222 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

I approve. This patch sets out to fix problems and does it rather than bandaging and ignoring the cause of problems. I'm proud of you pgi.

[K19]

Now living. I wonder when will repair the AMS vs Streaks ?? And the speed of the mech arms vs. When they will be repaired because with the new mod Fight 4 vs 4 can not use all tactics to technology mech not work right. So to get the most take advantage of all the factors in the fight. Strength, and more innovations plz When is the X weapons ??

[JaxRiot]

WarHippy, on 27 April 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

It failed in their goal, but I don't see it as them purposefully setting it up to fail. Subtle difference I suppose, but I do see the wisdom in what they were trying for rather than what they ended up with.

I agree that it failed, and although Im not sure if they purposefully set it up to fail, they sure didnt give it a chance to succeed.

How is 8 days of a buggy launch that didnt even span 2 weekends enough time to call something a success or a failure?

Like the Probation period bug that didnt let people advance in their matches no matter how many matches they were playing. There were people who stopped playing because of that bug and were waiting for a fix.

I had that probation period bug too and was stuck at '9 Matches Remaining' for days until I decided to experiment with the Unit ques and made a one man unit. The bug seemed to fix itself after I dumped my unit tags.

If that bug (along with the Drop Deck bug) had been fixed, would those returning players been enough to have made a difference?

Or how about the one man Mercs that had to be in a Unit to be a Merc? Would they have stayed in the Unit que as a PUG after a couple of weeks when their contracts expired?

We will never know the answer to those questions now because they looked at (what is in my mind) twisted and probably not very accurate numbers.

So ya, they may not have set out to sabotage it, but they definitely let it fail. Its like they didnt even try.

Maybe they never wanted it to succeed

Edited by JaxRiot, 28 April 2016 - 05:35 AM.

[ThatGuy539]

There aren't enough people playing to get FW working the way we would ideally want.

Personally I would rather have someone to play against in it, than next to no one and huge wait times. Even if that means getting rolled, or doing the rolling once in a while.

So as it is now I think they should keep everyone together (solos, units, pugs).


I really think adding a leader role would be a big step in the right direction with what we have to work with.
The biggest problem with PUGS and solos is lack of coordination.

I've seen units that were made up of people who were obviously inexperienced but who did okay because they had some kind of coordination.

If we add a leader role, then even solos and PUGs will get some benefit from it, at least some of the time. Which should increase the fun-factor of the game for new and experience players and group.

One person who's only job is to coordinate for their team.

Will the leaders always be good...no.
Will people always follow their commands...no.

However on the whole I think it would still be a huge improvement for FW.

Some people would be pretty good at it too...and some entertaining as well. (PanzerMagier for example. )

[Darwins Dog]

Randy Poffo, on 27 April 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

As near as I can tell the reasoning goes something like this (with background):

Unit Players: "Man I hate having solo players in our drops, they don't know what they're doing and they're no challenge to beat."

Solo Players: "Yeah we are not enjoying this experience either."

PGI: (after some years of consideration) "Hmm, well perhaps if I split the q's so that solo players can choose not to drop with you unit guys, I can solve both of your problems."

Unit Players: "WTF ARE YOU DOING THIS IS THE WORST IDEA EVER IF YOU ALLOW THE SEALS A CHOICE THEN THEY WON'T DROP WITH US!!!"

PGI: "Wait I thought you didn't want them to, if you'd just told me that you wanted them in your matches I could have-"

Unit Players: "THE FIRST RULE OF SEAL CLUB IS YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT SEALS. BESIDES THERE ARE NOT MANY SOLO PLAYERS ANYWAY, AND ALSO THERE ARE SO MANY SOLO PLAYERS THAT Q'S WILL GRIND TO A HALT WITHOUT THEM."

PGI: "OK well I guess we shouldn't pursue this any further."

Unit Players: "Man I hate having solo players in our drops, they don't know what they're doing and they're no challenge to beat."

Solo Players: "Yeah we are not enjoying this experience either."

Can we at least acknowledge that Solo players and unit players are not monolithic entities that all share the same opinions? It's not like we have some secret TS server where we meet to discuss our sinister plans. Actually most of them are public and players not with a unit are actively encouraged to pop in for the evening.

One of the main arguments that I've seen against splitting the queues is population and wait times. I've read posts from lots of people (as you might say, the ENTIRE solo player population) saying that they don't play CW/FW/FP because it takes too long to find a match. Splitting the population only makes wait times longer for everyone.

The reason for lopsided matches and much of the pugs vs. premades tension is that there was previously no incentive for units to defend, so they spent most of their time attacking. If you defend and no one attacks, you just wait. If you attack and no one defends, then at least you get ghost drops which are worth ~300,000 each (depending on the contract). Now you add in the CtA mechanic and they are drawing in random people to defend the planets, and there you go. Organized team vs. a roll of the dice. Maybe they have an experienced leader, maybe they have 5 brand new players in trial mechs who clicked a flashing button.

I'm not arguing that the split did or didn't help (seems like it didn't, but not really enough time to say), I'm just tired of seeing all unit members lumped into one group. Every unit has different motivations and goals (as do the individual players in those units). I've never heard anyone actually say they want more seals to club (not even in our top-secret comlinks ).

[Desintegrator]

Nice - more MC for Faction play !

[JaxRiot]

Darwins Dog, on 28 April 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

Can we at least acknowledge that Solo players and unit players are not monolithic entities that all share the same opinions? It's not like we have some secret TS server where we meet to discuss our sinister plans. Actually most of them are public and players not with a unit are actively encouraged to pop in for the evening.

One of the main arguments that I've seen against splitting the queues is population and wait times. I've read posts from lots of people (as you might say, the ENTIRE solo player population) saying that they don't play CW/FW/FP because it takes too long to find a match. Splitting the population only makes wait times longer for everyone.

The reason for lopsided matches and much of the pugs vs. premades tension is that there was previously no incentive for units to defend, so they spent most of their time attacking. If you defend and no one attacks, you just wait. If you attack and no one defends, then at least you get ghost drops which are worth ~300,000 each (depending on the contract). Now you add in the CtA mechanic and they are drawing in random people to defend the planets, and there you go. Organized team vs. a roll of the dice. Maybe they have an experienced leader, maybe they have 5 brand new players in trial mechs who clicked a flashing button.

I'm not arguing that the split did or didn't help (seems like it didn't, but not really enough time to say), I'm just tired of seeing all unit members lumped into one group. Every unit has different motivations and goals (as do the individual players in those units). I've never heard anyone actually say they want more seals to club (not even in our top-secret comlinks ).

But the thing is that you wont see too many Units being against the merge because even though all of the Units have varying opinions they wont oppose it because it still means more matches for them and more easy wins against PUGs.

Even the Units that openly say that they dont like stomping PUGs/Solos wont try to stop it.

Which in the end means easier matches, more C-Bills, more MC and more LP for the Units

But for the Solo/Pugs it just means more stomps and less C-Bills, Less MC, and Less LP.

I suspect that even with the new narrower attack lanes the new FW will just return to the way the old CW was after this new wears off and the pugs and solos begin avoiding it again because spending all of that time in a match just to get stomped and earn less than they would in QP just isnt worth it.

In CW phase 2 most of the time there was only one or two planets being attacked/defended anyway so reducing the attack lanes just gets rid of all those planets that were not being used anyway.

We will probably just end up with a stream lined Phase 2 with 4x4 added in

Edited by JaxRiot, 28 April 2016 - 07:01 AM.

[Darwins Dog]

JaxRiot, on 28 April 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

But the thing is that you wont see too many Units being against the merge because even though all of the Units have varying opinions they wont oppose it because it still means more matches for them and more easy wins against PUGs.

Even the Units that openly say that they dont like stomping PUGs/Solos wont try to stop it.

Which in the end means easier matches, more C-Bills, more MC and more LP for the Units

But for the Solo/Pugs it just means more stomps and less C-Bills, Less MC, and Less LP.

I suspect that even with the new narrower attack lanes the new FW will just return to the way the old CW was after this new wears off and the pugs and solos begin avoiding it again because spending all of that time in a match just to get stomped and earn less than they would in QP just isnt worth it.

In CW phase 2 most of the time there was only one or two planets being attacked/defended anyway so reducing the attack lanes just gets rid of all those planets that were not being used anyway.

We will probably just end up with a stream lined Phase 2 with 4x4 added in

Right, units have varying opinions, but they all have the same opinion. Thanks for clearing that up.

I know that in a lot of cases units don't oppose the merge because things haven't changed all that much for us. Matches are a bit slower to form (fewer individual players in the queue to fill out off sized teams), but teamwork and coordination has slightly improved (fewer players who flat out refuse to follow a plan).

I know in my unit we try to stop pug stomps by coordinating with any pug players on our team (especially when we have less than 6 players on the team). We tell them our plans, and call targets on in-game voip. We encounter many players who are great teammates. We also encounter players who seem to deliberately do the opposite of the team, and refuse to coordinate.

Another way we combat stomps is by having open recruiting and very low requirements/expectations of our members; Follow the plan, shoot the called target, and be a cool person. That brings up another reason why many units opposed the split. That was one of the more effective ways to recruit new members. If they were on our team and had a good experience, we would invite them to join, and that provided more than a few new recruits. There are lots of 1-man units out there, but there's no way to tell which ones they are, and it's considered extremely rude to try to recruit a member from another unit.

The split certainly could have been handled better, but I don't know if it would have made a difference. Fewer attack lanes for solo CW would at least concentrate players, but then you restrict the ability to fight specific factions. It also doesn't make sense for two groups who can never fight each other to be fighting over the same planet. Maybe have a separate map? I don't know the solution.

tl:dr - From what I've read the split has made several things worse for FW without really improving anything.

[zudukai]

when are we getting the adder's camo fixed? official statement?

what about the catapult's geo?

also, what about a Mini-map notification for the Long tom?

[JaxRiot]

Darwins Dog, on 28 April 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Right, units have varying opinions, but they all have the same opinion. Thanks for clearing that up.

Its true. Despite varying opinions regarding PUG stomps most (note: I didnt say All) Units wont oppose a merge because it still benefits them in the end.

Darwins Dog, on 28 April 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

I know that in a lot of cases units don't oppose the merge because things haven't changed all that much for us. Matches are a bit slower to form (fewer individual players in the queue to fill out off sized teams), but teamwork and coordination has slightly improved (fewer players who flat out refuse to follow a plan).

You are saying that you're not opposed to a merge because nothing has changed for your unit and it helps the que a bit anyway.

So there again, regardless of your opinion regarding Pug vs Units (for or against or indifferent), you dont oppose it because it doesnt really affect you adversely and even helps with ques a bit for your drops.

Either way, the merge helps you so you dont oppose it. Which is the point I was trying to make.

Edfit- Just wanted to say that it doesnt make you a bad guy or Units evil. Units/PreMades just want to play too and if throwing Solos/Pugs in with Units/PreMades helps to get more games for them then they will take it.

Its just a shame that it usually doesnt make for a very fun experience for Pugs/Solos unless they happen to be lucky enough to be filler for a Unit/Premade or hopefully have their opponents be another PUG group.

Darwins Dog, on 28 April 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

The split certainly could have been handled better, but I don't know if it would have made a difference. Fewer attack lanes for solo CW would at least concentrate players, but then you restrict the ability to fight specific factions. It also doesn't make sense for two groups who can never fight each other to be fighting over the same planet. Maybe have a separate map? I don't know the solution.

tl:dr - From what I've read the split has made several things worse for FW without really improving anything.

Ya I agree with you there. It definitely could have been handled better.

I actually thought it was going to go off much better than it did or they would have at least gave it a fighting chance for a month or two instead of just pulling the plug after a week of a buggered up and buggy launch.

I did see some people in the Faction forums suggest that Factions that have alliances share the same attack lanes in order to consolidate the ques a bit. Which I thought was a great idea. Doubt PGI will do it though

Edited by JaxRiot, 28 April 2016 - 10:15 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

Darwins Dog, on 28 April 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

One of the main arguments that I've seen against splitting the queues is population and wait times. I've read posts from lots of people (as you might say, the ENTIRE solo player population) saying that they don't play CW/FW/FP because it takes too long to find a match. Splitting the population only makes wait times longer for everyone.

A minor point but I think it is important, is that the Freelancer career dynamic compounds the wait times. There may be 100 freelancers in the solo queue, but until a Loyalist queues up they can't get in.

A lot of the complaints are about wait times, yes, but the solution isn't just to re-merge the queues. There are other ways to fix these problems, and that's what a lot of the discussion in this thread is about.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Levon K, on 28 April 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

You guys are clearly not getting it.

What I got from your description was making QP the same thing as FW...which is a terrible idea.

Levon K, on 28 April 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

They need to give players the option of participating in CW through the Quick Play mode.

They already have that. They've had that from Day 1...though back then, you had to pick your faction first... but once you did, you would get a Call to Arms (CtA) on any matches your faction was able to participate in. Unfortunately, it was that very thing that invoked so much rage from the units who didn't want a bunch of people who had no clue what FW (then CW) actually was (and so ran in all Trial mechs) and/or didn't want to play as a team...which prompted the queue splitting in the first place!

And that option of participating at a whim exists even now because everyone defaults as a Freelancer. Freelancers will get a CtA if there is *ANY* match that requires warm bodies to fill slots if the matchmaker has been running for more than 3-5 minutes. They don't have to join a unit, pick a faction or anything. They just have to be on the main screen (looking at/through their mechs, in the mech lab, whatever) and when the CtA pops up, hit 'Accept'.

Darwins Dog, on 28 April 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

One of the main arguments that I've seen against splitting the queues is population and wait times. I've read posts from lots of people (as you might say, the ENTIRE solo player population) saying that they don't play CW/FW/FP because it takes too long to find a match. Splitting the population only makes wait times longer for everyone.

That was always an argument against splitting the queues from the more reasonable people (and PGI). Unfortunately, reasonable people don't yell loud enough or frequently enough.

Darwins Dog, on 28 April 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

The reason for lopsided matches and much of the pugs vs. premades tension is that there was previously no incentive for units to defend, so they spent most of their time attacking. If you defend and no one attacks, you just wait. If you attack and no one defends, then at least you get ghost drops which are worth ~300,000 each (depending on the contract). Now you add in the CtA mechanic and they are drawing in random people to defend the planets, and there you go. Organized team vs. a roll of the dice. Maybe they have an experienced leader, maybe they have 5 brand new players in trial mechs who clicked a flashing button.

Yes, before there was no incentive for a unit to actually defend the worlds they took. Now, I can only assume that due to the MC rewards and how they are handed out this is no longer the case.

However, the CtA mechanic was always present, and it's what drug in so many 'filthy casuals' into the Community Seal-Clubbing before...because people would get the CtA for whatever faction they signed up for and click on the button because, reasons. This has not changed really, except that the CtA won't go out to Freelancers (that is, people who aren't Loyalist or have a unit) as frequently.

Darwins Dog, on 28 April 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

I'm not arguing that the split did or didn't help (seems like it didn't, but not really enough time to say), I'm just tired of seeing all unit members lumped into one group. Every unit has different motivations and goals (as do the individual players in those units). I've never heard anyone actually say they want more seals to club (not even in our top-secret comlinks ).

It is very easy to lump unit players into one group because regardless of the differences between the different units and the players of those units, is that they all share one thing in common: they're in a unit. While different units do have different goals and motivations, the fact that they tend to be more organized than your typical Quick-Play group means that they are going to have a leg up on a group of solos as a general thing.

It's funny though, because I have never heard any units or individuals who are part of a unit ever talk about wanting to go seal-clubbing. Okay, not in any serious manner at any rate. By and large, they just wanted Solos to be more team-oriented and be willing to join and work with a group.

Edited by AnimeFreak40K, 28 April 2016 - 12:54 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

JaxRiot, on 28 April 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Its true. Despite varying opinions regarding PUG stomps most (note: I didnt say All) Units wont oppose a merge because it still benefits them in the end.

Most units won't oppose a merge, because what's the point.
When do PGI listen to anyone? let alone read their own forums to take note of the opposition.

Opposing PGI's plans has always fallen on deaf ears, even when the complainants numbered thousands.

[Koniving]

ThatGuy539, on 28 April 2016 - 06:16 AM, said:

Some people would be pretty good at it too...and some entertaining as well. (PanzerMagier for example. )

"The General" PanzerMagier totally made that video epic. Like one of the comments says, I would love to hear that voice in a tutorial.

Edit:
PanzerMagier just got himself a character named after him in a megamek campaign I'm doing.

Currently Major Panzer Magier (admittedly just renamed him) is the leading man in a mechanized tracked SRM platoon and ground commander.

Edited by Koniving, 28 April 2016 - 03:27 PM.

[Zaptiah]

So i just played the newest hot fix and ... what an utterly craptactular pile of rubbish.

Freelancers still got nothing. nada. zip. zilch. not a bloody thing. Thanks PGI for telling us to go fly a kite. Message received.

Someone please tell me why I shouldn't just uninstall this garbage? The game was sooo fun before this patch. not perfect but lots and lots of fun. I had something to work for. I had a reason to work through the god awful worst grind ever in a free to play. I had a reason to think about paying for the horrifically overpriced premium content. but now? I HAVE to join a unit or I HAVE to become a loyalist. I WILL NOT. not ever will I join a unit or clan or merc or company or what ever. This leaves me with only QP ... with nothing to fight for whats the point? no rewards ... no loyalty points. nothing. Just played 3 scout matchs. And guess what I got ? Nothing. Not enough cbills to be worth playing the game mode. I get more in QP ... except QP is boring me to tears at this point. I get more in QP when I fail utterly than you do from CW now. I never did get an invasion match. this is just so broken. rerwards are gone ... grind has gone up ... and a whole game mode (CW) that is clearly being made off limits for casual / freelance type players like myself. broken ...

[Genoc1br]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, what exactly were you looking for?


I'll admit, I have zero sympathy for soloists in Faction warfare in a team game. They drag everyone down when facing a team.
Solos will never work as well with their team mates as people in a group, or especially people in a unit. It simply doesn't work. (Instant communication, prior willingness to work as a team, complementary builds, etc...)

It wouldn't bother me so much, except the solos do an amazing job of randomizing the results for the organized teams. (The people actually trying to play the map.)

I fail to see why joining a unit is such a travesty.
Apparently, Solos think joining a unit is some massive commitment requiring you to be there all the time, do some stupid paperwork for some "Sergeant Star Commander Useless III" and while there are units that are like that- there are also units that are just chilled out people who show up and play, organize teams and go do things.



From my perspective over here- it looks like the the solos just want to play their FW match however they want, even though they get roflstomped and ***** about it, and at the same time, screw over the people organizing and making an earnest attempt to change the map.
It's the MWO equivalent of that random ****brick the coach foists on your team who just does their own thing, costs you the game, and then *****es about how they lose all the time.

There is a reason they don't allow some random kid off the street to jump into a college football or basketball game.

Yes, this is a team game. Why can't your "team" be the one you are currently dropping with? Just because I am not in a unit doesn't mean I have no idea what I am doing. FW is based off of clans and IS houses, not units, it's not called Unit Warfare. I am on your team if we are in the same House. If I want to fight for Steiner I should be able to.

I was in a unit for a long while. My day job does not allow me to spend two nights a week on mandatory drop practice. It also sucks out all of the fun being told what mech I have to drop in and what build I have to be using, not to mention dealing with the anxiety of being ragged on for not having high damage numbers in a light, compared to the commanders assault mech. I would love to find a casual Steiner unit that isn't run like the military, and where it matters how many times I have visited the units forums that week.

I still want to contribute to an overall goal, not just endless death match over and over, I was promised that was the future and that is why I became a founder so long ago.

Last week I was unable to even make it into a invasion match at all as a solo loyalist. I did get to do scouting, but that gets old quick when that is all there is. So I made a 1 man unit, and felt dirty as hell doing it. Today I disbanded that unit.

Sorry to ruin FW for you and yours.
(ps any casual steiner units out there that aren't srot?)

[ThatGuy539]

Koniving, on 28 April 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

"The General" PanzerMagier totally made that video epic. Like one of the comments says, I would love to hear that voice in a tutorial.

Edit:
PanzerMagier just got himself a character named after him in a megamek campaign I'm doing.

Currently Major Panzer Magier (admittedly just renamed him) is the leading man in a mechanized tracked SRM platoon and ground commander.

Ya, we always love it when he shows up in a match.

[Dee Eight]

They didn't fix the dropdeck...in fact its worse since it seems to be reverting to the wrong type when errors happen (IS player gets clan mechs on an IS drop, or vice versa).

[Cox Devalis]

Thanks a lot, PGI team.
Now can you fix a "Global ceasefire started..." bug?

And now we often get our MWO client crashed while in faction play queue.

And we need to be able to attack 2 planets per attack phase I guess:

Edited by Cox Devalis, 29 April 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Rebel Ace Fryslan]

So Still droppingscout dropdecks on invasion, plz when will you learn how to do clean coding so you arenn't repeating bug 12x a yr.