34 replies to this topic

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Hit the Deck, on 27 April 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Not speaking about those two weapons but PPFLD is a pretty major advantage, especially when you jump shoot.

There's also the heat factor which has been mentioned already.

That said, hitscan is also pretty significant. That's why the Gauss Rifle is great - an "almost hitscan" PPFLD no heat 15 damage weapon!

AC-20's seem to have been nerfed significantly in the 6 months I was away from the game. The AC-20 slug speed is similar to PPC's where its nerfed enough to make the weapon inaccurate when shooting at moving targets. It is pinpoint damage but its pinpoint in the way PPC's are pinpoint which isn't much of an advantage in the grand scheme of things.

I'm a sad panda no one that uses AC-20's except maybe Bilbo posts on these forums.

AC-20's definitely could use some buffing.

Hit the Deck, on 27 April 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Remove AC/20 and cUAC/20's GH limit or increase it to 3 just in case.

The slow projectile speed is one issue.

Reduced AC-20 hitpoints may be another issue. But that's a separate topic related to gauss and other ballistic weapons being more susceptible to crits.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 27 April 2016 - 10:25 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

I Zeratul I, on 27 April 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

...
AC-20's definitely could use some buffing.

In case you missed something that I just posted:

Hit the Deck, on 27 April 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Remove AC/20 and cUAC/20's GH limit or increase it to 3 just in case.

This will help Mauler's and KGC's brawling ability, and to make the BoomJager a bit scarier.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 27 April 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[cazidin]

I Zeratul I, on 27 April 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

But it seems kind of pointless. I would expect PGI to already have better weapons balance charts than the one I made left on a clipboard somewhere to be pulled out whenever balance discussions crop up.

Hahaha! Aren't we optimistic?

[Revis Volek]

I Zeratul I, on 27 April 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Essentially you're saying AC-20's can't be compared to LPL's because they're not the same thing.

Neither I nor anyone else in this thread claimed they were.

An LPL has an optimal range of 365 m and an AC-20 has an optimal range of 270 m. You CAN compare them as they're short range weapons the same way that someone might compare PPC's and large lasers -- different categories of long range weapons with similar ranges.

The only question here is why you're making an effort to sabotage attempts to compare LPL's with AC-20's.

lol you are funny


You made a chart with NO questions, you just said here they are side by side, thoughts?


I gave my thoughts, you have no real questions, and i will ask again this time in text you maybe see and read...

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO WITH THIS COMPARISON? I'm generally curious? If you are just comparing them for the sake of comparing them then good job i guess.


If you wanna know weather they have been nerfed why dont you just look over the past few months of patch notes? Wouldn't that be the logical place to look rather then just making fancy colored charts and asking to forumites?

But again, i think Ac20 are fine right now. I have no issue killing things with them....if that's what this thread is about. But i do hear peep complain very often about the HSR issues that seem to come with ballistics and PPCS and high ping shooting, etc.

Edited by Revis Volek, 27 April 2016 - 10:35 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

LPL is a tier 1 weapon, especially 3 of them. The AC20 is a tier 2 weapon. Almost everyone agrees the LPL is a better weapon than the AC20.

[Big Tin Man]

Think of it from the receiving end: if you're driving a locust, 2xLPL's are scary. AC20's are instagib death.

And the key stat you're missing from your table is heat per second (1.5 for AC20, 3.58 for two LPL). That matters in a close range brawl, as hot mechs don't deal damage, and overheated mechs are dead mechs.

[kapusta11]

AC20 is better against Oxides.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Big Tin Man, on 27 April 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Think of it from the receiving end: if you're driving a locust, 2xLPL's are scary. AC20's are instagib death.

And the key stat you're missing from your table is heat per second (1.5 for AC20, 3.58 for two LPL). That matters in a close range brawl, as hot mechs don't deal damage, and overheated mechs are dead mechs.

kapusta11, on 27 April 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

AC20 is better against Oxides.

PPC's have a projectile speed of 1200.

Many feel: this is too slow.

What do AC-20's have?



http://mwo.gamepedia.com/Autocannon_20

edit

#1 If a PPC with a 500 m optimal range is too slow with a projectile speed of 1200.

#2 It naturally follows that an AC-20 with a 270 optimal range is too slow with a projectile speed of 650.

#3 This is true on the basis that 270 m is about 50% of 500 m and 650 is about 50% of 1200. Proportionally the figures line up.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 27 April 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

It's mostly heat and placement, if you gave the 2 LPLs 6 heat like the AC20 and allowed the Atlas to place them there, I'd almost guarantee it would be LPLs and not an AC20.

Well, yes that's part of what makes the AC 20 one of the most powerful brawling weapons in the game.


Plus its front loaded, and synchs with SRMs.


Close enough?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c2fd5e253f5f378


You have a 350 STD, a deadside, 17 DHS, an LPL you can zombie with in CT and the arm mounts on an Atlas are no lower than the torso mounted ballistic so you're not losing anything there.

Yeah, if you lose the LT you've lost a lot - but that's mostly true for typical AC20+SRM build anyway - and LPLs don't crit-splode nearly as frequently as the AC 20 does.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 27 April 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

Stuffz

I'm just saying the only reason is heat and the fact you can't stuff 2 LPLs in that right side is the reason people use AC20s over 2 LPLs, which is a very niche case. Not that it isn't a bad thing since that is ballistic's shtick, but that's also what keeps them very limited since that is their single advantage. PPFLD is often ruined by being stupidly slow without any quirks (much like most projectiles in this game) and most mechs being better off combining missiles and a few lasers than trying to strap an AC20 on.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 April 2016 - 03:27 PM.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

Not that it isn't a bad thing since that is ballistic's shtick, but that's also what keeps them very limited since that is their single advantage. PPFLD is often ruined by being stupidly slow without any quirks (much like most projectiles in this game) ...

You mean slow as in velocity?

SMRs are slower than the AC 20 (about 38% slower).


I agree ballistics should have better velocities, I've wanted that for a while now, but if speed is an issue for the AC 20 then its a bigger issue for the slower, higher heat, spread damage SRMs.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

IS AC20 is 14 tons.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 27 April 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

You mean slow as in velocity?

Yes, sure it does sort of sync with the SRMs (though you should probably be firing them within a hair of each other if the enemy is moving laterally form your perspective), the difference is, SRMs make up for that slow velocity and spread with being lightweight and having a much much higher raw DPS which allows them to be much more useful outside of the AS7-S and maybe ON1-VA.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 April 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

My thoughts are you cant compare a boat and an airplane, they do different things.

No they do the same exact thing. Transport people and goods.

You absolutely can compare them.

Planes are way faster and can fly but carry way less and are way less fuel efficient

Boats are way slower and limited to water but carry way more and are way more fuel efficient

See we just compared the two.


Likewise you can also compare the AC20 and LPL because they also do the same thing. Damage.

Edited by Khobai, 27 April 2016 - 09:18 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Well the only issue with comparing stuff is the multiple.

The Ac20 don't deal all the time its damage nor does the pulse Laser.

Have tried some values
First speed flight time to target at long range (270)
Duration of the burn

Alternativ is to use stats - accuracy with ac 20.
Calculate the difference in accuracy and damage dealt - for example 100shots LPL hit - damage dealt is 500 - the value is not very accurate because it includes range drop off and critical damage (i would say critical could be around 3-10% while range ~20%)

Modify the damage values of both weapons and you can compare them - althoug you may increase the value of AC 20 because of PP and impulse

I Zeratul I, on 27 April 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

AC20 weight: 12 tons. Plus 2 tons ammo = 14 tons total.

LPL weight 7 tons. Dual LPL's total weight = 14 tons.

I tried to compare AC20's (with 2 tons ammo) to dual LPL's on an even 1:1 tonnage basis.

This is what I got.

OK using the accuracy of my stats - ~70% damage / hit ratio for the pulse laser plus 60% for AC20...
AC20 vs two LPL are almost equal.
752 vs 737 points in favor of the AC 20

AC20 biggest advantage is pinpoint - fire deflect fire deflcet
while LPL with their short beam duration will still loose damage fighting twisting targets
But LPL has slightly better dps - if there are enough heatsinks (and i use a heat neutral ratio) the LPL can outgun the AC20 - when its face time - over time.
the range of the LPL allows and no ammunition would allow the pilot to go at ranges >400m and to kill the foe by papercuts


Well not using my accuracy formula based on speed - and a 0.4sec time frame - how much distance can the projectile travel in this time - the range to beat is the point where the damage drop of is 50%
Same for the burn duration - how much damage can be delivered in those 0.4sec.

again: 809 vs 729 points - for AC20

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 April 2016 - 11:53 PM.