the oxide not only is better hit boxes than the lolcust...but it is also probably 3-4 times higher DPS.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 25 April 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

Yeah, but the oxide not only is better hit boxes than the lolcust...but it is also probably 3-4 times higher DPS.

Well, he seemed to be implying Locust is somewhat difficult to take down since the legs get all quantum mechanical. I was just saying there's no point to going for legs on the Locust since the CT is so easy to hit.

[Dino Might]

Gyrok, on 25 April 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

Yeah, but the oxide not only is better hit boxes than the lolcust...but it is also probably 3-4 times higher DPS.

LCT-1E 6x small pulse is 1.45 * 6 = 8.85 DPS
Oxide 4x SRM 4 is 2.87 * 4 = 11.48 DPS / 0.85 (cooldown quirk) = 13.5 DPS

So, with quirks, the Oxide gets roughly 1.6 times the DPS of the LCT-1E, and it's spread damage rather than pinpoint (also requires lead time, not hitscan). So, tell me how this is 3-4 times higher DPS and so much more OP...

Also, I haven't played Jenners in a while, but better hit boxes? I know they changed them recently, but dang, those things have worse shield arms than a Locust, legs get hit easier, and the torso is easier to shoot, but maybe spreads more across the 3 torsos? I much prefer shooting at a Jenner to a Locust (at least when both of them know what they are doing).

ETA: I see now you necro'd every Oxide post in existence. Hopefully you can get over your fear of this mech. Question - did you ever jump in on the Arctic Cheetah threads when it was released? I don't remember seeing you talk about those much (I may be forgetting), but I remember seeing ACH 10x more than I see Oxides, and they were certainly more of an issue then than the Oxide is now. But I think the issue really is that the Oxide is IS, so now I understand the problem.

Edited by Dino Might, 25 April 2016 - 06:30 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Dino Might, on 25 April 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

LCT-1E 6x small pulse is 1.45 * 6 = 8.85 DPS
Oxide 4x SRM 4 is 2.87 * 4 = 11.48 DPS / 0.85 (cooldown quirk) = 13.5 DPS

So, with quirks, the Oxide gets roughly 1.6 times the DPS of the LCT-1E, and it's spread damage rather than pinpoint (also requires lead time, not hitscan). So, tell me how this is 3-4 times higher DPS and so much more OP...

Also, I haven't played Jenners in a while, but better hit boxes? I know they changed them recently, but dang, those things have worse shield arms than a Locust, legs get hit easier, and the torso is easier to shoot, but maybe spreads more across the 3 torsos? I much prefer shooting at a Jenner to a Locust (at least when both of them know what they are doing).

The SRMs spread is not a concern at the knife-fighting ranges you need to be in to use SPL and, crazy time, you can actually still spread the SPL shot around. The Oxide is going to jam up into your face and let it rip.

And yes, the Jenner does spread across three hit-boxes a lot better than it used to. The weak point is the SRM hump on top, which is always CT, but at Locust-height you can't really shoot that unless you have an altitude advantage.

I love my Locusts, but when the pilots are even? Oxide beats any brawler Locust, hands-down. It's not even close.

Also, the LCT-3M is the better SPL 'Mech in a brawl, IMO. Being able to take that follow-up shot more quickly matters.

Personally, I don't think the Oxide is really OP. I just think my Locusts got hit with a nerf-bat this recent patch and they really didn't deserve that.

[Darian DelFord]

Dino Might, on 25 April 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

ETA: I see now you necro'd every Oxide post in existence. Hopefully you can get over your fear of this mech. Question - did you ever jump in on the Arctic Cheetah threads when it was released? I don't remember seeing you talk about those much (I may be forgetting), but I remember seeing ACH 10x more than I see Oxides, and they were certainly more of an issue then than the Oxide is now. But I think the issue really is that the Oxide is IS, so now I understand the problem.

ROTFFLMGDAO

He sure as heck fire did did'nt he. Guess he could not stand the common sense that was actually starting to show itself through calm discussion and mostly facts.

Character counts.......... ??

Edited by Darian DelFord, 25 April 2016 - 06:40 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Rampage, on 25 April 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

You do the exact same thing that you accuse everyone else of doing. The facts that you provided show that the Oxide can deal significantly more damage than the other "best" Lights which many players also consider OP. The rest of the Lights are even further behind.

Then you express your opinion that Lights apparently need to do as much damage as other classes o9f Mechs. I disagree with that. They have smaller hit boxes, agility and speed on their side. (My opinion) They should not be able to also match some Mediums and Heavies in damage dealt.

You also give your opinion that only minor changes need to be made or that all other Mechs need to have their damage reduced to keep the Oxide on par damage wise. (My opinion) The problem is they are a little above par already.

(My opinion) Remove the quirks. (But then I think the quirk system is a travesty.)

No. What I did was give facts (As a foundation for my argument) and then provide conclusions based upon the facts. What most others are doing (The focus of my criticism) was state an opinion as a fact then make conclusions based upon those opinions. There is a difference, it matters, and that is my point.

MRBC results are irrelevant and do not represent actual conditions within MWO - This is a fact, yet many are basing their conclusions upon it anyway. Nobody answered the two critical questions I posited earlier... Because if they had they might have realized this themselves.

[Jikil]

DrxAbstract, on 25 April 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

MRBC results are irrelevant and do not represent actual conditions within MWO - This is a fact, yet many are basing their conclusions upon it anyway. Nobody answered the two critical questions I posited earlier... Because if they had they might have realized this themselves.

MRBC is the most controlled environment we can get. Not only are drop decks restricted but in many cases your seeing some of the best pilots the game has to offer.

All the matches have scorecards to show us what mechs got used for what drops. Also many many teams have videos posted so you can see just how certain mechs play out.

The Oxide got its lion share in the drops and many teams opted to use their only duplicate on the oxide. That means that in Drop 1 the Oxide is more valuable than any other light or medium mech.

Are you guys just so blinded by your love for the oxide jenner that you can't see whats wrong with it?

At some point your going to have realize that yes the oxide is the best light and with good reason. Quirks have always controlled the flow of the meta. The Oxide got blessed hard by PGI with their quirks. I don't know if it was so IS could have a match to the Jenner IIC or what.

The quirks need to be changed. Start with the missile heat gen and missile cooldown. If you remove the Heat gen and cut down the cooldown I bet you'll see the oxide in a better balanced state.