20 replies to this topic

[maniacos]

Ok, so you are on the attack or the deffense side.
You both have to collect information.
As soon as either side gets to 10 a dropship appears.

When you are defender, the dropship will be of the enemy team?
When you are at offensive side, the dropship will be your guy picking you up?

I don't get that mechanic, why would the enemy dropship come and pick the enemy group up when your side collected 10 information bits?

The other day I was in a match on a planet where we been defenders, I picked like 11 points while the opponent had like 3, the dropzone appeared close to my position. The rest of the team tried to keep the Stormcrows busy and got all killed while doing that. I was running towards the dropzone but the ship started shoting at me? I was puzzled about that fire and tried to get away when a streakcrow oneshot me. That is really confusing because why would the dropzone appear near me, after I collected 11 points with a ship that shots me?
That means, you could let the opponent do the job of collecting the points and just head to the dropzone to get away as soon as the defenders get 10 points?

A match before that on the same planet, I was like the last one in a Raven, chased by a Jenner and a Stormcrow. The rest of the team died fighting that Jenner and 3 Crows. I managed to leg the Crow and the Jenner who had his front open did miss a few of his SRM at me so I was able to kill him. Then with a legged Crow in my back, I had no problem getting away despite having like lost all armors and crit everywhere, collecting the last few points and hiding until the clock went to 0:05 when I scooted out into the square and won the match. Again that was on the same planet.

I find it's not really made clear what the objectives are. Yes they say stop them from escaping with the information, but why would I pick up information if my job was stopping them from picking it up and getting out? And why am I winning on the same planet in defense the other match when getting away with the dropship...?

Edited by maniacos, 24 April 2016 - 04:55 AM.

[EvilCatEars]

The game tells you what to do: in the lobby, at match launch and during the match (box in the left corner). If you doing something else that game tells you to, well its on you then. Planet you are dropipng on has nothing to do with what your match objectives are.

On the other hand, if your point was that defenders (in scouting or counterscouting) are being punished by collecting intel, then yes I agree with you. It was pointed out in couple of threads already, that defenders should have some benefits (or atleast not putting themselves at disadvantage) while collecting intel.

Edited by EvilCatEars, 24 April 2016 - 07:33 AM.

[maniacos]

EvilCatEars, on 24 April 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

On the other hand, if your point was that defenders (in scouting or counterscouting) are being punished by collecting intel, then yes I agree with you. It was pointed out in couple of threads already, that tefenders should have some benefits (or atleast not putting themselves at disadvantage) while collecting intel.

Yes that was my point. It just adds to the confusion that you always collect points and that the dropship appears as soon as either side collected 10. I still don't get why the attacker dropship appears, when the defender collected 10.

If there was a limited amount of 10 intel on the map and the defender collects all of them before the attacker did and so the attackers have to return home with empty hands, it would make sense. But then the match should be lost for the attacker and not won when they escaped after defense collected 10.
And at other matches I had like attacker and defenders with like 11 or 12 points on both sides.

As it is now, it will be always skirmish for the defenders because they have to catch up the attacking team and destroy them or at least keep them busy until the timer runs down (we won matches with that too, despide all defenders dead, luring the attacker far enough away from the dropzone so they didn't reach it in time).

Edited by maniacos, 24 April 2016 - 05:39 AM.

[Agent1190]

If you watch during the start of the match - the attackers (or "Gather Intel") arrive via a dropship. Defenders (or "Protect Intel") are already on the ground. That's why the attackers have to run to a dropship - they need to collect Intel and escape before they are killed. The defenders, who are the owners of the planet, don't need to leave the planet, they just need to protect what is theirs.

As mentioned earlier, attack/defend has no connection to who is the attacker or defender on the faction play map.

You asked what benefit collecting info has for the defenders? Here's a couple"
1. Deny intel to attackers. Really important when they are getting close to that Long Tom. You want the attackers leaving with as little as possible (or not leaving at all).
2. Force the dropship to appear. Attackers have 2 minutes to return to the drop zone once the defending team hits 11 intel points. If the defending team triggers the drop ship with 11 points, and the attacking team only has 2-3 points, even if they escape it's limiting the number of points they can gather. Call in their drop ship for them, set up an ambush to kill them. It might even throw the attacking team off balance because your are dictating the pace of the scouting mission.

[Zolaz]

Not sure what the mechanics are to stop someone from extracting in the drop zone. Do you have to keep the enemy from getting into the square? Can you do damage to them so that they can not extract?

[Kdogg788]

As soon as they hit the exit, it's game over for the defenders.

-k

[ice trey]

Personally, I think that once a certain number of posts are capped by one side, the evac location should be reported and the countdown timer begun...

... but if the scouts haven't captured enough of the posts once the countdown has started, they don't get info as to where the LZ is until they do.

For the scouts, even if the counter-scouts are all dead, if they don't make it to the LZ by the time the countdown reaches zero, counter-scouts win.

...at least, that's how I feel things should be.

[EvilCatEars]

Zolaz, on 24 April 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Not sure what the mechanics are to stop someone from extracting in the drop zone. Do you have to keep the enemy from getting into the square? Can you do damage to them so that they can not extract?

They are extrcted when at least one attacker is standing in the square and timer reaches zero. You can not prevent escape by shooting them.

[maniacos]

Agent1190, on 24 April 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

If you watch during the start of the match - the attackers (or "Gather Intel") arrive via a dropship. Defenders (or "Protect Intel") are already on the ground. That's why the attackers have to run to a dropship - they need to collect Intel and escape before they are killed. The defenders, who are the owners of the planet, don't need to leave the planet, they just need to protect what is theirs.

As mentioned earlier, attack/defend has no connection to who is the attacker or defender on the faction play map.

You asked what benefit collecting info has for the defenders? Here's a couple"
1. Deny intel to attackers. Really important when they are getting close to that Long Tom. You want the attackers leaving with as little as possible (or not leaving at all).
2. Force the dropship to appear. Attackers have 2 minutes to return to the drop zone once the defending team hits 11 intel points. If the defending team triggers the drop ship with 11 points, and the attacking team only has 2-3 points, even if they escape it's limiting the number of points they can gather. Call in their drop ship for them, set up an ambush to kill them. It might even throw the attacking team off balance because your are dictating the pace of the scouting mission.

As said, then the match should not be won by the attackers if they gater no or only some points and escaped with no or only a few points.

[vandalhooch]

maniacos, on 24 April 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

As said, then the match should not be won by the attackers if they gater no or only some points and escaped with no or only a few points.

Defenders job is to prevent them from escaping with ANY intelligence. If the defenders fail that mission then the attackers win.

[Herbert the Turbot]

The attackers trigger the drop ship by collecting 10 Intel points, there are only 20 Intel points so if the defenders collect 11 Intel points then it becomes impossible for the attackers to collect 10 Intel points so the drop ship triggers automatically.

This means that in most cases collecting 11 Intel points is disastrous for the defenders, however, if the defenders have already lost half their mechs, have next to no chance of wiping out the attackers, and the attackers have only collected a couple of Intel themselves, then it makes strategic sense for the defenders to trigger the drop ship and minimize their losses.

Ideally however, the defenders do want to collect Intel, and do gain a strategic advantage for every point of Intel they collect up to a maximum of 10 points. 10 points collected by the defenders does not trigger the drop ship, but as there are only 20 points on the map, the attackers then have to search the entire map in order to find 10 points themselves and trigger the drop ship. This means that the defenders have more time to intercept and destroy the attacking force.

It is therefore strategically advantageous for the defenders to collect Intel up to a maximum of 10 points, but the defenders should only ever collect 11 points if the battle is already as good as lost.

[maniacos]

vandalhooch, on 24 April 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

Defenders job is to prevent them from escaping with ANY intelligence. If the defenders fail that mission then the attackers win.

So for the attackers on clan side it's enough to get like 4 Scrows and collect one point then wait for the defenders to get the points full and get out. If one defender dares to fight he will be scrapped. Farming easy mode.

[Ibrandul Mike]

Like Herbert the Turbot said, you need 11 Intel as a Defender. And you could think of collecting intel as something like "downloading it and then delete it on the thingeny".

So you don´t get Intel as a Defender.

And for that aspect maniacos ... if you want to wait that long ok ... but the defender could get 10 points and wait near the 11th. The attackers have to wait or get that point. So it might really be quite effective to get 10 and wait by nr 11.

As for the conditions triggering the dropship:
1. Kill all Defenders
2. Get 10 Intel (because that is the job. Each piece more is just a bonus)
3. Defenders get 11 Intel, so you can´t complete your job (yeah, you call your mother to pick you up, because the other kids were mean and took all your candy)
4. The match ends in 3 minutes -> You get enough time get out before the game is ending

[Adamski]

maniacos, on 25 April 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

So for the attackers on clan side it's enough to get like 4 Scrows and collect one point then wait for the defenders to get the points full and get out. If one defender dares to fight he will be scrapped. Farming easy mode.

Yep, PGI should be removing the asymmetrical objectives in scout mode. It should be:

Attackers / Scouts: Gather intel on defender locations, then escape with intel.
Defenders / Patrol: Gather intel on attacker locations/routes, then escape with the intel

Remove the dropship, instead have Landing Zones (LZ) that are secured like Conquest / Domination from quickplay. Only AFTER you have secured the Landing Zone does the dropship arrive, and allows you to escape with the intel.

First to 11 intel gets a Landing Zone that they need to secure.

Edited by Adamski, 25 April 2016 - 05:03 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Probably mentioned above, but it's early and I don't want to read through everyone else's comments, but when you're defending and you collect info points, you're DENYING THE ENEMY INFO. In other words, they could potentially collect 20 info points if they were really on the ball, and every one the defenders grab is one less available to them.

So the attacking dropship showing up early (ie. when the DEFENDER has 11 cap points) is the attackers saying "there's not enough intel left to make this worthwhile - pick up our guys and get out of there).

[Ibrandul Mike]

Thanks Dawnstealer!

It is a typical scenario. There is a patrol, lets call them the defenders ... and there are scouts, who want to steal something. The patrol gets an information that there are bad guys in the area. So they hunt the bad guys and on their way destroy every bit of Intel they find, so that the bad guys can´t steal them. The bad guys try to steal the information.

Adamski sorry, but why? Do you think the same thing about Invasion and Counter Attack? Hey, take away the asymmetrical objectives. Give everyone a base. And then let them play lane defence! PGIs scenario makes much more sense than yours. Sorry to say that.

[Karl the Plumber]

maniacos, on 25 April 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

So for the attackers on clan side it's enough to get like 4 Scrows and collect one point then wait for the defenders to get the points full and get out. If one defender dares to fight he will be scrapped. Farming easy mode.

This is only right if you want to win but don't care about helping your team secure intel-based bonuses on invasion. Getting as much intel as possible helps get to the long tom ASAP, and the more intel you have the harder it is for defending scouts to whittle away at your intel lead. Everyone wants to nitpick this mode before they get used to it, but right now I think it's working alright and adds a ton of strategic value to CW. Tactics on the map are fun but now we have an entirely new strategic level of play that adds to the tactical situation for attackers and defenders. Give it a few weeks to see if it's balanced before you come to any conclusions.

[Adamski]

Ibrandul Mike, on 25 April 2016 - 05:19 AM, said:

Thanks Dawnstealer!

It is a typical scenario. There is a patrol, lets call them the defenders ... and there are scouts, who want to steal something. The patrol gets an information that there are bad guys in the area. So they hunt the bad guys and on their way destroy every bit of Intel they find, so that the bad guys can´t steal them. The bad guys try to steal the information.

Adamski sorry, but why? Do you think the same thing about Invasion and Counter Attack? Hey, take away the asymmetrical objectives. Give everyone a base. And then let them play lane defence! PGIs scenario makes much more sense than yours. Sorry to say that.

Invasion is about capturing planetary sectors, thus defending / capturing the base.

Scouting is about capturing data, thus defending / capturing data.

Forcing the defenders to run all over the map to deny Data, then try to find the dropship and stop the attackers from being picked up while being shot at by the attackers dropship, is plain stupid. This is especially painful for IS forces on the Clan border, since we don't get cXL engines, and have to choose between survivability and speed, while all the Clan mechs get a decent amount of both.

Also, in actual warfare, you want your patrols to report back on invader locations and movements, which is why the Defenders should actually be rewarded for collecting data, instead of being punished by having data collection reward your enemy with a 5th man Dropship.

[Ibrandul Mike]

At the beginning of the mission, operations is aware of the enemies. They give you the order to hunt them down. The defenders are awarded with XP and C-Bills. And the enemy can get less Intel.

They are only "punished" if they get 11 Intel. Until then it is no "punishment" and even then you deny the enemy Intel.

The defenders are not forced to collect any data at all. They can just try to chase down the enemy. And they might be successfull. So you could see it this way: If you think you don´t stand a chance, deny them as many Intel points as possible. Cut your losses. And when you are the attacker, gather more Intel than they got before you.
So yes ... Clan mechs may be more survivable but slower. Or they are less survivable and faster. Clans mix better so what? IS gets to choose for every mech if they want survivability or speed. Clans can´t choose. They are stuck with the speed they get. I think that is quite fair. Clan weapons do more damage and have a higher range, but get hotter. Oh, clan mechs have fewer quirks ... but that´s ok.

Let´s be honest. If our military is dumb enough to leave digital data lying around in canyons, don´t send reinforcements ... what do you expect? The attacker is obviously better at his job. And would you really prefer no dropship extraction for the scouts? Because then they would have to flee from the map border. Just run there and get away. Sounds better ... so much better.

[2fast2stompy]

maniacos, on 25 April 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

So for the attackers on clan side it's enough to get like 4 Scrows and collect one point then wait for the defenders to get the points full and get out. If one defender dares to fight he will be scrapped. Farming easy mode.

You understand that would take like 300 matches to get to 100% if you win every time, right?
And since the defenders then need to find the dropzone, you're not actually farming anything?
And that absolutely no one is going to queue up and wait for 5-10 minutes to do nothing and get 25k cbills?

Edited by 2fast2stompy, 25 April 2016 - 06:16 AM.