14 replies to this topic

[Ragnahawk]

Locust 1E

These new quirks have completely killed it more than any other nerf. I can only get about Three Alphas before its going Super Nova. This is clan heat. For a 20 tonner with 20 armor, that can't expose itself for more than a second without exploding (And avoiding 330 Streak 6 roaming the scout queue). Now what? I have to take a stupid oxide to every single match to do good? STOP DOING THIS! PLEASE STOP NERFING OLD MECHS. DON'T ROLL NEW MECHS OUT WITH GOD QUIRKS! At least with the range you could snipe the streak crows outside of their range. At least with the heat generation you could brawl with Arctic Cheetahs without complete perfect accuracy.

What I wonder is why the Black Knight only had a little paint chipped off the CT (What was it like -3 structure off on the last patch)? You wanna nerf mechs? Lets start by correcting the issue of the Black Knight. This mech is Banshee 3M quality. Tougher than the Banshee even because of its tight hitboxes. It's damn near indestructible, and you only have to fire about 7 times to rack up 500 damage. 500 Pin Point Damage.

Why? Everyone I've talked to doesn't want to play it, because its broken. Same with the Arctic Cheetah. And the Marauder Bounty Hunter. Then you compare the other never used again mechs... Like the Thunderbolt, like the Firestarter, like the 4 other Jenners.

So to summarize the above:

Fun not allowed. Must play specified mechs only to win. "Mech you like" can go die in a cesspit.

Edited by Red Comet1, 24 April 2016 - 12:25 AM.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

Totally understand your point buddy but I guess PGI is under staff in the 'quirks' department.

[Tarl Cabot]

If I had my way, as your heat increased your mech would slow down and become less agile, in a similar fashion that Clan mechs slow down when losing a side torso. All mechs would react similarly.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 24 April 2016 - 07:53 AM.

[Volthorne]

Locust 1E was too good compared to the other locusts. Now it isn't. The other locusts overheated way too fast for how much DPS they could put out. Now they don't.

I fail to see the problem.

[Shadey99]

Tarl Cabot, on 24 April 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

If I had my way, as your heat increased your mech would slow down and become less agile, in a similar fashion that Clan mechs slow down when losing a side torso. All mechs would react similarly.

Since that would have to be applied to all mechs, there are a few issues to this...

First their are specific penalties in MWO because of the way PGI interpreted heat when translating it over to the game from TT. Light mechs face this more than any other type because they run the smallest engines. Also they have the least space to use for heatsinks, making them run hot longer and giving them smaller heat caps.

Second this would apply to all the way up to Assault mechs, so a significant hit to speed (say 50% max) would make them little more than turrets after releasing a volley. No retreat or brawling at that point since even things like torso twist are based on speed. A DWF that is suppressing the enemy could have their speed drop from ~50 kph to 20 kph like they had been legged. I think everyone whose ever seen a legged DWF knows they would die soon after and they could barely advance while firing.

While the idea is nice, and speed penalties for heat is in the original game, the heat scale as we know it in MWO would completely cause the game to break and long range sniping would become the only style of play. After all, who cares how slow you move if the enemy is 1km away and you are next to your cover?

[Cy Mitchell]

Shadey99, on 25 April 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Since that would have to be applied to all mechs, there are a few issues to this...

First their are specific penalties in MWO because of the way PGI interpreted heat when translating it over to the game from TT. Light mechs face this more than any other type because they run the smallest engines. Also they have the least space to use for heatsinks, making them run hot longer and giving them smaller heat caps.

Second this would apply to all the way up to Assault mechs, so a significant hit to speed (say 50% max) would make them little more than turrets after releasing a volley. No retreat or brawling at that point since even things like torso twist are based on speed. A DWF that is suppressing the enemy could have their speed drop from ~50 kph to 20 kph like they had been legged. I think everyone whose ever seen a legged DWF knows they would die soon after and they could barely advance while firing.

While the idea is nice, and speed penalties for heat is in the original game, the heat scale as we know it in MWO would completely cause the game to break and long range sniping would become the only style of play. After all, who cares how slow you move if the enemy is 1km away and you are next to your cover?

Light Mechs should not be able to do the damage of Mediums, Heavies or Assaults so they should not have the same type of heat generation or heat dissipation as those Mechs.

Seriously, the OP could only Alpha 3 times in a row? IMO no Mech should be able to Alpha more than once without serious negative consequences like reduced speed, reduced torso twist and sensor degrading. Alphas should be a last ditched "Oh, $hit!" action not the meta.

Edited by Rampage, 25 April 2016 - 11:11 AM.

[Shadey99]

There is absolutely nothing in mechwarrior that says 'lights cannot have significant guns'. The problem is the must boat light guns guns to do this as they don't have the tonnage for running big guns. Mediums actually have many of the same issues running either one or two larger guns (Shadow Hawk) or lots of smaller ones (Nova). Alphas weren't even that odd in TT, however most mechs carried weapons for different engagement ranges because unlike for us, in what is effectively an FPS, you couldn't know what range or terrain you would need to engage at.

brw in TT 6 medium lasers would incur 18 heat (6x3), with 10 DHS it would cool 20 per game 'turn'. 'Running' or full speed movement would add another 2 points so a Locust 1E in TT could fire indefinitely every turn with all weapons. Their heatscale would only build up after you went over your per turn dissipation.

While six weapons may happen to be an 'alpha', their is no reason to limit 'boating' in this way. In TT firing all weapons for the range you were at to the enemy was normal. That may mean a AC5 and a LL, 6 MLs, or even 5 CSPLs depending on the range. All you had to worry about was not going to far into your heat scale. Weapons that fire faster than once per 5 seconds (1 TT turn) like in MWO drastically change everything especially with aiming over random damage as the means of imparting your firepower.

6 MLs is only 30 points of damage and even though lasers are hit scan weapons they do damage over time (DoT) so realistically you usually don't take 5 damage per laser unless your standing still. Damage on hit weapons like PPCs and autocannons are scary for their damage output, hence 4xAC5 and even 5xAC5 builds doing massive amounts of damage even though each only deals 5 damage like the ML does.

Edited by Shadey99, 25 April 2016 - 12:12 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Shadey99, on 25 April 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Since that would have to be applied to all mechs, there are a few issues to this...

First their are specific penalties in MWO because of the way PGI interpreted heat when translating it over to the game from TT. Light mechs face this more than any other type because they run the smallest engines. Also they have the least space to use for heatsinks, making them run hot longer and giving them smaller heat caps.

Second this would apply to all the way up to Assault mechs, so a significant hit to speed (say 50% max) would make them little more than turrets after releasing a volley. No retreat or brawling at that point since even things like torso twist are based on speed. A DWF that is suppressing the enemy could have their speed drop from ~50 kph to 20 kph like they had been legged. I think everyone whose ever seen a legged DWF knows they would die soon after and they could barely advance while firing.

While the idea is nice, and speed penalties for heat is in the original game, the heat scale as we know it in MWO would completely cause the game to break and long range sniping would become the only style of play. After all, who cares how slow you move if the enemy is 1km away and you are next to your cover?

It was in the original game and Solaris boardgames, as well as the MPBT versions of the game, as well as the original MW, which was also used as the combat engine for the 1st MPBT on GEnie. And yeap, it would apply to all mechs. I did not note how much of a percentage it should be there, and due to how PGI has full heatsinks ADD to the base heatscale, it should be done as a percentage. I do not see using a hard set number off based off the original heatscale would work. Currently the Clans are hit with a 20% movement penalty with a loss of a cXL side torso. That would be removed.

Example Set it at 33%/66% of the heatscale, with a 20%/40% penalty. 1st soft override at 80/85%, 2nd hard override at 100%/105%. Or 25/50/75% thresholds causing 10/20/30% slowdown, similar override thresholds already listed. This would also make more sense to newcomers of how the mech is affected by heat. Heat, as it increases, negative affects the reaction times of the myomer bundles that actually moves the mech.

Brawler? They would adjust. Those running hot builds such as multiple ERPPC will become sitting ducks when the fights get into brawling range. As for "sniping" firing all of those weapons would also mean their reverse speed has also slowed down. They will either have to accept it or change their builds to reduce the long range hit while equipping cooler, close range weapons.

Edit - just to add - This is also where Ghost Heat system would be re-evaluated and changed from the no-ghost > big hit to micro-Ghost Heat, dependent on the number of every weapons being fired. On top of that reining in the fast recycle/cooldown timers on the larger energy weapons, the LPL, ERLL, ERPPC. Those weapons, besides the heat itself that could damage the weapons, is also drawing lots of power off the engine.

If all were to be done, I would suggest not do it all at the same time. HeatScale first then followed by micro-GH/cooldown timers, or micro-GH/cooldown timers then HeatScale, especially with the 1/month patching.

It keeps it with the flavor of the BT universe without making keeping it exactly to the rules.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 26 April 2016 - 04:54 AM.

[Platinum Spider]

Red Comet1, on 24 April 2016 - 12:23 AM, said:

Locust 1E

These new quirks have completely killed it more than any other nerf.

I disagree. My 1e with 6SPL is running just fine, better even than before. Popping in and out of cover and then dashing away when you get focused is even better than before.

[MountainCopper]

No, they just rethought why the Locust which can mount the most firepower through energy hardpoints ALSO gets the biggest bonuses of all variants, being able to rival the 6xML Jenner.

It was senseless to begin with. Besides, being able to alpha 3 times with an all-energy loadout before the need to cool off is already questionable and nothing to sneeze at.

[Savage Wolf]

They brought the DPS of the different mech classes closer to each other in MWO, because they all need to be worth the same. In TT an Atlas is worth more than a Locust so you either brought an Atlas or more Locusts. You can't use that logic in a game where the team size is fixed or we would all be running assaults.

[Ragnahawk]

Volthorne, on 25 April 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Locust 1E was too good compared to the other locusts. Now it isn't. The other locusts overheated way too fast for how much DPS they could put out. Now they don't.

I fail to see the problem.

^
The issue isn't that all the locusts need to be balanced with the other locusts. The issue is that locust is severely cut from the list of good preforming light mechs. If these other locusts are sucking then make that a separate issue somewhere else. I personally think the 1V and 3M preform well, albeit difficult to use.

Shadey99, on 25 April 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Since that would have to be applied to all mechs, there are a few issues to this...

First their are specific penalties in MWO because of the way PGI interpreted heat when translating it over to the game from TT. Light mechs face this more than any other type because they run the smallest engines. Also they have the least space to use for heatsinks, making them run hot longer and giving them smaller heat caps.

Second this would apply to all the way up to Assault mechs, so a significant hit to speed (say 50% max) would make them little more than turrets after releasing a volley. No retreat or brawling at that point since even things like torso twist are based on speed. A DWF that is suppressing the enemy could have their speed drop from ~50 kph to 20 kph like they had been legged. I think everyone whose ever seen a legged DWF knows they would die soon after and they could barely advance while firing.

While the idea is nice, and speed penalties for heat is in the original game, the heat scale as we know it in MWO would completely cause the game to break and long range sniping would become the only style of play. After all, who cares how slow you move if the enemy is 1km away and you are next to your cover?

It's not really that much to be concerned with. These mechs that generate a lot of heat can easily manage it, just stay out of the 90% heat range, stay out of override. Honestly if you make it like that, it causes players to be able to shoot more, because the heat dissipates faster. IF your concerned about the direwolf, I saw a direwolf walk into one of our practices against 5 mech drops and do 800 damage. That's insane considering that limited amount of mechs used.

Rampage, on 25 April 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

Light Mechs should not be able to do the damage of Mediums, Heavies or Assaults so they should not have the same type of heat generation or heat dissipation as those Mechs.

Seriously, the OP could only Alpha 3 times in a row? IMO no Mech should be able to Alpha more than once without serious negative consequences like reduced speed, reduced torso twist and sensor degrading. Alphas should be a last ditched "Oh, $hit!" action not the meta.

Whoa whoa whoa broman! Dump that thought into a cesspit please. That will cause more harm than good when it comes to the whole skill factor. (That is why we play this game, for the skill, tactics and/or fun) That's like dropping a "I keep losing" bomb for everybody to suffer.

Shadey99, on 25 April 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

There is absolutely nothing in mechwarrior that says 'lights cannot have significant guns'. The problem is the must boat light guns guns to do this as they don't have the tonnage for running big guns. Mediums actually have many of the same issues running either one or two larger guns (Shadow Hawk) or lots of smaller ones (Nova). Alphas weren't even that odd in TT, however most mechs carried weapons for different engagement ranges because unlike for us, in what is effectively an FPS, you couldn't know what range or terrain you would need to engage at.

brw in TT 6 medium lasers would incur 18 heat (6x3), with 10 DHS it would cool 20 per game 'turn'. 'Running' or full speed movement would add another 2 points so a Locust 1E in TT could fire indefinitely every turn with all weapons. Their heatscale would only build up after you went over your per turn dissipation.

While six weapons may happen to be an 'alpha', their is no reason to limit 'boating' in this way. In TT firing all weapons for the range you were at to the enemy was normal. That may mean a AC5 and a LL, 6 MLs, or even 5 CSPLs depending on the range. All you had to worry about was not going to far into your heat scale. Weapons that fire faster than once per 5 seconds (1 TT turn) like in MWO drastically change everything especially with aiming over random damage as the means of imparting your firepower.

6 MLs is only 30 points of damage and even though lasers are hit scan weapons they do damage over time (DoT) so realistically you usually don't take 5 damage per laser unless your standing still. Damage on hit weapons like PPCs and autocannons are scary for their damage output, hence 4xAC5 and even 5xAC5 builds doing massive amounts of damage even though each only deals 5 damage like the ML does.

I like this post. THUMBS UP!

Tarl Cabot, on 25 April 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

It was in the original game and Solaris boardgames, as well as the MPBT versions of the game, as well as the original MW, which was also used as the combat engine for the 1st MPBT on GEnie. And yeap, it would apply to all mechs. I did not note how much of a percentage it should be there, and due to how PGI has full heatsinks ADD to the base heatscale, it should be done as a percentage. I do not see using a hard set number off based off the original heatscale would work. Currently the Clans are hit with a 20% movement penalty with a loss of a cXL side torso. That would be removed.

Example Set it at 33%/66% of the heatscale, with a 20%/40% penalty. 1st soft override at 80/85%, 2nd hard override at 100%/105%. Or 25/50/75% thresholds causing 10/20/30% slowdown, similar override thresholds already listed. This would also make more sense to newcomers of how the mech is affected by heat. Heat, as it increases, negative affects the reaction times of the myomer bundles that actually moves the mech.

Brawler? They would adjust. Those running hot builds such as multiple ERPPC will become sitting ducks when the fights get into brawling range. As for "sniping" firing all of those weapons would also mean their reverse speed has also slowed down. They will either have to accept it or change their builds to reduce the long range hit while equipping cooler, close range weapons.

Edit - just to add - This is also where Ghost Heat system would be re-evaluated and changed from the no-ghost > big hit to micro-Ghost Heat, dependent on the number of every weapons being fired. On top of that reining in the fast recycle/cooldown timers on the larger energy weapons, the LPL, ERLL, ERPPC. Those weapons, besides the heat itself that could damage the weapons, is also drawing lots of power off the engine.

If all were to be done, I would suggest not do it all at the same time. HeatScale first then followed by micro-GH/cooldown timers, or micro-GH/cooldown timers then HeatScale, especially with the 1/month patching.

It keeps it with the flavor of the BT universe without making keeping it exactly to the rules.

Another one for the heat penalty. Awesome. Can we make this happen? I would like to add my idea though.

Ghost heat replaced with a cool down penalty. It could be double, triple, quadruple. I don't care. I do not like the extra heat penalty. Especially on double ac20s. If there's a cooldown, its going to generate the amount of heat I want to spend, so that I do not have to expose myself for too long. I will be able to use cover like all these other stupid builds that work around the ghost heat, just with the same weapons and not different ones. I can easily keep the heat where I want if I am using cover. Whether the enemy decides to take the tactical advantage of that and push me would be up to them. Pray that I do not escape.

Platinum Spider, on 26 April 2016 - 01:36 AM, said:

I disagree. My 1e with 6SPL is running just fine, better even than before. Popping in and out of cover and then dashing away when you get focused is even better than before.

120 m range means very low heat bro. Of course you don't feel it. I prefer the 3M for that though. Higher cooldown.

GoldenFleece, on 26 April 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

No, they just rethought why the Locust which can mount the most firepower through energy hardpoints ALSO gets the biggest bonuses of all variants, being able to rival the 6xML Jenner.

It was senseless to begin with. Besides, being able to alpha 3 times with an all-energy loadout before the need to cool off is already questionable and nothing to sneeze at.

It has 20 armor. It competes with the suckiest jenner of all jenners. How is it senseless? HOW? My tiny brain cannot comprehend this.

Savage Wolf, on 26 April 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

They brought the DPS of the different mech classes closer to each other in MWO, because they all need to be worth the same. In TT an Atlas is worth more than a Locust so you either brought an Atlas or more Locusts. You can't use that logic in a game where the team size is fixed or we would all be running assaults.

No. They broke the locust, and the spider. Those are the only ones... Do you even care about balance? If you even think no, don't respond. I won't listen. All you will do is put 2 cents into a quarter machine.

[Omaha]

I dunno if they broke it, I still can come out on top score, and top 3 dmg in most games. If I play it right.

~ 1e 6med build.

I dont play the other variants, much so..... it's possible I guess.

Edited by Omaha, 28 April 2016 - 04:41 PM.

[jaxjace]

As strange as it is to say this the locust 1E was broken, you have been abusing a broken mech. Congrats.

Blame PGI and their infinite wisdom of slam nerfs and buffs with their god awful quirk system.

I doubt there will ever be a time when this is balanced out because its really easy to go into the patch notes without even playing and see which mechs will be good for what.

[Ragnahawk]

jaxjace, on 28 April 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

As strange as it is to say this the locust 1E was broken, you have been abusing a broken mech. Congrats.

Blame PGI and their infinite wisdom of slam nerfs and buffs with their god awful quirk system.

I doubt there will ever be a time when this is balanced out because its really easy to go into the patch notes without even playing and see which mechs will be good for what.

Thats like saying the ppc vindicator is broken. Since, i could easily turn out more damage in it with zero risk.