247 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Darian DelFord, on 26 April 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

"In MRBC play the OXIDE Rocks" Well in drop 1 yes. Get past drop 1 and the OXIDES and lights viability plummet.

Again, that is just because in certain maps don't allow for that short range of play where the Oxide is best at, almost any push strat you will most likely see an Oxide provided it allows for it (drop 3 does not) and even its damage isn't telling of the full effect, because it can force an assault to deal with it which takes a lot of firepower off the main body, you don't have to do incredible damage to make an impact, the damage potential definitely has a psychological effect should it manage to get in its optimum range.

[MerryIguana]

Ultimax, on 24 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

It's just all of our collective imagination, nothing to see here, no over-quirks at all, 16+ DPS on a light mech is totally fine.

Remind me again, how long has oxide had its current offensive buffs. Im pretty sure its had them for over a year. And if thats the case, why is it a problem now and not then?

[Darian DelFord]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Again, that is just because in certain maps don't allow for that short range of play where the Oxide is best at, almost any push strat you will most likely see an Oxide provided it allows for it (drop 3 does not) and even its damage isn't telling of the full effect, because it can force an assault to deal with it which takes a lot of firepower off the main body, you don't have to do incredible damage to make an impact, the damage potential definitely has a psychological effect should it manage to get in its optimum range.

I agree certain maps agree with certain play styles and mechs more than others. And yes, if I had a C-Bill for everytime I had people chasing me or worried about me I would have retired from MERC'ing a long time ago.

But my simple point is this. Drop 4 and 5 are more indicative of MWO play style within MRBC. In those drop decks most like MWO, lights and oxides are curbed significantly. Not saying they are not a factor, just saying curbed.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 26 April 2016 - 07:33 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Darian DelFord, on 26 April 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

But my simple point is this. Drop 4 and 5 are more indicative of MWO play style within MRBC. In those drop decks most like MWO, lights and oxides are curbed significantly. Not saying they are not a factor, just saying curbed.

Drop 4 I would agree is more representative (and is a solid drop for Oxide potential, though they aren't quite the shoe-in), drop 5 I wouldn't though, that is an irregularly fat drop.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 April 2016 - 07:38 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

Drop 4 I would agree is more representative (and is a solid drop for Oxide potential, though they aren't quite the shoe-in), drop 5 I wouldn't though, that is an irregularly fat drop.

Every thing is fat over 35 tons

[DrxAbstract]

pwnface, on 26 April 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

Drop 1 aside the oxide is still the most commonly taken light mech.

Internal testing doesn't have to be super scientific to draw accurate conclusions. When multiple independent teams draw the same conclusions it's likely not a coincidence.

Bringing up the light weight class versus other weight classes has absolutely no bearing on the relative strength of the Oxide within the light weight class and has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.

It's clear that you have your own opinion and are just here to debunk the "oxides are the strongest" hype train. I really don't care at all to try to convince you of anything.

Most common does not equal overpowered.
Most viable does not equal overpowered.

Personal beliefs are not validation of, or justification for, effecting changes. That's all the 'internal tests' amount to: Opinion. And yes, it most certainly does have bearing - It's all connected. Any changes made based upon Oxide's relative performance to other Lights (Whether these changes are to the Oxide itself, or other said Lights) is going to affect the other weight classes... And it is a part of the conversation concerning the Oxide as a whole because there's more to all this than this one specific topic, whether you feel it has bearing on your conversation in particular in another story. In the end, it is still tied into the greater discussion.

And... I dont need to debunk that hype, because there's no proof it is the strongest Light... None. Plenty of opinions, certainly - But no proof. There's plenty of proof it is a good, strong Light Mech in general, though. Could it use some toning down? I dont personally believe so, but then again it does have two factually proven advantages over other Brawler/Striker Combat Lights, to which I've already offered my conclusions regarding them and am not going to repeat myself.

Jikil, on 26 April 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

Are you seriously trying to make an argument to eat ****?

If your willing to defend the absurd then maybe you aren't in a position to properly see the oxide for what it is.

Maybe you should take that up with the person who initially used the analogy, not the guy trying to give a counter-point within the context of said analogy? Needs more ad hominem.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 26 April 2016 - 08:08 AM.

[Murphy7]

I have a very hard time believing the Oxide is ever OP when it still has the giant CT damage magnet of all mechs in the Jenner chassis.

Light on light, I think the mistake some make in an Oxide vs Cheetah/Wolfhound/Firestarter/Spider fight in is that people aim for the Oxide's legs when in its particular case (as with other Jenners, and the Jenner IIcs) you would be better off aiming at the torso and killing it that way.

But of course, this is the internet, and in the life of every complaining player their wins are earned by their skills, and their losses can be attributed either to the malfeasance of others (botting, synch dropping, seal clubbing, dishonorable tactics), poor game design (OP mechs, p2w, tech imbalance, drop position imbalance, etc) or lag.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Murphy7, on 26 April 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

Light on light, I think the mistake some make in an Oxide vs Cheetah/Wolfhound/Firestarter/Spider fight in is that people aim for the Oxide's legs when in its particular case (as with other Jenners, and the Jenner IIcs) you would be better off aiming at the torso and killing it that way.

Good players already know this..........

[The Mech behind you]

Sometimes a mech is used by everyone because it's OP and sometimes a mech is used by everyone because the alternatives suck. And the least one is the case here. Judging by the nerf history so far i'd say if the Oxide would get nerfed, the nerf hammer would hit it so hard that it becomes Urbie fodder and gets extinct. And this means another light mech that performs much worse than the other classes.

Why does this come up now? The Oxide exists for a while now and also do the quirks. No one cared about the Oxide before. But now that all the other Lights (finally?) sucks the agenda gets focused on the Oxide.

All I can see here is some kind of whack-a-mole. As soon as any Light is somewhat competitive to the other classes it HAS to be whacked down, doesn't it?

And wth why is all this talk only about the Oxide? What about the Clan Jenners? They can carry 6 SRM6s which is a much higher volley than the 4 srm4 from the oxide. And they have JJs. What about the ACH that brings a 36 dmg alpha which can be applied with surgical precision? Also the ACH is a waaaay better tanker than the Oxide.

Edited by The Mech behind you, 26 April 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Mech behind you, on 26 April 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

The Oxide exists for a while now and also do the quirks.

It has had the quirks since the re-balance (and SRMs were buffed at the same time), which is around when people realized how powerful they were. It takes a few months for comp meta to trickle down the tiers in the PUG queue, which is why you are just now seeing complaints.

The Mech behind you, on 26 April 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

And wth why is all this talk only about the Oxide? What about the Clan Jenners? They can carry 6 SRM6s which is a much higher volley than the 4 srm4 from the oxide. And they have JJs. What about the ACH that brings a 36 dmg alpha which can be applied with surgical precision? Also the ACH is a waaaay better tanker than the Oxide.

As has been repeated several times, the Jenner IIC's are not as comparable because they don't have the accuracy or DPS the Oxide does, the Oxide is also tougher despite having the IS XL. The Cheetah also has the worst DPS of the three in a brawl due to being heat capped and is definitely not the tankier than the Oxide, the Cheetah's limbs come off really easy.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 April 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[KodiakGW]

The Mech behind you, on 26 April 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

Sometimes a mech is used by everyone because it's OP and sometimes a mech is used by everyone because the alternatives suck.

Yep. Time to give the other Jenners similar structure quirks. +16 leg structure, +12 arm structure on my Sarah's Jenner...YES, PLEASE!

FYI for those that don't know - Talking about a custom painted JR7-D, so the one for CBills would get the same quirks.

[DrxAbstract]

Return the Huginn to its former glory! Give all Jenners structure buffs! Give all Lights mobility, weapon range, cooldown and heat gen quirks! It's time to rise up! Throw off our Heavy Meta Mech overlords! Viva la resistance!

#LightLivesMatter

Locust Master Race.

Edited by Scout Derek, 26 April 2016 - 09:09 AM.
Removal of space spam.

[Ultimax]

MerryIguana, on 26 April 2016 - 07:29 AM, said:

Remind me again, how long has oxide had its current offensive buffs. Im pretty sure its had them for over a year. And if thats the case, why is it a problem now and not then?

Because it received further survivability quirks on top of them that made them both harder to hit when poking and tankier able to absorb more damage when you do hit them.

Edited by Ultimax, 26 April 2016 - 09:22 AM.

[The Mech behind you]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

As has been repeated several times, the Jenner IIC's are not as comparable because they don't have the accuracy or DPS the Oxide does, the Oxide is also tougher despite having the IS XL. The Cheetah also has the worst DPS of the three in a brawl due to being heat capped and is definitely not the tankier than the Oxide, the Cheetah's limbs come off really easy.

I have to admit I don't have Jenner IICs so I haven't played them yet, but I don't see how there can be a difference in accuracy when we talk about SRMs. You could also take a 6 SRM4 or the very popular 4 SRM4 + 2 SRM2 build to avoid the SRM6 spread. The Cheetah has excellent hitboxes while the Oxide has... well a Jenner CT (it's even named after the mech)

A few points I have forgotten to mention in my other post:

- First I want to point out that I prefer to see the other lights pushed to get a more even level between the lights instead of nerfing other lights.

- About recent light nerfs. Those lights like the Raven Nevermore or the Firestarter or Cheetah were OP because of either lagshield or broken hitboxes. Neither is a fact here. The Oxide doesn't have lagshield and can easily be hit.

- The Oxide can't be really P2W if there's a Jenner IIC around available for everybody (is it relesed for CBills yet?). And which is a similar mech that has pretty much the same loadout.

- Please remember the Oxide still needs to get very close to deal a maximum of damage. Firing those SRMs at 250m on a moving target is like throwing a bunch noodles. The Oxide or any other non-sniping light has to get close and behind a singled out mech to be effective. Try to run through the open to attack a lance of mechs and you won't make a 100m till you're toasted.

The Oxide capitalizes on the current meta of heavies and assaults. Those are the optimum targets for a SRM harasser like the Oxide. I can deal 400-500 dmg in 3-5 minutes in my COM-3A (2 SRM6 loadout) against big targets before I run out ammo. And that is on a regular base. Commando OP?

- There might be a high number of Oxides in MRBC, but the Oxide is almost extinct in the solo queue. Now the comp players will argue that the MRBC numbers are more important because it's part of their comp scene while the casual players / solo players will argue that there's only a small number in the comp scene and most games take place in the solo queue because it's their scene. Who's right here? I can't judge.

- Lights and tankiness. Since when do we call lights tanky? Is this the new excuse after the lagshield excuse doesn't apply anymore? Is 'tanky light' newspeak for 'I can't hit that bugger'?

[Darian DelFord]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

As has been repeated several times, the Jenner IIC's are not as comparable because they don't have the accuracy or DPS the Oxide does, the Oxide is also tougher despite having the IS XL. The Cheetah also has the worst DPS of the three in a brawl due to being heat capped and is definitely not the tankier than the Oxide, the Cheetah's limbs come off really easy.

Is there a difference between Clan and IS missile accuracy? Other than spread quirks I thought they were treated the exact same?

IMHO the only thing really worse for the IIC's over the other Jenners is the arms. The IIC's arms get removed far more than the IS variants.

The Mech behind you, on 26 April 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

Sometimes a mech is used by everyone because it's OP and sometimes a mech is used by everyone because the alternatives suck. And the least one is the case here. Judging by the nerf history so far i'd say if the Oxide would get nerfed, the nerf hammer would hit it so hard that it becomes Urbie fodder and gets extinct. And this means another light mech that performs much worse than the other classes.

Why does this come up now? The Oxide exists for a while now and also do the quirks. No one cared about the Oxide before. But now that all the other Lights (finally?) sucks the agenda gets focused on the Oxide.

All I can see here is some kind of whack-a-mole. As soon as any Light is somewhat competitive to the other classes it HAS to be whacked down, doesn't it?

And wth why is all this talk only about the Oxide? What about the Clan Jenners? They can carry 6 SRM6s which is a much higher volley than the 4 srm4 from the oxide. And they have JJs. What about the ACH that brings a 36 dmg alpha which can be applied with surgical precision? Also the ACH is a waaaay better tanker than the Oxide.

Alas I am afraid this may very well come to pass. Whenever a light decides to stand tall and tell the fatties I am not afraid of you the Nerf bat just a comes swinging. I Hope this is not the case but history does tend to repeat itself.

DrxAbstract, on 26 April 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Return the Huginn to its former glory! Give all Jenners structure buffs! Give all Lights mobility, weapon range, cooldown and heat gen quirks! It's time to rise up! Throw off our Heavy Meta Mech overlords! Viva la resistance!

#LightLivesMatter

Locust Master Race.

OK THIS one made me laugh my arse off.

[pwnface]

DrxAbstract, on 26 April 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

And... I dont need to debunk that hype, because there's no proof it is the strongest Light... None. Plenty of opinions, certainly - But no proof. There's plenty of proof it is a good, strong Light Mech in general, though. Could it use some toning down? I dont personally believe so, but then again it does have two factually proven advantages over other Brawler/Striker Combat Lights, to which I've already offered my conclusions regarding them and am not going to repeat myself.

This argument is fallacious at it's core.

We've already established whether a mech is good or not is opinion.
We've already established that you can't factually prove an opinion.
Based on these statements and your logic, balance changes can never be justified since they can't be proven with fact.

My assertion is that overwhelming popular opinion by competitive players is plenty of justification for potential balance changes (whether we are talking about the oxide or not). You don't need facts to justify changes since relative mech strength is by it's very nature based on opinions and cant not be proven as fact (you said this yourself). Personally, I don't really care if the Oxide stays the same or gets nerfed. I just can't help but point out your weak logic.

[Darian DelFord]

pwnface, on 26 April 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

My assertion is that overwhelming popular opinion by competitive players is plenty of justification for potential balance changes (whether we are talking about the oxide or not).

So long as "opinions" are based on MWO game play and not competitive games that have more stringent rule sets.

[pwnface]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

As has been repeated several times, the Jenner IIC's are not as comparable because they don't have the accuracy or DPS the Oxide does, the Oxide is also tougher despite having the IS XL. The Cheetah also has the worst DPS of the three in a brawl due to being heat capped and is definitely not the tankier than the Oxide, the Cheetah's limbs come off really easy.

This is pretty important. There are intangibles when you compare mechs. Measuring mechs ONLY by their relative burst DPS is foolish. Hitboxes, sustained DPS, damage spread, availability of jump jets, armor/structure bonuses, agility quirks all tie in to a mechs overall strength. It's impossible to measure hitboxes or mobility versus DPS, so players need make conclusions about which mech is better overall. Certainly not all players will agree on what is the best, but when one mech is overused in competitive play it's certainly a good indicator of what those teams deem the best.

[pwnface]

Darian DelFord, on 26 April 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

So long as "opinions" are based on MWO game play and not competitive games that have more stringent rule sets.

Even outside of Drop 1 in MRBC where streaks ARE allowed, Oxides were still the most common light mech. The no streaks restriction exists only for 1 drop.

It's also not the case that the Oxide is particularly weak against Streaks compared to other light mechs. All light mechs are vulnerable to massed SSRM6 and bringing an anti-light weapon that affect MOST light mechs equally into the conversation does absolutely nothing to strengthen or weaken an argument on an Oxides relative strength compared to other light mechs.

Edited by pwnface, 26 April 2016 - 10:46 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

pwnface, on 26 April 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Even outside of Drop 1 in MRBC where streaks ARE allowed, Oxides were still the most common light mech. The no streaks restriction exists only for 1 drop.

It's also not the case that the Oxide is particularly weak against Streaks compared to other light mechs. All light mechs are vulnerable to massed SSRM6 and bringing an anti-light weapon that affect MOST light mechs equally into the conversation does absolutely nothing to strengthen or weaken an argument on an Oxides relative strength compared to other light mechs.

Most common perhaps but not the power houses they are in drop 1., This has been covered in previous posts by both myself and Kalasa