34 replies to this topic

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

AC20 weight: 12 tons. Plus 2 tons ammo = 14 tons total.

LPL weight 7 tons. Dual LPL's total weight = 14 tons.

I tried to compare AC20's (with 2 tons ammo) to dual LPL's on an even 1:1 tonnage basis.

This is what I got.



Thoughts on this?



edit - correction: inner sphere AC20 weighs 14 tons, with 2 tons ammo it would weigh 16 tons. (I was looking at the C-AC20 on smurfy where I pulled stats)

And McGral pointed out that AC20's can be high mounted, LPL should be hitscan rather than "fast" projectile speed and burn time should be a listed statistic.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 27 April 2016 - 09:40 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

AC20 is 14 tons.

You're thinking about the Clan UAC20 which is 12 tons.

[Ultimax]

I Zeratul I, on 27 April 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

Thoughts on this?

There is a reason Atlas builds take an AC 20 with 2 crummy back up MLAS instead of taking 2 LPLs with machine guns.


The AC 20 is still one of the most powerful short ranged weapons in the game, 20 points of damage on one location, 6 heat with no spread damage.


This comparison is lacking because these weapons serve different functions.

[Mcgral18]

AC20 can also be high mounted (Hunch, ShaqHawk)

LPLs should be listed as Hitscan, as there is no travel speed


It should mention burn time and PP FLD, although .67s isn't much of a burn, it still isn't PP FLD

[Revis Volek]

My thoughts are you cant compare a boat and an airplane, they do different things.


What are you trying to show with this? We could have done this math on our owns in our heads, well most of us, So i really just am at a loss, are you saying LPL's are better then AC20? At what? What ranges? What builds?

[Aresye]

Ultimax, on 27 April 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

There is a reason Atlas builds take an AC 20 with 2 crummy back up MLAS instead of taking 2 LPLs with machine guns.

Well, the Atlas doesn't have any good mounts to place 2 LPLs, but I'm sure (just like every other mech) if it had the hardpoints, the Atlas would be boating as many LPLs as it possibly could.

Mcgral18, on 27 April 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

It should mention burn time and PP FLD, although .67s isn't much of a burn, it still isn't PP FLD

^This

Getting rather annoyed how almost nobody ever mentions burn time in their weapon and balance comparisons.

[lshtaria]

My Marauder is offended at your claim its autocannon isn't high mounted.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 27 April 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

The AC 20 is still one of the most powerful short ranged weapons in the game, 20 points of damage on one location, 6 heat with no spread damage.

The main reason is simply heat, that is really all there is to it.

[Alistair Winter]

I do think all ballistics except AC5s and UAC5s could stand being buffed. It wouldn't destroy the game. And you can say "ermagerds, power creep inflation" and you wouldn't be wrong, but it's just easier to buff AC20 and AC10, maybe AC2 a little bit, instead of nerfing all lasers and SRMs.

AC20s are pretty far from where they once were, anyway. So it's not so much power creep or inflation as toning down previous nerfs. I'd be happy if they improved the ballistics in MWO, and then increased TTK overall by fixing the heat scale.

[xWiredx]

I don't really understand the point, either.

One is front-loaded and one is hitscan. One does 20 damage as soon as it hits, the other you have to keep it on-target for a little more than half a second meaning sometimes you don't end up doing all 22 dmg.

I prefer ballistics to keep cool myself.

[Ultimax]

Aresye, on 27 April 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Well, the Atlas doesn't have any good mounts to place 2 LPLs, but I'm sure (just like every other mech) if it had the hardpoints, the Atlas would be boating as many LPLs as it possibly could.

SRM 6s link up better with AC 20 in both CD time and firing mechanics as they let you fire and twist - and the AC 20 is much friendlier heat wise allowing for superior sustainability.


You would be hard pressed to convince me to take 2x LPLs over an AC 20 on an Atlas brawl build.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Thx for constructive feedback everyone that contributed.

Ultimax, on 27 April 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

This comparison is lacking because these weapons serve different functions.

Revis Volek, on 27 April 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

My thoughts are you cant compare a boat and an airplane, they do different things.

They're both weapons in the same mech game no less.

They serve "different functions"? They do "different things"? No. You're both extremely mistaken.

Aside from lower heat, one might say the AC-20 is inferior in every way. You can argue that an AC-20 is nearer to pinpoint damage but for anyone that has used an AC-20 recently -- I think we all know that the nerfed projectile speed actually makes the AC-20 less accurate than the LPL by a decent margin.

Also I know someone trying to compare weapons and discuss weapon balance in this game using things like facts and statistics is like an alien language on these forums. Most of you prefer anecdotal, arbitrary and subjective based reasonings where you simply say: "THIS THINGS IS OP," and pretend that amounts to fact.

I tend to disagree with that and think people should make more of an effort.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 27 April 2016 - 09:35 AM.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

The main reason is simply heat, that is really all there is to it.

And synergy with SRM 6s, and front loaded damage.

Edited by Ultimax, 27 April 2016 - 09:33 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 27 April 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

And synergy with SRM 6s, and front loaded damage.

It's mostly heat and placement, if you gave the 2 LPLs 6 heat like the AC20 and allowed the Atlas to place them there, I'd almost guarantee it would be LPLs and not an AC20.

[Revis Volek]

I Zeratul I, on 27 April 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

Thx for constructive feedback everyone that contributed.




They're both weapons in the same mech game no less.

They serve "different functions"? They do "different things"? No. You're both extremely mistaken.

Aside from lower heat, one might say the AC-20 is inferior in every way. You can argue that an AC-20 is nearer to pinpoint damage but for anyone that has used an AC-20 recently -- I think we all know that the nerfed projectile speed actually makes the AC-20 less accurate than the LPL by a decent margin.

Also I know someone trying to compare weapons and discuss weapon balance in this game using things like facts and statistics is like an alien language on these forums. Most of you prefer anecdotal, arbitrary and subjective based reasonings where you simply say: "THIS THINGS IS OP," and pretend that amounts to fact.

I tend to disagree with that and think people should make more of an effort.

Its not inaccurate, the pilot can take inaccurate shots but the weapons it self is very accurate, its one projectile instead of hitscan.

I can say a 4x4 truck and a Race car are the same thing too but they are in fact very different when we stop over generalizing them and start to look under the hood.


In that aspect all shooting games are the same because we shoot each other... But we all know that is not true at all. LPL's are not designed to do the same thing as an AC20 or they would have the same cooldown, same burn time, both would be pinpoint and have the same heat.

They do dmg to mechs, thats about all they have in common and like other have said there is no reason to take a hitscan weapon like that on an atlas over an AC20 and SRM's. They work well together and thats the reason they are used together.

No one here is disputing your MATHS or what you are saying its all on point (other then LPL being Hit scan, not projectile and lack of Burn times) but no one said the AC20 was INFERIOR to the LPL across the board because that is a bad comparison and an over generalization. Things dont always play out on paper like they do in the game. BUt if you wanna put 2 lpl on your Atlas over an Ac20 and SRM's then by all means be my guest.

Edited by Revis Volek, 27 April 2016 - 09:45 AM.

[Metus regem]

I Zeratul I, on 27 April 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

AC20 weight: 12 tons. Plus 2 tons ammo = 14 tons total.

LPL weight 7 tons. Dual LPL's total weight = 14 tons.

I tried to compare AC20's (with 2 tons ammo) to dual LPL's on an even 1:1 tonnage basis.

This is what I got.



Thoughts on this?


.

Completely different animals...

When comparing Energy weapons to Ballistics, you have to compare damage/heat/tonnage/ammo.

For instance:

TT IS LPL:

Tonnage: 7t + 5t in DHS (12t Total)
Crits: 2 + 15 for DHS (17 total)
DMG: 9
Heat: 10

TT IS AC-20:

Tonnage 14t+1t ammo+4t DHS (total 15t)
Crits:12 +1 for Ammo+8 for DHS (21 total)
DMG: 20
Heat: 7

So to get the IS LPL to do close to the same damage as the AC 20 for 5 rounds of shooting, you are looking at 24t and 30 crits to get 18 damage, versing 15t and 21 crits to get 20 damage...


That makes the choice a bit more interesting doesn't it?

[cazidin]

For a better comparison he should use 14 tons worth of Medium Lasers to 1 AC20.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Revis Volek, on 27 April 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

Its not inaccurate, the pilot can take inaccurate shots but the weapons it self is very accurate, its one projectile instead of hitscan.

I can say a 4x4 truck and a Race car are the same thing too but they are in fact very different when we stop over generalizing them and start to look under the hood.

In that aspect all shooting games are the same because we shoot each other... But we all know that is not true at all. LPL's are not designed to do the same thing as an AC20 or they would have the same cooldown, same burn time, both would be pinpoint and have the same heat.

They do dmg to mechs, thats about all they have in common and like other have said there is no reason to take a hitscan weapon like that on an atlas over an AC20 and SRM's. They work well together and thats the reason they are used together.

No one here is disputing your MATHS or what you are saying its all on point (other then LPL being Hit scan, not projectile and lack of Burn times) but no one said the AC20 was INFERIOR to the LPL across the board because that is a bad comparison and an over generalization. Things dont always play out on paper like they do in the game. BUt if you wanna put 2 lpl on your Atlas over an Ac20 and SRM's then by all means be my guest.

Essentially you're saying AC-20's can't be compared to LPL's because they're not the same thing.

Neither I nor anyone else in this thread claimed they were.

An LPL has an optimal range of 365 m and an AC-20 has an optimal range of 270 m. You CAN compare them as they're short range weapons the same way that someone might compare PPC's and large lasers -- different categories of long range weapons with similar ranges.

The only question here is why you're making an effort to sabotage attempts to compare LPL's with AC-20's.

Metus regem, on 27 April 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

Completely different animals...

When comparing Energy weapons to Ballistics, you have to compare damage/heat/tonnage/ammo.

For instance:

TT IS LPL:

Tonnage: 7t + 5t in DHS (12t Total)
Crits: 2 + 15 for DHS (17 total)
DMG: 9
Heat: 10

TT IS AC-20:

Tonnage 14t+1t ammo+4t DHS (total 15t)
Crits:12 +1 for Ammo+8 for DHS (21 total)
DMG: 20
Heat: 7

So to get the IS LPL to do close to the same damage as the AC 20 for 5 rounds of shooting, you are looking at 24t and 30 crits to get 18 damage, versing 15t and 21 crits to get 20 damage...

That makes the choice a bit more interesting doesn't it?

So after you critcized me for "trying to compare different things".

You avoided discussing LPL vs AC-20 implementations in this game by talking about something completely different -- namely tabletop stats.

Does that make sense to you, bro?

cazidin, on 27 April 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

For a better comparison he should use 14 tons worth of Medium Lasers to 1 AC20.

I was thinking of making different charts comparing different weapon types on basis of tonnage, heat, dps and other variables. It might be a decent basis for weapon balance discussion.

But it seems kind of pointless. I would expect PGI to already have better weapons balance charts than the one I made left on a clipboard somewhere to be pulled out whenever balance discussions crop up.

...

edit -

Also I wanted to say that after spectating a few matches over the last few weeks I got the feeling that AC-20's were somewhat underpowered. If some of you posting in this thread petitioned PGI to nerf AC-20's I think you made a boo boo.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 27 April 2016 - 10:04 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Not speaking about those two weapons but PPFLD is a pretty major advantage, especially when you jump shoot.

There's also the heat factor which has been mentioned already.

That said, hitscan is also pretty significant. That's why the Gauss Rifle is great - an "almost hitscan" PPFLD no heat 15 damage weapon!

[Hit the Deck]

I Zeratul I, on 27 April 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

edit -

Also I wanted to say that after spectating a few matches over the last few weeks I got the feeling that AC-20's were somewhat underpowered. If some of you posting in this thread petitioned PGI to nerf AC-20's I think you made a boo boo.

Remove AC/20 and cUAC/20's GH limit or increase it to 3 just in case.