247 replies to this topic

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 24 April 2016 - 12:40 AM, said:

Weren't you just the guy that said we should be comparing mechs based on what they were capable of in and of themselves and not based on gut reactions?

Maybe after that you could put the 100 worst in oxides for a week, followed by commandos for a week....and then compare their performances.

Spoiler alert: There's a reason every 3'rd person uses the oxide, and no one uses commandos.

P.S. If you're going to quote and blow things up.... get the whole sentence and keep it in context rather than trying to cherry pick.

Well, the point is its easy to get confused as there's no consistent & reliable method to separate what a mech is capable of from what a pilot is capable of in terms of in game experience. Someone could see timberwolves doing well in game. How would they know if that success were due to pilot skill or mech advantage?

One might say the only reason oxides do well is because they run up behind people and put alphas into their paper thin rear armor. But that by itself doesn't mean anything because any light mech can do that with great success.

The main reason that's blown out of proportion is because it happens more with oxides than it does other lights. And one might say the only reason that happens is because a lot of good pilots are using oxides instead of other light mechs.

If 100 of the best pilots in the game all used commandos and in game after game they ran up behind people and put alphas into their rear armor and maneuvered well enough to get kills, then people would probably think commandos were OP because in a lot of games they would see commandos blowing apart heavy and assault mechs with good success.

Part of the reason for that success would be the tendency people have to run heavy and assault mechs with extremely thin rear armor not expecting oxides or other lights to shoot them in the back. Its not that much of an issue to me since I run 15-20 rear armor on my heavies and assaults and when oxides do alpha me in the back I usually still have a fighting chance since it takes them 2-3 more alphas to finish me & if I can turn fast enough to deny them the back shot or do enough damage to make them run away I can continue to do ok in the match without suffering too much.

Are oxides OP, or is it just that they're very good at catching people unaware, scoring hits to rear torsos and a lot of people in this game equipping rear armor that is too thin which allows oxides to inflict a lot of damage with their rear torso hits? You might begin to see how there are some fine lines there.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Stefka Kerensky, on 23 April 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

Why the other lights have no love like the oxide had?
Why the community wants the oxide to be nerfed, instead of all others light to be buffed?

(my answer: because 95% of community suck in piloting lights, and as soon as some light is good, they want it dead, 'cause they don't know how to handle and pilot a light.)

Buffing other lights is not a good idea imo, because just like the OP IS heavies, the problem is some mechs being overbuffed, once they are scaled down we'll be in much better shape in terms of balance.

What's more, in every thread about chassis balance the same mistake is made, people start discussing skill instead of looking at the mech itself. That way you will never reach a good conclusion.

Look at the mech as is. It's a decently tanky light mech (less tanky than the wolfhound or the cheetah), that's the defensive side. The mobility is good, but not astounding (good accel/decel quirks but no JJs). The offensive side is... well it has medium mech DPS and about medium mech levels of alpha.

The issue with this strong offensive package build into a light mech is that it's almost unmatched. The Jenner IIC can mount similar SRM builds, but with less DPS, a bit more spread and it isn't as tanky. Other lights are as tanky or more so, but don't come even close to the Oxide's offensive profile.

Given all these factors you see that the Oxide falls into the same category as the OP heavies right now, the Grasshopper and Black Knight. Massive offensive power with no downsides and even defensively superior to many alternatives.

Looking at Oxides killing assault mechs in PUGs tells us nothing about the mech itself, PUG-ing in general is a bad way to decide on mechs unless you are very observant and skilled enough to push mechs to their absolute limits.

If anything we can look at how competitive teams rate the Oxide and I bet if you ask them they will say that the Oxide is a bit too good.

It does need a nerf to DPS (or defensive/mobility quirks, but i think a DPS nerf would be best) just so it isn't so overwhelming. Doesn't have to be a massive PGI NERFHAMMER. In fact it shouldn't be, it should be a couple of small adjustments to get it just right.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 24 April 2016 - 01:43 AM.

[ErinaceusSwe]

Personally I don't have a problem with the oxide that better ping and hitreg wouldn't solve. It's high or at least decent, repeatable alpha is something it shares with many light mechs. If it stands still it dies really fast, like most lights. The hitreg issues I have with the oxide I have with every jenner variant and a lot of other lights with it.
It can be frustrating to get a red reticule on it with an ac20 yet seemingly not damage it at all, but then there are those times you sneeze at it and its charred wreck tumbles away. At the moment it's slightly in favor of "Oh my god! How is it NOT dead from that!?", but not too bad imo.

[STEF_]

Marmon Rzohr, on 24 April 2016 - 01:40 AM, said:

It does need a nerf to DPS (or defensive/mobility quirks, but i think a DPS nerf would be best) just so it isn't so overwhelming. Doesn't have to be a massive PGI NERFHAMMER. In fact it shouldn't be, it should be a couple of small adjustments to get it just right.

I can agree with this (light nerf) but not with the above: oxide is a bad mech.
No JJ, only 4 hardpoints, bad hitboxes (esactly the same of the other jenner).
It's the quirks that makes it good.

So, we should be delicate in nerfing it.
Before its quirks, there was no oxide around...and we really need more lights viable (not only for fun).
We don't have many choices in comp, actually.

[Random Carnage]

DDF needs to get over it. As for the so called arguments for either side, most of you clowns are citing very situational examples that add little credibility to your respective position.

The game is what it is. PGI aren't the sharpest tool in the gaming shed, though "tool" is somewhat appropriate, however they make a game that you all play, so they're doing something right.

If people qq about this or that mech being OP, that's life. Roll with it. As a predominately Dire pilot, I have little sympathy for Oxides, not because they're necessarily OP, but because PGI have set the Dire up to fail against most lights, to which I object. However, I accept this for what it is, and still play my Dire.

Scale (mech size) should be proportional to tonnage, acceleration/deceleration curves should be flattened across the board, and weapon size should be restricted by chassis size. Let the cards then fall where they will.

Lights still have it good from the perspective of this Dire pilot.

Move on.

Edited by Random Carnage, 24 April 2016 - 02:51 AM.

[PFC Carsten]

Kassatsu, on 23 April 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

How long after the (hero mech of player's choice) was released did they add those? How long did grinding those out take you? How much of it was a reward from one-time events that anyone starting today or in the near future can never get? I don't mean how many days it took you, I mean how many matches, and what kind of scores did you have? Being tier 1 I can only assume you 1: Play more often than the 'average' player, and 2: consistently score higher than the average player in any given match.

To be fair though, normally you don't have to put THAT much effort in PGIs events, except for the leaderboard stuff, where's actually a competition (I once tried and topped out somewhere in the top10).

[Alistair Winter]

Koniving, on 23 April 2016 - 09:10 PM, said:

You know, pre-quirks... Oxide was a piece of ****.
I'm just saying.

(Wonder what this says about quirks themselves?)

<raises hand>

Maybe it says that it's better to do frequent quirk passes with tiny changes every time, instead of doing huge Quirkenings twice a year, which completely change everything?

Then again, it depends what you're trying to achieve. Is your goal to have good balance, or is your goal to reinvigorate everyone's interest in the game and especially old mechs that were once considered garbage, such as the Oxide, Huginn, IV FOUR, etc. Because suddenly a lot of people did buy the Oxide and Huginn, who didn't own them previously. And then PGI was free to nerf them again.

Time and time again, I can't help but wonder which decisions are made out of ignorance and which are made for the sake of profit.

[FalconerGray]

Haven't read the entire thread, but I wanted to say that the OP video is a brilliant dissection of high quality light piloting, so, thanks for that Darian. Really enjoyed it.

There are two points I especially liked, the first being that you've highlighted the way people strip armour without thinking of the consequences. I won't talk too much about this for fear of going off topic, but part of me feels like armour stripping micro-management could be responsible for some of the cries of "low TTK BS" we hear from people getting back cored or legged by lights (i.e., salty-*** pug lord, 6MG Spider, etc). So many people front load and leg strip without any thought given to what would happen if those areas were to be targeted then QQ to the stars and beyond when they're instakilled through their 2pt rear CT.

The second point - and definitely more relevant to the topic of light fighting - is your brilliant target prioritization. I feel as if many light pilots (or perhaps, mech pilots in general) lose sight of the overall picture at times and end up with tunnel vision. As in, they've selected a target, have that mech wounded and then end up over committing whilst desperately hunting for the knockout blow, often ending up dead or too far wounded to be of any real benefit for the rest of the match. So many are guilty of this. I know I am, more often than I care to admit. The streak in the middle where you run through the Highlander, Catapult, Raven and Arctic Cheater is a textbook demonstration of knowing when to break away from your current target and when to pull another mech away from the main fight.

I also wanted to say that your attack run on the Catapult was absolutely spot on as well. That is, approaching from behind and firing only when close enough that by the time the mech has turned, you'll already have passed it. I try to run that angle as often as possible and end up cringing whenever I see other light pilots fail to capitalize in the same way.

A+ video, would watch again.

Cheers

[STEF_]

Alistair Winter, on 24 April 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

<raises hand>

Maybe it says that it's better to do frequent quirk passes with tiny changes every time, instead of doing huge Quirkenings twice a year, which completely change everything?

Then again, it depends what you're trying to achieve. Is your goal to have good balance, or is your goal to reinvigorate everyone's interest in the game and especially old mechs that were once considered garbage, such as the Oxide, Huginn, IV FOUR, etc. Because suddenly a lot of people did buy the Oxide and Huginn, who didn't own them previously. And then PGI was free to nerf them again.

Time and time again, I can't help but wonder which decisions are made out of ignorance and which are made for the sake of profit.

I lil' tinfoil hat with this post....but I can understand why u (and me) are wearing it....

[Tordin]

Pff. The Oxide needs a pretty aware pilot to be any useful. Also yeah, some hitbox issues still and once the srm ammo are gone, hes vaporized metal.
I have an Oxide which I have piloted from time to time. Gotta see how "p2w" it is, because thats a bold statement.

Edited by Tordin, 24 April 2016 - 05:09 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Stefka Kerensky, on 24 April 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

I lil' tinfoil hat with this post....but I can understand why u (and me) are wearing it....

Pick your poison, basically. It's hard to find an explanation that doesn't put them in a bad light. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, it's still a bad thing to have such dramatic changes once or twice a year, I think. Some people feel that it keeps the game fresh, I disagree.

[Darian DelFord]

Scout Derek, on 23 April 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

Sorry Daniel, Darian but I'm going to edit the clickbait title to:

"Sorry but the Oxide is Fine as is"

I know you're angry about that thread, but making bait threads over such shouldn't be necessary. Since your post did contain an actual reason behind it instead of just bait, I'm going to keep it open.

No Problems Mr. Derek Mod Man

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 24 April 2016 - 12:21 AM, said:

Except skill isn't actually a factor to whether a mech is balanced....b/c that is a quality the user has, and not one the tool has.

An "OP" mech is good no matter who pilots it.
A **** mech is good only with a good pilot.
A balanced mech is bad with a bad pilot, and good with a good pilot.

Timbers, ACH's, and Oxides fall into the first category.
Locusts fall into the second.
Hunchbacks fall into the third.

P.S. same applies to weapons.... lasers are good no matter who's using them, ballistics depend on the user, and LRMs are trash unless you know what you're doing.

Which is why I used the Founders Jenner for this thread after Gyrok decided to break out that "All Oxide Pilots are cructh pilots and have no skill"

So by that definition Founders Jenner is OP and needs nerfing. This is the type of idiocy that make people want to nerf instead of bring things up to par. Nothing against you Ordellus, you just happen to have been the first to say it.

The problem with the OXIDE in your theory is its still a a Jenner even with structure quirks you have to be damn careful about placement. One good shot will still take you out of the game. The structure Quirks are only 2 ML's worth of extra damage you can take.

legatoblues, on 24 April 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

Haven't read the entire thread, but I wanted to say that the OP video is a brilliant dissection of high quality light piloting, so, thanks for that Darian. Really enjoyed it.

There are two points I especially liked, the first being that you've highlighted the way people strip armour without thinking of the consequences. I won't talk too much about this for fear of going off topic, but part of me feels like armour stripping micro-management could be responsible for some of the cries of "low TTK BS" we hear from people getting back cored or legged by lights (i.e., salty-*** pug lord, 6MG Spider, etc). So many people front load and leg strip without any thought given to what would happen if those areas were to be targeted then QQ to the stars and beyond when they're instakilled through their 2pt rear CT.

The second point - and definitely more relevant to the topic of light fighting - is your brilliant target prioritization. I feel as if many light pilots (or perhaps, mech pilots in general) lose sight of the overall picture at times and end up with tunnel vision. As in, they've selected a target, have that mech wounded and then end up over committing whilst desperately hunting for the knockout blow, often ending up dead or too far wounded to be of any real benefit for the rest of the match. So many are guilty of this. I know I am, more often than I care to admit. The streak in the middle where you run through the Highlander, Catapult, Raven and Arctic Cheater is a textbook demonstration of knowing when to break away from your current target and when to pull another mech away from the main fight.

I also wanted to say that your attack run on the Catapult was absolutely spot on as well. That is, approaching from behind and firing only when close enough that by the time the mech has turned, you'll already have passed it. I try to run that angle as often as possible and end up cringing whenever I see other light pilots fail to capitalize in the same way.

A+ video, would watch again.

Cheers

Why thiank you, off topic a bit but I plan on doing a Jenner Light Tutorial series here to pass on what I have learned, as I was taught by some of the earliest Jenner Greats, some are still around, some have left (.

Alistair Winter, on 24 April 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

Pick your poison, basically. It's hard to find an explanation that doesn't put them in a bad light. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, it's still a bad thing to have such dramatic changes once or twice a year, I think. Some people feel that it keeps the game fresh, I disagree.

I agree with you Alistair, every 2 to 3 months this game changes drastically due to major quirk changes.

IMHO they need to hit the reset button to factory zero, then over the course of 2 to three months hit EACH weight class individually and balance in the micro and not the macro.

The point of this thread is simple. The Jenner D is not considered a threat in most games, in fact most folks will laugh at it. However a skilled pilot will make it work and work very well. I remember when people were calling for a nerf to it a few years back due to the damage potential.

However the problem that I see and i see it EVERY match that I play, is folks strip armor, they have poor situational awareness, and simply do not know how to fight lights. This is a fact that I do not think to many people can argue. However its those people who get absolutely owned (By me and others like me) that come here complaining to the forums about nerf this nerf that.

Am I passionate about Jenners yes I am, I have seen them (Like other mechs) fall from grace with no end in sight to be replaced by the newer shiner mech. However the lights have a champion right now, and yes the fact that it is one of the strongest is no lost on me or the fact that it is only worth MC (DOn't ask me why)

People make claims about mechs all the time UP and OP. There are makes out there that do need some love. However I keep seeing comments like "Damn OXIDE soloed 2 assaults and we hit it and just would not die" yet I am not seeing any video's that show this behaviour and I have asked repeatedly to anyone who has made these claims.

The other problem is this, Hit Reg is in full wonkiness, how many of these claims are due to piss poor hit reg. I know that this affects OXIDES in a good way and a bad way. But yet cries for nerfs should not be based on bad Hit Reg and I seriously think that is a BIG problem. But it does affect many other mechs.

Anyone who wants to 1v1 to "prove" anything let me know.

[QuantumButler]

Darian DelFord, on 23 April 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

Apparently, according to some, any OXIDE pilot who pilots an OXIDE is using the mech as a crutch because he SUXXOR in any other mech.

Well if this is the case, then the Founders Jenner is P2W and must be nerfed into the ground. I mean, if I mainly pilot and OXIDE and its a crutch mech then I should be destroyed in a Jenner D.

Yet I was not, it must have some mystical powers, or magical hit boxes, or some secret that the PGI devs put into the Foudners mechs. Is that why they are stuck behind a pay wall never to be had again by anyone who did not have the cash?

Seriously will all the complaining going on how OP the OXIDE is sure the Foundesr Jenner MUST SUCK in the hands of an Oxide player

Suck it witches, this Jenner pilot plays excellent in ANY Jenner you hand him. Its not the mech, its the pilot.


/sarcasm off

Discussion on:

Apparently in case you did not get it, people who pilot Oxides can't pilot any other mech. After a certain Wolf Puppy decided to say that any who play an Oxide incapable of playing any other mech. Well hate to tell you buddy, but yet again your clueless

Sorry I just hate it when people spew mis conceptions instead of facts

Fun starst at 1 minute

[Darian DelFord]

I see someone caught the irony of my OP.

[Sorbic]

Tripzter, on 23 April 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

lol pay 2 win refers to unfair advantage reletive to the non paying version. regular jenners arent bugged to hell and die when you shoot them. oxides not so much so yeah pay 2 win.

Except of course this is completely untrue. Like, laughably untrue. I don't have any more hit reg issues with Oxides then I do with other Jenners. Of course most hit reg issues follow certain players more than others so while you might be able to plant most/all laser fire on one Cheeta and quickly murder him the next game will see a guy ignoring it.

Oxides just don't give me issues like a couple of other lights do. And folks saying "best in class" when the class is generally a bunch of crap... Plain and simple of the guy you're shooting at isn't enjoying some non mech based advantage like lagging then all lights are easy enough to kill.

Edited by Sorbic, 24 April 2016 - 06:38 AM.

[FalconerGray]

Darian DelFord, on 24 April 2016 - 05:48 AM, said:

Why thiank you, off topic a bit but I plan on doing a Jenner Light Tutorial series here to pass on what I have learned, as I was taught by some of the earliest Jenner Greats, some are still around, some have left (.

Please do, I know I'd very much enjoy that.

Light piloting is such an interesting contrast compared to everything else. I feel as if it might be the weight class with the greatest difference in results between an ordinary game and a great game. For me, An ordinary game in a heavy or assault is around 400 damage, with a great game being 600-700. Whereas in a light mech, an ordinary game is 200-300, but a great game is 800+. I feel like I have a greater potential in a light compared to what I do in a heavier mech, but a much, much smaller margin of error to work with.

I really do love the light mechs (and to an extent, fast mediums like the Ice Ferret.....ok, maybe just the Ice Ferret), but that is because the playstyle is completely different to that what you might see in the heavier classes.

I recall a friend of mine watching me play one day recently. I had an amazing 900 damage game in an SPL JR7-IIC, felt like there was no way I could top that in the same session, so switched to a meta-EBJ (2xLPL+Gauss). Did near enough to the exact same amount of damage as I did in the Jenner, but with a far more relaxed, patient type of playstyle and at the end of the match, old mate commented that it was the most boring game of MWO he had ever seen me play. Make of that what you will.

I think the important point here is that light mechs have a far higher risk v reward equation than the other mechs. That is to say, the difference between a bad match in a light and good match is usually much bigger than the same in a heavy or assault. However, it seems that many people miss that point and upon seeing many lights scoring a 200dmg average, loudly call a "light mechs op, plz nerf QQQ" the instant they see a skilled pilot buck the trend a pull an MVP score, as if it shouldn't be possible for a smaller mech to do such things.

To all the whingers, do it yourself. Please, jump into a JR7-O/D, ACH, JR7-IIC and let us know how you fare with actually, long term stats. My point is that I believe there will be a much greater gap between your good and bad games compared to what you might find in the heavier chassis. At least, that's how it is with me....

[DrxAbstract]

Jenners OP:

[Jikil]

I don't know why people think the Oxide is ok as it is now. Sure a video posted showing a good pilot in a good match makes it seem like its just pilot skill but lets be honest if that match had turned for the worse it probably would have been a different story. Not only did the enemy team have the ****** spawn side but they had multiple lrm boats on a map that negates most lrms with cover.

The main problem is that the Oxide got swole from quirks and isn't a pushover like jenners used to be. Actually it got really swole and now has the durability of a 50 ton mech with the agility of a light and the dps the of a heavy mech.

Now I know the quirks come and go. Just look at the thunderbolt 5SS if you want to see a mech that was propped up by quirks. Ghost heat and quirk changes took this mech out of play super fast.

If you want to see some videos showing just how good Oxides are take a look at some of the 1 and 2 drops for high end MRBC matches. Oxide was the star light mech of MRBC and tons of drops had them with good reason. Comp players are usually a good barometer for what mechs are good and what mechs aren't.

[Sorbic]

Alistair Winter, on 24 April 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

<raises hand>

Maybe it says that it's better to do frequent quirk passes with tiny changes every time, instead of doing huge Quirkenings twice a year, which completely change everything?

Then again, it depends what you're trying to achieve. Is your goal to have good balance, or is your goal to reinvigorate everyone's interest in the game and especially old mechs that were once considered garbage, such as the Oxide, Huginn, IV FOUR, etc. Because suddenly a lot of people did buy the Oxide and Huginn, who didn't own them previously. And then PGI was free to nerf them again.

Time and time again, I can't help but wonder which decisions are made out of ignorance and which are made for the sake of profit.

Might be from time to time but one problem with such trains of though is that they do the same thing to free mechs and even individual weapon systems alike. Much like many another game, and the ******** playing with the thermostat in the office, people tend to over compensate in an flailing attempt to reach the end goal in one go.

[Chrome Magnus]

Jikil, on 24 April 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

I don't know why people think the Oxide is ok as it is now. Sure a video posted showing a good pilot in a good match makes it seem like its just pilot skill but lets be honest if that match had turned for the worse it probably would have been a different story. Not only did the enemy team have the ****** spawn side but they had multiple lrm boats on a map that negates most lrms with cover.

The main problem is that the Oxide got swole from quirks and isn't a pushover like jenners used to be. Actually it got really swole and now has the durability of a 50 ton mech with the agility of a light and the dps the of a heavy mech.

Now I know the quirks come and go. Just look at the thunderbolt 5SS if you want to see a mech that was propped up by quirks. Ghost heat and quirk changes took this mech out of play super fast.

If you want to see some videos showing just how good Oxides are take a look at some of the 1 and 2 drops for high end MRBC matches. Oxide was the star light mech of MRBC and tons of drops had them with good reason. Comp players are usually a good barometer for what mechs are good and what mechs aren't.

Can't say that it seems that "swole" considering some of the structure quirks can be overcome by one shot from a single medium laser... And ignoring that the few recent MRBC vids I've seen lack such Oxide representation it wouldn't mean it's OP. Just less bad. Not saying it couldn't use a small tweaking but really I'd be happy with starting by knocking off just 4-6 structure off the legs OR maybe a 4-5% cooldown nerf.