68 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

It will be a better hill poker due to its ~eye level shoulder hardpoints.

I just think its extremely likely its going to get quirks, PGI knows it has the locked standard engine, they will try to make up for it. Its an objective trait that is more obviously a disadvantage than a locked XL400 that gives you good speed or locked JJs or locked MASC that offer their own advantages.

Again. You may be right and it may get decent quirks. My positon was that it should be able to stand on its own as a viable chassis without them.

[Metus regem]

cazidin, on 26 April 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

Again. You may be right and it may get decent quirks. My positon was that it should be able to stand on its own as a viable chassis without them.

Now if only that could be done for all mechs....

[Gas Guzzler]

dervishx5, on 26 April 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

The descent into madness is a slippery slope, Gas...

I'm just ahead of the curve.

cazidin, on 26 April 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

Again. You may be right and it may get decent quirks. My positon was that it should be able to stand on its own as a viable chassis without them.

Ah, well yeah it would viable in day to day play, if a bit underwhelming. But with the hardpoints, 70 kph mobility, at a 61 damage alpha strike (probably ECM as well), it can definitely dance, I have no question of that, even without any quirks.

I promise, if it is released, I will bring it in one competitive match once it is legal, just because I am that confident.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 26 April 2016 - 02:48 PM.

[Roadkill]

Rules for quirks:

1. Quirks should never be used to balance weapons. Quirks are for balancing variants.
2. Variants should be designed to be balanced without quirks. Only if that fails should quirks be used to balance the variant. The baseline should always be no quirks.
3. If you're pre-quirking variants when they launch, you're admitting that you've failed before you've even tried.

[Gas Guzzler]

Roadkill, on 26 April 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Rules for quirks:

1. Quirks should never be used to balance weapons. Quirks are for balancing variants.
2. Variants should be designed to be balanced without quirks. Only if that fails should quirks be used to balance the variant. The baseline should always be no quirks.
3. If you're pre-quirking variants when they launch, you're admitting that you've failed before you've even tried.

By this logic, all IS mechs are failures because they ALL release with quirks.

[Roadkill]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

By this logic, all IS mechs are failures because they ALL release with quirks.

Yep.

I.e. IS-Clan balance is still screwed. They're just using quirks to patch it up rather than actually dig into the imbalance and fix it.

[cazidin]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

I'm just ahead of the curve.



Ah, well yeah it would viable in day to day play, if a bit underwhelming. But with the hardpoints, 70 kph mobility, at a 61 damage alpha strike (probably ECM as well), it can definitely dance, I have no question of that, even without any quirks.

I promise, if it is released, I will bring it in one competitive match once it is legal, just because I am that confident.

But how will it fare against an Urbanmech?

[Gas Guzzler]

Roadkill, on 26 April 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Yep.

I.e. IS-Clan balance is still screwed. They're just using quirks to patch it up rather than actually dig into the imbalance and fix it.

Well, this is the game we have. You can't hold this mech to a different standard because it's how MWO would be balanced ideally, that's just nonsensical.

[dervishx5]

Going back to the OP:

If we end up seeing the Vulcan because it showed up in some other post, then we can say that the Kingfisher is probable.

It's also highly probable that Russ asked Mr. Bills to write a short story portraying the Kingfisher as dumb and slow because he hates it so much.

Either way the strongest arguments prove nothing so long as the conclusions are not verified by experience.

Edited by dervishx5, 26 April 2016 - 03:00 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

dervishx5, on 26 April 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

It's also highly probable that Russ asked Mr. Bills to write a short story portraying the Kingfisher as dumb and slow because he hates it so much.

No... that's impossible.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 26 April 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

Give it a chance.

Higher hardpoints.
ECM.
Agility quirks.

Will it have more than 3 high hardpoints?

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

To me it seems logical that it will get structure buffs.

The Executioner doesn't get any, the Banshee doesn't get any, the Warhawk doesn't get any that are relevant and it has clearly worse hitboxes than anything they could do to the Kingfisher based on how the art looks.


I'm not convinced that it will get structure quirks, it certainly isn't a forgone conclusion.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimax, on 26 April 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

Will it have more than 3 high hardpoints?





The Executioner doesn't get any, the Banshee doesn't get any, the Warhawk doesn't get any that are relevant and it has clearly worse hitboxes than anything they could do to the Kingfisher based on how the art looks.


I'm not convinced that it will get structure quirks, it certainly isn't a forgone conclusion.

It will definitely have 3, and I think the CT hardpoints will be at about the level the Executioner's are, but I'm not sure. Even if they aren't, the shoulder hardpoints are higher than the Executioners, and the arms aren't as low as the Executioners.

Yeah, the Executioner doesn't get any, it just gets Agility. The Kingfisher is like an Executioner but without JJs and MASC. How would PGI aim to make up for those? Certainly they won't just give the Kingfisher quirks equal to the Executioner when those 2 glaring aspects are missing... I think its pretty likely they give it something extra.

The Warhawk has worse hitboxes, but it also has a lot more firepower... there are other aspects to balance with, not just whether or not a mech has structure quirks or not and how its hitboxes are.

Banshee is an IS mech that has weapon quirks and an unlocked engine, not sure if structure quirks would be needed there.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 26 April 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Never bet on PGI pre-quirking a mech, let alone a Clan one, let alone an Omnimech. It may wallow in quirklessness for months before salvation.

[Xocoyol Zaraoul]

The Kingfisher was one of the original "Zombie mechs," that STD engine is hardly a downside if you play the strengths as they are supposed to. C, E and H have a pair of energy hardpoints in CT.

Edited by Xocoyol Zaraoul, 26 April 2016 - 04:39 PM.

[Roadkill]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

Well, this is the game we have. You can't hold this mech to a different standard because it's how MWO would be balanced ideally, that's just nonsensical.

You know what's nonsensical?

Continuing to repeat the same problem over and over and expect it to magically solve itself.

Which makes more sense: continuing to pre-quirk every Mech released to bring them up to the level of a handful of OP Mechs, or giving negative quirks to that handful so that the rest of the Mechs can function without quirks?

They claim to be doing a full quirk pass. The result of that pass should be ZERO quirks on most Mechs, some minor quirks on a few bad Mechs, and some negative quirks on the handful of OP Mechs.

Anyone want to hold their breath hoping that will happen?

[Gas Guzzler]

Roadkill, on 26 April 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

You know what's nonsensical?

Continuing to repeat the same problem over and over and expect it to magically solve itself.

Which makes more sense: continuing to pre-quirk every Mech released to bring them up to the level of a handful of OP Mechs, or giving negative quirks to that handful so that the rest of the Mechs can function without quirks?

They claim to be doing a full quirk pass. The result of that pass should be ZERO quirks on most Mechs, some minor quirks on a few bad Mechs, and some negative quirks on the handful of OP Mechs.

Anyone want to hold their breath hoping that will happen?

They never claimed that, they only claimed that they would re-do quirks based on mechs changing size.

So hey, if the Kingfisher is released and doesn't need quirks to be balanced, then what are we talking about here? If you think it shouldn't need quirks to be balanced than what is the problem?

You are kind of like expecting things to be balanced differently than they are now, where as I am just assuming they will be balanced how they are now *shrugs* what do you think is more likely?

[Roadkill]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

You are kind of like expecting things to be balanced differently than they are now, where as I am just assuming they will be balanced how they are now *shrugs* what do you think is more likely?

What are you talking about? My quirks comment wasn't even directed at you, I was agreeing with Cazidin.

Any new Mech, the Kingfisher included, needs to be able to function without quirks at launch. If it's so bad that it can't even do that, then it shouldn't be put into the game.

I suspect that the Kingfisher is borderline at best. Its payload is too small for it to be anything other than a meh laser boat. I won't buy it if they do release it, and I wish they'd spend their development time on some other Mech that has a chance of being successful without using the broken-by-default quirk system.

[Gas Guzzler]

Roadkill, on 26 April 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

What are you talking about? My quirks comment wasn't even directed at you, I was agreeing with Cazidin.

Any new Mech, the Kingfisher included, needs to be able to function without quirks at launch. If it's so bad that it can't even do that, then it shouldn't be put into the game.

I suspect that the Kingfisher is borderline at best. Its payload is too small for it to be anything other than a meh laser boat. I won't buy it if they do release it, and I wish they'd spend their development time on some other Mech that has a chance of being successful without using the broken-by-default quirk system.

Again, 61 damage, high hardpoints, expecting decent geometry, 70 kph.. *shrugs*

If you can't make that work without quirks, that is on you.

Sorry, it looked like you had me quoted in the post so I thought you were talking to me?

[McMurl]

the Kingfisher will probably be the last clan omnimech that we get for the current time frame. that STD engine breaks the whole clan balancing scheme that PGI has set up. The mech wouldnt lose speed when it loses a ST and the mech wouldnt die when it loses both ST. PGI will want to avoid figuring that out until the very end. BUT THE TURKINA IS STILL VIABLE PGI PLZ

[Karl Streiger]

grievoussmaug, on 27 April 2016 - 12:47 AM, said:

the Kingfisher will probably be the last clan omnimech that we get for the current time frame. that STD engine breaks the whole clan balancing scheme that PGI has set up. The mech wouldnt lose speed when it loses a ST and the mech wouldnt die when it loses both ST. PGI will want to avoid figuring that out until the very end. BUT THE TURKINA IS STILL VIABLE PGI PLZ

A moment ago i wanted to laugh and say - well yes he can survive a ST destruction without problems and even two with out destruction but that leaves a stick....with no weapons.

But the Kingfisher is badass.

At 90t its in the sweetspot for Assaults
24t Module capacity doesn't sound good for an Assault - but already 17 DHS and full armor....

just running a quick scan - for my brawler style:
Alt B: RA: UAC jam quirk 1 B
Prime RT - 1 E
Alt C. CT - 2E
Prime LT 1M 1E
Prime LA 1 M 1E

For full LaserVomit:
AltC RA 2E
Prime RT 1E
Alt C CT 2E
Alt B LT 2E
Altb B LA 3E

The mounts in CT look similar to the BattleMaster Energy Mounts.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 April 2016 - 01:22 AM.