222 replies to this topic

[Malleus011]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

I'm curious, I see things like "Joining a unit is too much of a commitment" and "Joining a unit just isn't an option."

How? Why?

Since you asked, it's mostly about time - I normally get to play single matches in a session, when I get to play at all. Joining a TS server, engaging in the usual chat, and talking to the guys I know doesn't fit when I've got 15 minutes to catch a game. On top of that, what longer play sessions I have available aren't in a quiet environment which would allow use of a headset and TS. Nobody wants a team member who can't communicate, and it's hardly fair of me to inflict that on my unit.

That's not even getting in to being unable to regularly make practice sessions, etc.

[Randy Poffo]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

I'm curious, I see things like "Joining a unit is too much of a commitment" and "Joining a unit just isn't an option."

How? Why?

You're only going to get individual perspectives on this, but some people have mentioned their reasons here and I don't see why it's difficult to understand.

One person mentioned that the real investment of time and work that they weren't willing to put in is the time and effort it takes to figure out what kind of people you're joining up with, whether you like (or can even tolerate) them, and so on. Maybe you're not picky. But some people are, to varying degrees. Even a very easygoing person will be put off they discover that the unit they've joined has very loud people who dominate TS with "n***er" this and "n***er" that - and don't tell me those people don't exist in this game, I've heard them.

It's not a matter of being antisocial, it's hard to get to know people in stages *through the game itself* and that means you have to either blind-join units (buyer beware, and you may get stuck with a cost for breaking contract if you want out) or find some way outside of playing the game to get into them.

12 v 12 default game mode (in both quick play and CW) is also a culprit here. I am not a nub to this sort of game. I ran the largest and most successful clan in GC Netmech for a period of time. Despite the fact that everyone really wanted to be able to play games larger than 2v2, the 2v2 format actually played a large part - I think - in how the old netmech was able to work AT ALL and how units were able to thrive. You got to know people at a more personal level. You found some people that you liked as your wingman. You decided to form up units of your own, or join the units of the people you liked, and you knew what you were getting into because chat was a central point in the experience (and necessary to even start a game).

I'm not bringing this up as a criticism of PGI, I bring it up because it's something they could potentially leverage to their advantage. Small-unit maps and drop modes make a great way for people to get to know each other better and build connections (even if those drop modes are limited to only CW). And those personal connections become a gateway to getting more socially involved and playing the larger games. I fear, however, that any attempt to do this would be vehemently opposed to those who would fear that the initial stages would hurt their q times in 12 v 12, and who would rather see CW die a slow painful death.

[Livewyr]

xe N on, on 26 April 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

For players that are not playing competitive-oriented and play not on regular basis. What would the advantages? I would limiting me playing with a narrow number of people?

In nearly all massive online games, group forming outside clans/teams/units is quite common, even for end game content.

Advantage is that when you do play, you are playing with other people who you've met before the match started. (Even easier when you are playing with other people of a similar mindset.)

Something crazy might happen and you could end up with a complimentary team build.

Malleus011, on 26 April 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Since you asked, it's mostly about time - I normally get to play single matches in a session, when I get to play at all. Joining a TS server, engaging in the usual chat, and talking to the guys I know doesn't fit when I've got 15 minutes to catch a game. On top of that, what longer play sessions I have available aren't in a quiet environment which would allow use of a headset and TS. Nobody wants a team member who can't communicate, and it's hardly fair of me to inflict that on my unit.

That's not even getting in to being unable to regularly make practice sessions, etc.

1: I would argue that joining a TS with people on it would get you a full group far faster than trying to find a planet almost full.
2: I've only been in one unit that had practice sessions, and most of the leadership in that unit were scrubs more worried about paperwork, bureaucracy, and internet toughguy powerplays than actually doing anything impactful.

(That unit is now a large shell nobody cares about.)

The best units are laid back ones with similar skills.

[PFC Carsten]

This is typical PGI flawed logic. "Hey, solo queue is underpopulated, let's merge." instead of asking the right question "Why is it, that solo queue has few players?".

Kneejerk reactions like always, leading to bad decisions that require further patching, fiddling and will alienate more and more players. Maybe it's a good thing if MWO goes down, will make way for another, more competent developers to revive the franchise.

[D V Devnull]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

I'm curious, I see things like "Joining a unit is too much of a commitment" and "Joining a unit just isn't an option."

How? Why?

You ask, but are you really ready for the answer? It ranges across many different things and people. Family, Friends, Relationships, School, Work, and many other things all in Real Life. For many who have their priorities straight, there simply will never be the time to handle being part of a Unit, or even to commit to something super-long-term. Other things, and more than I could possibly count, including taking good care of others, are in the way in Real Life. Unlike you, there are many who only get a once-in-a-while chance to play a round or two of Faction Warfare at a time, bundled alongside a small handful of less than five Quick Play rounds. Many are even aware they don't possess Unit-Level Skills, and know that they need to develop into better players first before joining Units, if they're ever able to. Have you ever heard the phrase "You can't force a Square Peg into a Round Hole?", because trying to force everyone to join a Unit is just like that. Some people, their skill set, and their Real Life, simply don't fit down that path. Once you learn that, you gain a greater respect of the players in the MWO Community around you. Understand that not everyone is best at grouping up, and then work with those who don't group well to their strengths, and therefore your own success.

Maybe if PGI would realize this as well, none of this madness would have ever occurred.

~D. V. "Until a time when PGI quits messing up, my presence on the battlefield will be unnecessary." Devnull

[ThatGuy539]

Prosperity Park, on 26 April 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

My last Faction Play match resulted in me inflicting 2800 damage and 11 kills.

Sorry for dragging you all down and ruining your Unit games with my incompetence as a Solo PUG player.

Awesome!

I got 14 kills against a group that had a number of guys from one of the top tier units a few weeks back in a solo game. Can't remember the damage, but I'm sure it was lower. We still lost, but that was fun.

[Greenburg Godzillas]

The last time I tried to join a unit that was billed as a fun, laid back unit, it had skill requirements and mech build requirements.

Okay, I'm not a great MWO player, but I'm trying to get better in the limited free time that I have. How do I improve without being in a team or do I just not play FW until I'm arbitrarily good enough?

Secondly, I get real bored if Complimentary builds mean everyone use the 6 large laser Stalker and second use the large laser Quickdraw. I know that not every team does that, but it happens... a lot.


----------------------------

If you want to push people to groups, make it easier to find them. I don' like scouring a faction board for the group who happened to be accepting players.

Or make Loyal faction stock units that anyone can join (1st Lyran Guard, Genosha,ect.). Of course, then what's the difference between a PUG drop and a group that accepts everyone?

[AngrySpartan]

Fastwind, on 26 April 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

If PGI rly wanted to FIX CW and make it a real thing
they would simply go and tie the PUG queue ((solo and grp) QUICK PLAY,with all it's gamemodes,assault,skirmish,domination,conquest)) into CW

Not necessarily. It is enough to make CW more attractive than QP for casual solo players. And to do that it is required to give them:
- decent introduction to CW (training ground)
- decent rewards and reasons to come back(daily missions, streakwins payoff, etc.)
- no artificial limitations (1-man units, freelancers can join only by call-to-arms, etc.)
- comfortable matchmaking to sharken their skill (no stomps by 12 man, separate queue, etc.)
and finally some sense of progress and achievement (read: career)!

PGI tried it in CW3, yet they made it their usual way - with lots of nonsense concepts and flawed mechanics.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 26 April 2016 - 01:47 PM.

[Malleus011]

Perhaps the best way to handle the whole 'solo' thing would be to simply make House Davion a 'unit'. Every Loyalist player is in that 'Unit' and when we join a match, it puts us into whatever CW match we're needed. Of course we'd need to port over a matchmaker. When your faction takes a world, every loyalist active in the last 30 days gets a little share of the rewards.

Let the 'units' we currently have (that want 'hardcore' competitive play) go Merc, have contracts, and dispense with a matchmaker. There are no Freelancers, pick a faction when you login the first time, or you are defaulted to the lowest population IS faction and can choose freely the first time.

That kind of system would let us dump non-CW matches entirely.

[Morggo]

Or, as me and others have tossed around... make one fairly straightforward addition...

1. Limit the actual, map affecting FW to Units and Faction Groups.
done.

2. Have the following options in the "non-unit" side of MWO

A. Quick Play (already exists - 24 solo pugs mashing it up)
B. Group Queue (already exists - various sized groups 2 - 11 in size mashing it up)
C. Reward Play (or whatever sounds cool and groovy)
This is simply taking FW over to the non FW side of the house. Essentially a new mode of sorts, or a third queue on the solo side. It would just be FW pug drops, no units (hell, put a simple filter to prevent sync drops. no more than x number of the same tags or whatever eliminates Russ' fear of unit solo sync dropping). Add in the ability to earn rewards like mechbays and items and stuff so FW doesn't get to be the elitest rewards only club. Done. Easy. 24 pilots pug dropping, earning rewards, no commitments, no fuss, new maps, and access to use the drop deck concept.

I've suggested it, others have suggested it, seems simple way to solve it. But I'm happy to hear feedback where it has flaws as always.


EDIT: just occurred to me, this sort of addresses, in a way, the requests to have a "respawn" type play mode. No, it's not true respawn, but it does give you essentially 4 lives. So maybe this even addresses, at least to an extent, other issues out there as well... *shrugs*

Edited by Morggo, 26 April 2016 - 02:10 PM.

[Randy Poffo]

AngrySpartan, on 26 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Not necessarily. It is enough to make CW more attractive than QP for casual solo players. And to do that it is required to give them:
- decent introduction to CW (training ground)
- decent rewards and reasons to come back(daily missions, streakwins payoff, etc.)
- no artificial limitations (1-man units, freelancers can join only by call-to-arms, etc.)
- comfortable matchmaking to sharken their skill (no stomps by 12 man, separate queue, etc.)
and finally some sense of progress and achievement (read: career)!

PGI tried it in CW3, yet they made it their usual way - with lots of nonsense concepts and flawed mechanics.

Thing is I don't think the fundamental gap here - at least not for everyone - is a matter of individual skill. Some solo pilots are fine or even very good when it comes to individual skill. The unavoidable and fundamental reason that pugs vs. organized tend to turn into such stomps is teamwork. If you take 24 pilots with absolutely equal skill and mechs, and throw them into a match where 12 of them are organized and have a pre-prepared plan and the other 12 do not know each other and communicate only through in-game voip, the latter group will get straight up pooped on.

The need or desire to maintain a high individual score will also interfere with the pug group's inclination to make decisions that might involve personal sacrifice (even if they know that the correct thing to do would be to make that sacrifice), and the expectation that everyone else is going to be playing that way tends to undermine even the *attempt* to play with teamwork. After enough iterations where that becomes the expectation, the team play of the solo players will actually become *worse*. I think we've actually observed this over time in phase 2. Playing in pugs vs organized units, over time, actually degrades their play rather than making it better; perhaps it's just my opinion but I could swear that pugs played much better closer to the beginning of phase 2 than they did at the end.

[Livewyr]

Fastwind, on 26 April 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

There is a big reason why freelancers are freelancers
they don't want to commit to the factions that get dictated by a unit or to the people that are in those units

Interesting complaint. If only there was a workaround, like going to a unit that was in the faction you desired, or starting a unit and having likeminded people joining you.

Fastwind, on 26 April 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

solo players want commit to that
and they are the biggest grp of players in this game
yet get kicked out of CW
absolute fail

Interesting, considering they didn't warrant a second queue, and before you go ahead and blame rewards, lack of rewards doesn't account for not having THAT many solos. They weren't getting them before, why would they be concerned now? (Hell, how many of them do you think even knew they weren't getting the rewards that units were? Most people don't check forums...)

There just aren't that many solos.

Fastwind, on 26 April 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

If PGI rly wanted to FIX CW and make it a real thing
they would simply go and tie the PUG queue ((solo and grp) QUICK PLAY,with all it's gamemodes,assault,skirmish,domination,conquest)) into CW
But i guess that would be to fair and logic

If you're talking about putting quickplay matches as affecting Faction Warfare, you're dreadfully mistaken. You would lose all the people who want to affect the map, as the results of their efforts would be randomized by newbies in trial mechs, people testing funny builds, and the general give-no-****s attitude that comes with quickplay.

[MrKvola]

I play MWO mostly only casually. Not committing to much, logging on when I can and doing a few drops.

The unit I am in has over 350 members. We have whole REGIMENTS of casual players. The only requirement so far was to log in to the unit webpage at least once in 3 months. A real commitment right there. (Although I have to admit that this was shortened to 1 month due to the mistaken PGI policy of reducing unit sizes for all the wrong reasons). We have members that were discharged for being AWOL. A lot come back once their situation changes, often after many months, and are welcomed. It does not matter what happens, it is just a game. And if life happens to get to you, it takes precedence.

Nobody forces you to do anything. Want to pug it? Feel free. Want to group up? Ask in Unit chat or hop on to TeamSpeak (Yes, it does make communication easier. Still you can pretend your mic is broken and not speak, just listen. Or not.) More often than not you find running groups that take anybody.

Want to drop with casuals? Are there any? They have a spot? Yay, good to go. Have a few drops with the comp team? Is any of them dropping? Unless there was something special (RL or whatnot) I did not have an issue to join.

Fine. Got into a drop? Yay! now how about having some of the best Drop Commanders available to guide the group. Or if you are up to it, you could be one.

What do you gain aside from all that? Knowledge. Lots. Friendly help and advice. Comrades in arms and friends even. Perhaps an introduction to different games. Intel updates and more...

Also some people organized in units are jerks. As well as there are a lot such solo players. Whenever we drop in less than a 12man we try to coordinate with pugs we get. Either via chat or ingame VoIP. Often we would invite completely random players to our TeamSpeak if they were willing to come. And pick them up in LFG post match, if they were the same faction. Nobody asks pugs to tank, move in front or even do anything else than stick with us and try to contribute. The most taxing requests would be for players in light 'mechs to go scout out a gate. On the flipside we often see pugs that just say they won't take commands or advice and do their own thing. And basically roll out there and suicide. Once you have 2 or 3 folks like that on your team it makes the match a pain (real life experience right there).

As for those that do not wish to be bound to a single faction, we actually have another affiliated unit which consists of players that play different factions all the time. Same rules apply.

Frankly I do not understand this unit and teamplay hate. And somehow I feel most of you oppose something you never tried or tried with the wrong kind of people.

And especially for D V Devnull: we have a large number of players like yourself. Here and there some appear for a game or two. And then nobody sees them for a month. Everybody has fun. We possibly win. Or lose. Or get our teeth completely kicked in. Point being it is just overall a better experience with other people around. Plus you get your matches much faster if there is a group going... The point about having real life etc. is a little ridiculous - because we all have that. It is just how you balance things.

And no, if you don't want to join a group just because you don't want to join is not the same as posting a wall of text explaining that you have a real life. Because that's just an excuse for yourself to stay in your comfort zone. A lot of people do that.

[Randy Poffo]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

There just aren't that many solos.

See, thing is you don't actually believe this. Nor do any of the people who complained so bitterly about solo Q being introduced.

If there were an insignificant number of solo players then losing those people wouldn't significantly affect your q times in 12 v 12. You wouldn't notice the loss, and you certainly wouldn't take the time to complain so bitterly about it.

And it is laughable if you expect anyone to believe that you really want those solo players out of CW entirely. If that were the case then all those people, all along, would have been arguing to remove the ability of solo players to even attempt CW. Make joining a unit necessary before you can even press the "Faction Play" button. Not a big clamor for that from a lot of people, was there? And why do you suppose that is?

[Tuebor]

the problem was not with solo vs unit. the problem was solo vs grouped. im a member of the 8th Davion Guard. but none of my unit is ever on when i am. so i play solo. being in a unit is great if your playing as a group. but 12 PUGs playing against an organized group is asking to get slaughtered . the separation idea was a great idea. but they separated the wrong things. PUGs play PUGs. groups play groups.

[Jables McBarty]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

Interesting, considering they didn't warrant a second queue, and before you go ahead and blame rewards, lack of rewards doesn't account for not having THAT many solos. They weren't getting them before, why would they be concerned now? (Hell, how many of them do you think even knew they weren't getting the rewards that units were? Most people don't check forums...)

There just aren't that many solos.

????????????
???????????
???????
??????????

Okay...so not sure why I'm still responding to you but...

There was a one-week trial period. So not really enough time to get everyone involved (I just came off a 6-week hiatus)

Apparently Freelancer rewards sucked, so some people created 1-man units so they could play as Mercs. (I'm already in a small friend-based unit, so I can't speak to this personally)

Easier to match in 4v4, so lots of people flooded that queue...

...I can't even

just

please

stop

just stop.

[MovinTarget]

I am in a unit, but the original attraction to this game was that i could drop on, play 15 minutes and get out if need be... a lot of people need this flexibility and being in a unit starts to feel like an additionsl obligation...

[AngrySpartan]

MrKvola, on 26 April 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

Frankly I do not understand this unit and teamplay hate. And somehow I feel most of you oppose something you never tried or tried with the wrong kind of people.
...
And no, if you don't want to join a group just because you don't want to join is not the same as posting a wall of text explaining that you have a real life. Because that's just an excuse for yourself to stay in your comfort zone. A lot of people do that.

There is no hate to unit play whatsoever. There is comfort zone for unit players and the same for solo players. Face it. No discussions on these forums will change it. Period.

Both groups should exist and should be satisfied. Thing is we already saw what happens if you mash up 12-man premades with solo players in single queue. That didn't worked out in CW3, no reasons it will in CW3.

Randy Poffo, on 26 April 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

Thing is I don't think the fundamental gap here - at least not for everyone - is a matter of individual skill. Some solo pilots are fine or even very good when it comes to individual skill. The unavoidable and fundamental reason that pugs vs. organized tend to turn into such stomps is teamwork. If you take 24 pilots with absolutely equal skill and mechs, and throw them into a match where 12 of them are organized and have a pre-prepared plan and the other 12 do not know each other and communicate only through in-game voip, the latter group will get straight up pooped on.

My Tukkaid 1 and 2 experience says everything possible. Though I mostly agree what you saying, CW isn't fundamentaly different from QP in terms of teamwork, it's not rocket science. Good players play good no matter if it is a CW or QP, they are willing to tank for you in QP or support your push. Clueless PUGs are clueless PUGs anyway.

BTW That is why there is such need in solid training grounds for CW, and more tips for the new players.

There is a good topic on this forum regarding that, read 1st post:
http://mwomercs.com/...tting-cw-queue/

Edited by AngrySpartan, 26 April 2016 - 02:32 PM.

[Randy Poffo]

MrKvola, on 26 April 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

And especially for D V Devnull: we have a large number of players like yourself. Here and there some appear for a game or two. And then nobody sees them for a month. Everybody has fun. We possibly win. Or lose. Or get our teeth completely kicked in. Point being it is just overall a better experience with other people around. Plus you get your matches much faster if there is a group going... The point about having real life etc. is a little ridiculous - because we all have that. It is just how you balance things.

And no, if you don't want to join a group just because you don't want to join is not the same as posting a wall of text explaining that you have a real life. Because that's just an excuse for yourself to stay in your comfort zone. A lot of people do that.

I don't feel like you're really listening to where these people are coming from. I detect almost no "hate" for the idea of joining units.

The "commitment" thing is a little bit more complicated for some people. Consider what it takes to get any benefit out of joining a unit, putting all matters of personality etc. aside.

If you join a unit and then just q by yourself anyway, that makes no difference at all. The point is to drop as a group. Well, ok then. Now, can you be on to drop at the times that your unit does? Often times that's a sort of commitment that people can't make - the time they have free for recreation may simply not conform to any type of regular schedule.

If the unit is large enough then they will end up having full groups. And here's what a number of other people were trying to express: if they don't have the time to commit to train with the unit and learn their tactics and so forth, how can they really ask for someone else to sit out of that group to let them in for that one game in a day that they might have time to play? They can't, unless they're selfish, and so they'd end up just dropping solo or with one or two people anyway, so for them what's the point?

You may have a point that there are units out there that can accommodate players like that. But it's a non-trivial matter to actually find them. And anyone who's ever played in a "social" guild in WoW will know that you're rolling the dice if you join one, and even a group that looks like a no-lose situation can turn into bullsh*t and headaches real quick. I don't know that their concerns are as easily answered as you seem to think.

[Elendil]

Why not just have options people can set when queuing up for a FW match?

Click one button to join all queues for a planet, check or uncheck the solo/group and scouting/invasion checkboxes, and it drops you into any match that meets your criteria.

And units should not be the same thing as groups. Players in units should be able to queue for solo matches if they aren't grouped.

Also, anyone who joins a a queue solo (FW or quick match) should get higher individual rewards than group players, since it's much harder and riskier solo. That would encourage more solo players, which would make match making much faster across the board.

Edited by Elendil, 26 April 2016 - 02:49 PM.