247 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Darian DelFord, on 26 April 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

Is there a difference between Clan and IS missile accuracy? Other than spread quirks I thought they were treated the exact same?

Clan missiles do in fact have worse spread, and it is felt on these mechs where you don't have artemis. The Oxide also technically has tighter hardpoint groupings.

Darian DelFord, on 26 April 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

Most common perhaps but not the power houses they are in drop 1., This has been covered in previous posts by both myself and Kalasa

He is arguing more so from a inner class balance, not so much balance between the classes. A lot of maps do support the push currently which is why it is used quite a bit outside of drop 1.

[DrxAbstract]

pwnface, on 26 April 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

This argument is fallacious at it's core.

LOL. Umm... Clarify?

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We've already established whether a mech is good or not is opinion.

Sure.

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We've already established that you can't factually prove an opinion.

Eh? Yes you can... What -I- was trying to establish is you cant state opinions as ultimate truths.

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Based on these statements and your logic, balance changes can never be justified since they can't be proven with fact.

I... don't think you're quite getting it. It's possible to prove any number of things, when you actually put in the effort and do it properly. It's a proven fact the Oxide has a very high rate of fire relative to other Striker/Brawler oriented Lights. It's also a proven fact it has very little relative Heat Generation, due both to the nature of its weapons and their correspondent Heat Gen quirk. Both proven facts, both can be adjusted for the sake of balance.

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My assertion is that overwhelming popular opinion by competitive players is plenty of justification for potential balance changes (whether we are talking about the oxide or not). You don't need facts to justify changes since relative mech strength is by it's very nature based on opinions and cant not be proven as fact (you said this yourself). Personally, I don't really care if the Oxide stays the same or gets nerfed. I just can't help but point out your weak logic.

While my assertion is that competitive player opinions (Combined with PGI incompetence, of course) have a track record of being associated with patches invalidating Mechs/Builds unnecessarily while simultaneously overcompensating others, making changes that should not have happened one way or another... So I apologize for not putting much stock in Comp Player Opinion regarding this subject. And no, I did not say it's impossible to to prove Mech strengths, be it at all, or relative to other Mechs. I said it's impossible to determine whether the Oxide currently is or is not "The Best" Light. Too many variables.

My logic is perfectly fine, thank you very much. Try actually addressing it next time.

[The Mech behind you]

pwnface, on 26 April 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

This is pretty important. There are intangibles when you compare mechs. Measuring mechs ONLY by their relative burst DPS is foolish. Hitboxes, sustained DPS, damage spread, availability of jump jets, armor/structure bonuses, agility quirks all tie in to a mechs overall strength. It's impossible to measure hitboxes or mobility versus DPS, so players need make conclusions about which mech is better overall. Certainly not all players will agree on what is the best, but when one mech is overused in competitive play it's certainly a good indicator of what those teams deem the best.

Don't get me wrong. I would never say the Oxide is a bad mech. It's a good light mech and there's a reason why it gets picked so often by the comp guys. But that doesn't make it automatically OP. At least not if it's a light mech. What I was trying to say is that the Oxide is the only real option at least for the IS side. The others are too bad for comp play. That's why I'd rather see the other lights getting a boost.

Now I don't know how the Clan Jenners really perform or if they're really inferior to the Oxide. I haven't had the feeling by fighting them that they're anywhere weaker than the Oxide. If that's really the case then I could agree on a slight toning to the Oxide quirks to bring them in line. Of course that would also mean to boost the other IS Jenners. Having equal Jenners would be just fair, wouldn't it be?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Mech behind you, on 26 April 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Of course that would also mean to boost the other IS Jenners. Having equal Jenners would be just fair, wouldn't it be?

No one is saying nerf the Jenner and don't buff the other worse off light mechs, in fact many have supported buffs for other lights for a while now (especially poor non-Oxide Jenners).

[Jack Spade Ward]

Nerf the Oxide to the ground!!!! Its OP and P2W!!!

Oh wait... its an IS mech... so im guessing its all right?

[Darian DelFord]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

Clan missiles do in fact have worse spread, and it is felt on these mechs where you don't have artemis. The Oxide also technically has tighter hardpoint groupings.


He is arguing more so from a inner class balance, not so much balance between the classes. A lot of maps do support the push currently which is why it is used quite a bit outside of drop 1.

Interesting I did not know this. I know the hard point locations play a role, however I did not know the missile system's themselves were different in regards to spread. Will need to test this. Now you got me curious

Well I can't really argue the IS light balance, its all out of whack and has been for years.

Spadejack, on 26 April 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Nerf the Oxide to the ground!!!! Its OP and P2W!!!

Oh wait... its an IS mech... so im guessing its all right?

Sorry but I had to, Especially since he made the same exact post in the other threads with no substance.

[MerryIguana]

Ultimax, on 26 April 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Because it received further survivability quirks on top of them that made them both harder to hit when poking and tankier able to absorb more damage when you do hit them.

So its not the just the dps then is it?

[Ultimax]

MerryIguana, on 26 April 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

So its not the just the dps then is it?

No, of course not - that's just the most egregious item.

I personally feel the mech would be better off keeping the structure and agility quirks, with the DPS/Firepower being toned down.

This lets the mech retain its ability to stand up to fire in a brawl, just not with the ability to pump out 16+ DPS.

If they went the other route and removed all of its agility & structure quirks but keep the fire, that would be acceptable but that's also not the direction they have been taking things.

[Khobai]

yeah its not just the dps

its also the fact the jenner is one of the more survivable lights. its very small for a 35 tonner. and it gets decent structure quirks.

Ideally id like to see the jenner get scaled up to the size it should be.

[Darian DelFord]

Khobai, on 26 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

yeah its not just the dps

its also the fact the jenner Oxide is one of the more survivable lights. its very small for a 35 tonner. and it gets decent structure quirks.

Ideally id like to see the jenner get scaled up to the size it should be.

Fixed that for ya there Khobai

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 26 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

yeah its not just the dps

its also the fact the jenner is one of the more survivable lights. its very small for a 35 tonner. and it gets decent structure quirks.

Ideally id like to see the jenner get scaled up to the size it should be.

Eh? I would agree it's got a small stature, but it's a long, short and squat Mech. The Arms and ST's are relatively small in size, but the Front and Rear CT is 2.5-3x larger than other 35 tonners from a head-on view and the front CT is 5x larger in total volume than the others, so in overall volume, the Mech is about the same size as the 'fatty' 35 tonners. It may be short and squat, but the critical areas are much, much larger than other 35 Tonners... I'd like to think that's compensation enough.

How about giving the FS9 some mobility quirks, leg structure and a few more degrees torso pitch? /nudge nudge.

[pwnface]

Darian DelFord, on 26 April 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

But my simple point is this. Drop 4 and 5 are more indicative of MWO play style within MRBC. In those drop decks most like MWO, lights and oxides are curbed significantly. Not saying they are not a factor, just saying curbed.

Simply because in drops 4 and 5 you are only allowed 2 mechs and wasting a duplicate on a light slot is foolish when you can double up on assaults or heavies. If there wasn't a limited duplicates rule we would see a lot of teams running double Oxides in drops 4 and 5.

[Darian DelFord]

pwnface, on 26 April 2016 - 05:01 PM, said:

Simply because in drops 4 and 5 you are only allowed 2 mechs and wasting a duplicate on a light slot is foolish when you can double up on assaults or heavies. If there wasn't a limited duplicates rule we would see a lot of teams running double Oxides in drops 4 and 5.

Doubtful, or they would since they have the ability to do double now at least once.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 26 April 2016 - 05:26 PM.

[Dino Might]

pwnface, on 26 April 2016 - 05:01 PM, said:

Simply because in drops 4 and 5 you are only allowed 2 mechs and wasting a duplicate on a light slot is foolish when you can double up on assaults or heavies. If there wasn't a limited duplicates rule we would see a lot of teams running double Oxides in drops 4 and 5.

So, based on the league play examples as the basis for judgment (still dubious at best), it is shown that the Oxide is still inferior to some heavy/assault options. And yet, we need the Oxide to be nerfed, and nothing is said of those heavies or assaults. Hmmm...

[Mcgral18]

Darian DelFord, on 26 April 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

Doubtful, or they would since they have the ability to do double now at least once.

2 BKs or Maulers are still better than doubling the Oxides

It's that simple. Lights are the inferior Class overall, but the Oxide is king of that pile.
Better than many Meds, but the Heavies have a large degree more killing potential and armour.

Edited by Mcgral18, 26 April 2016 - 08:10 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 26 April 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

2 BKs or Maulers are still better than doubling the Oxides

It's that simple. Lights are the inferior Class overall, but the Oxide is king of that pile.
Better than many Meds, but the Heavies have a large degree more killing potential and armour.

I have lost count of the number of times we've lost a group queue match because we had a larger group and they had that much more armor in terms of tripled or quadrupled Black Knights and our coordination wasn't quite honed enough to overcome.

People don't seem to think of armor as as a finite resource that you have to expend to do work. Every 'Mech loses armor at some rate during a match and lights have less to go through before they pop. In this case, it really is simple math.

[The Flying Gecko]

The Oxide is OP. It is generally (and currently) the best light mech in the game, the Jenner IIC and the Arctic Cheetah are excellent mechs, even situationally better, but all around the Oxide is King, especially after nerfing the range quirks from all the other light mechs. For a long time, I strongly believed the Jenner-F was the best mech in the game... but that was several years ago. Before Quirks, before clan mechs, before the official release of the game. The Oxide can simply out-DPS and out-tank any other light. Either nerf the Oxide, or at least buff the other Jenners, and preferably both.

Edited by The Flying Gecko, 26 April 2016 - 11:22 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The Flying Gecko, on 26 April 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

The Oxide is OP. It is generally (and currently) the best light mech in the game, the Jenner IIC and the Arctic Cheetah are excellent mechs, even situationally better, but all around the Oxide is King, especially after nerfing the range quirks from all the other light mechs. For a long time, I strongly believed the Jenner-F was the best mech in the game... but that was several years ago. Before Quirks, before clan mechs, before the official release of the game. The Oxide can simply out-DPS and out-tank any other light. Either nerf the Oxide, or at least buff the other Jenners, and preferably both.

Muh LCT-1E MedLas range.

[kapusta11]

Ultimax, on 26 April 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

No, of course not - that's just the most egregious item.

I personally feel the mech would be better off keeping the structure and agility quirks, with the DPS/Firepower being toned down.

This lets the mech retain its ability to stand up to fire in a brawl, just not with the ability to pump out 16+ DPS.

If they went the other route and removed all of its agility & structure quirks but keep the fire, that would be acceptable but that's also not the direction they have been taking things.

So... remove its staying power so that it can't make use of cooldown quirks? Why use it over IIC then?

I also like how people tend to understate the value of JJs on a light mech or overstate the value of missile spread when the thing you'll be shooting most of the time is huge legs.

And what's the deal with "Oxide beats all other lights except for Cheetah" argument? Any mech can beat/ignore a light that is not Oxide, Cheetah, Firestarter or Jenner IIC, that is the real problem. Lights should pose a real threat to heavier mechs.

Edited by kapusta11, 27 April 2016 - 06:09 AM.

[Jack Booted Thug]

Hi Darian!!!